Mighty sound from a couple well-placed little boxes?

[music-man]

Has anyone experimented with using two (or more) small cabs spread out on a stage, instead of the usual mountain-o-speakers?

 

The other night, I came home from work, and my wife was listening to the stereo, but had neglected to turn on one of the speakers (we use my powered monitors as our speakers). Not surprisingly, it sounded like crap, and I grumbled as much as soon as I walked in the door. I turned on the other speaker, and of course, it sounded much better. My wife said, “Oh - I wondered why it was so soft.” Yeah - “soft” ... but something else too: The single-speaker sound WAS softer, but it was mostly LOWS that seemed to be missing. Once I added the second speaker, the bottom end filled in - and much more than the high end. (Incidentally, it was a mono signal: Books-on-Tape.) This got me thinking that something interesting happens when you “spread out” lows in a room.

 

My theory is that it's more psychoacoustic than a function of speaker coupling. Here's why: listen to your Walkman, with one headphone off. Then put the missing phone back on. Most of what is affected is the bottom end, right? You don't lose nearly as much of things like drums/guitars/vox in a mix ... but you lose nearly all the bass. (At least I do with my Walkman.)

 

So ... I'm wondering whