Are electronic drums... The Devil?

[dohhhhh6]

Hey, I just came from my worship band's rehearsal (fun time, by the way), but today I noticed something.

 

Electronic drums just aren't as groovable as acoustic.

 

It's probably more of a "ya just gotta get used to it" type of thing, but I just couldn't shake the feeling that the groove (which is hard to feel with 4 guitars and 2 bassists and a million vocalists) was just not what it was the day before when I was playing with acoustic drums.

 

Anyone else have similiar feelings towards the portable electronic skins?

 

Just wondering, how many drummers you've played with would switch the electronic drums to acoustic if the performance went down for everyone?

 

If we all have the same feelings, I think an electronic drum ban should be on the way .

[zeronyne]

I think it's more a case of the drummer not being used to the "limitations" of electronic drums: audio not coming from where the stick is hitting, less dynamic resolution, different playing surface.

 

If you think electronic drums can't rock, listen to Terry Bozzio on any Missing Persons album, especially the song "U.S. Drag" from Spring Session M.

 

I'm about to play with a drummer now that uses a Roland kit, but instead of the modeled drums (which I think are fantastic), he's using toms, kick and snare that he sampled himself...the sample set is over two gigabytes. And he can play as tight as I've seen anyone play.

 

And that's really the thing with electronic instruments. You have to spend as much time on technique as any acoustic instrument if you want that kind of expressiveness. I do not have a single patch in any of my 20 or so synths that came out of the box, and I haven't used a purchased sample library (except for imitative instruments like acoustic drums and piano) in years. It's not like I think I can do a better job than the sound designers, but since I tweaked everything to my own taste, I know exactly how it's going to react.

 

With electronic drums, it's even more important for the drummer to really get deep into the edit menus. With the Roland drum modules, you can adjust the velocity curves almost infinitely to adjust the response to your tastes, and you won't find a wider palette of responsive percussion sounds short of a sampler.

 

Electronic drums are not acoustic drums, but they are a legitimate instrument. Just because you can groove on an acoustic doesn't mean you can do the same on an electronic kit, especially with factory patches. It's like expecting a great piano player to automatically smoke on a B3...or an upright bass player to automatically be able to groove on a Jazz Bass. It's really that different.

[SteveC]

Well said.

 

I used to be more of a purist, but I find as I get older, I'm more open to things. I just dumped (or am in the process of dumping) my "traditional" gear and going to a Pod. The next step is a more "uncolored" non-bass type cab.

 

I think that when you learn how to use them, electronic drums are just fine.

[LLroomtempJ]

Never played with anyone on an electric kit, but whenever i've been somewhere that had an electric kit it totally threw me off, the reproduced sound just doesn't cut it.

 

If your excuse for using an electric kit is volume control, you should instead just get a large shield for the acoustic kit and mic it so that the balance is good.

 

My church in brooklyn is huge and the shield combined with 2 area mics and a kick mic made a world of a difference in terms of balance.

 

jason

[sputnik 5]

well coming from a drummer, there are alot of things I can't stand about electric drums. They can never totally replace an acoustic set. While I do like them better than drum machines, they can never match the sound of a real bronze ride cymbal bell, a well placed rimshot, the shhhhh of a sizzle, or the hollow clock of a cross stick. No matter how realistic the samples are, the fact that they are just computer generated sounds comes across to the listener. Whether or not the listener cares or if the convenience of electric set outweighs the real feel of an acoustic set is another matter all together.

 

To answer the question: yes, I have noticed that electric sets just can't groove like acoustic sets can. My two cents.

[zeronyne]

Originally posted by sputnik 5:

To answer the question: yes, I have noticed that electric sets just can't groove like acoustic sets can. My two cents.

Hmmm...based on your answer Sputnik, I think I need to rephrase mine.

 

I DO agree that electronic sets can't groove like acoustic sets can. They groove differently. And I don't think it has anything to do with the kit. Groove has very little to do with the platform. I think a lot of people think of electronic drums as "substitute" acoustic drums. If you do (as a listener or a player), they will never be "good enough".

 

But as I said, it's not a matter of quality. They are a different instrument altogether. To me, it's like asking whether a set of acoustic drums can't groove as well as a Strat. Apple and oranges. Again, if you are trying to replace an acoustic kit with an electronic kit, but you can only see how the electronic kit is different than an acoustic kit, then it will never work out. I don't think anyone is qualified to say it's the medium instead of the player until the player has had as much experience on electronic as (s)he has had on acoustic.

 

Speaking of which, I saw Sheila E about 5 years ago doing some sort of clinic playing a trap kit off of a pedal and a Roland Pad 80. She grooved, trust me.

[ChrisOfDoom]

I just think they don't have the same personality as a real accoustic set. The flexibility in sounds would be nice though. One of my drummers hates them because he thiks they are cheating.

 

I don't like the stock sounds that they make, they just sound too electronic...

 

For rock music anyways, nothing beats a well tuned accoustic set IMO.

[davebassman]

I just bought a roland kit for my school, mainly for the volume control. Using a shield etc isn't an option, we can't make a lot of noise due to the paper thin walls.

 

Another advantage for school is being able to record the kit as MIDI info, this makes it easier to fix any timing error. The groove factor isn't really a concern, the mojority of our kids are beginners.

 

The electronic kit also gives us a range of instruments that we couldn't afford to buy.

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

I'm sure back in the day there were those that said the electric guitar and the electric bass were the fifth and sixth seal of the advent of Armaggeddon.

[ChrisOfDoom]

Originally posted by Social Critic:

I'm sure back in the day there were those that said the electric guitar and the electric bass were the fifth and sixth seal of the advent of Armaggeddon.

Then we chalk up electric drums as the seventh, time for the apocalypse baby.

[Gruuve]

As a drummer as a well as a bassist, I'd have to absolutely agree with zeronyne. E-drums are a different instrument than acoustic drums...both have their place. I play both by the way...a fantastic candy apple red set of Premier Projectors and a Pintech pad kit with Yamaha DTX something or other brain. That Premier acoustic kit is LOUD...even when you play it softly, it's LOUD...my neighbors would kick us out of the neighborhood if I played that kit here at home, which is unfortunately sitting in my attic in cases right now.

 

Comparing the two, each has their place. Ever tried recording e-drums? It's nearly fool-proof...you just have to find or create the right patch. At least some percentage of the sounds are fantastic...I mean they are samples of real acoustic kits, not electronically generated garbage. The trick is putting together patches that fit the style of music AND the drummer's technique well...just like creating the right patch on a bass or guitar effects processor.

 

Here's something very cool that you can do with electronic drums that you typically cannot with acoustic drums (unless you have some awefully sophisticated setup): sit down at the kit and play a rhythm, phrase, sometimes even almost an entire song into the sound module's built-in sequencer. Did you follow what I mean? I hate tapping little finger-size pads to enter a drum part one note at a time...yuck (even though I have two drum machines). With the Yamaha brain on my electronic kit, you can put it in "record" mode, set some parameters (measures, time sig, quanitization if any, temp, etc.), push a button to start the click track, play a drum part into the sequencer, then stop "record" mode. This is a pretty awesome capability...and it sounds more like "real drums" vs entering the parts on a drum machine-type interface.

 

I do find that I play the e-kit quite different than I play the acoustic kit. But, I also find that I take parts of each back to the other. For instance, I mastered choking cymbals with the same hand I've hit it with on the electronic kit (I used to hit with one hand and choke with the other on acoustic kit). Now that I've mastered it on the e-kit, I know what I was doing wrong on the acoustic kit...cymbals too loose! Tighten those suckers up with 3-4 felt washers and bingo...the movement is damped enough that I can hit the cymbal with a downward motion then grab it to choke it with an upward motion of the same hand (what this means is that it's now possible to hit/choke different cymbals quickly with different hands...I don't know if this is making any sense...). Luckily, cymbals sound exactly the same whether they flop around or their motion is damped.

 

Final thought: "groove" is in the player, not the instrument. If an electronic kit is not grooving where an acoustic kit was (or vice versa), it's not the kit, it's that the drummer isn't used to playing the kit. It sounds simple, but imagine if you played two different basses and the fret spacings and string spacings were totally different between the two ...would take some getting used to, eh?

 

Dave

[ihategarybettman]

Being a roots-music type, I personnally don't care for them, but I can see them (and drum machines) being perfect for certain types of music, such as dance/hip hop oriented grooves. Actually, I'd love to incorporate a couple of electronic toms into my acoustic kit for variety and sampling purposes; however, I'd keep my current snare and bass drums because I don't care for the responsiveness or feel of e-snares or bass drums.

[SteveC]

I'm kinda going through this with my new Pod. I liek it very much - everything in one package. I think it sounds good. I set up the SWR model and compared it to my SWR head and it sounded really close. I know they won't be exact, but they are close. The convience is very appealing to me. Only one thing to plug in instead of a tuner, compressor, any effects, preamp, DI, etc.

 

I know drums are different because of the feel, etc., but I would think in some situations, the ability to change between different style kits and tunings would be nice.

[davebrownbass]

Electronic Drums = "The Devil"

 

No Way!!!!!!

 

In fact, in church praise bands especially, I LOVE electronic drums.

 

YOU CAN TURN THEM DOWN!!!!!!

 

Although the $4000 Rolands are the only ones that really sound great, as far as I know.

[zeronyne]

Originally posted by davebrownbass:

Although the $4000 Rolands are the only ones that really sound great, as far as I know.

Again, this is my point. Just getting a prepackaged kit and playing it is the same as buying an all in one guitar/strap/amp package and not selecting strings, action, amp settings, etc, and just playing it.

 

Even though the dynamic range of modeling is usually greater than a pad is likely to transmit, a great sample set still can sound more realistic in the right hands with the right adjustments. There is a prepackaged set called DFH Superior that has 46 different samples per drum at different velocity levels, and they blend through a very complex interection engine...both crossfading and filtering.

 

But again, I think this is beside the point. If you want to sound like an grooving acoustic kit, I say get an acoustic kit and learn how to groove. If you get an electronic kit as a substitute for an acoustic kit due to factors beyond your control, then either realize it's a compomise, or, better yet, spend some time and learn it like a new instrument.

[getz out]

The product is of concern, not the tools used.

 

I've heard plenty of cats rock on electric kits. I've heard plenty of fools trainwreck on nice Ludwig acoustic sets.

 

One of the drummers in my current band sounds good any any kit you put him on. Love it. I'm sure he'd rock on an electric kit.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by getz76:

One of the drummers in my current band...

You have more than one?!! Oh, the fear...

 

Alex

[getz out]

Yes, but they don't play at the same time.

 

One band is now rotating two drummers. This will likely end in November.

 

Another band only has one drummer that I'd like to rotate out.

 

The final (experimental) band has only one drummer.

[wraub]

Originally posted by getz76:

The final (experimental) band...

This remonds me of a recent headline in The Onion-

 

"Experimental band theoretically good."

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[wraub]

I have heard many players swing, rock, and groove their way around an e-kit.

It's all with the drummer.

The right player can rock the box the drums came in.

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[...]

My biggest beef with electronic drums is being able to hear them. I've played with a drummer who used a Roland V-Drums setup. It was fine unless the club sound guy couldn't figure out what I meant by, "Absolutely KILL me with the electronic drums in my monitor. No really... louder. No, louder still..." Bastards.

 

If everyone can hear the electronic kit well enough, there isn't any reason why you shouldn't be able to groove along mightily with one another.

[The Bear Jew]

Drums are drums, electronic or otherwise.

 

If you can groove on one kind, you can groove on any kind. It's just a matter of familiarity, competence and practice.

 

Electronic drums are not the devil.

 

I am the devil.

[saxofunk]

My experience with electronic drums is pretty much along the line of Bumpcity's statement...

 

Unless there is a good PA/Monitor system and a capable soundman, it is very easy to not have enough drums for the rest of the band to hear.

 

At my church we started 5 years ago with electronic drums and real cymbals. The snare was replaced with an acoustic within 6 months, due to our main drummers side stick technique - which reinforces Zeronyne's point about learnnig different techniques.

 

Then, after 2 years of repairing and replacing the kick pad we still had double trigger problems that kept arising, so we replaced it with an acoustic drum and trigger.

 

The toms are still electric.

 

Now, with a new builing on the horizon, an acoustic set is in the new music budget.

 

Due to the different technique and the time it takes to learn how to program the machine, it makes more sense to me for a church to have an acoustic set (and the beloved shield).

[Fred TBP]

One of the drummers I worked with a few years back is on call in Manhattan for talk shows and dates where the regular drummer is a no-show or bails at the last minute. He travels with a Roland e-kit, a snare, a seat, a couple of stands, sticks and brushes. Producers and engineers love him because his stuff is easy to interface into a mixing console and he's added samples from his acoustic kits to his sound library. Makes a good living at it, works about 6-10 days a month. Although he can't take his stuff on the subway yet, he can cart it in himself and setup in 20 minutes.

 

As for the sound, it isn't exact, but it's darn close. When mixed down, it's almost impossible to tell the difference.

 

And yes, he can play regular drums.

But he gets more work with the Roland.

[jeremy c]

Electronic drums can sound pretty good in the studio.

 

But as far as saving time, it usually seems to take longer to find the sound that they want than it would take to mike a normal set.

 

Live, often an electronic drum is louder than a traditional set because the drummer is not used to hearing himself come from a source other than a drumset which surrounds him.

 

The lack of variety of snare drum dynamics is what bothers me, but of course there is a time and place for every sort of instrument.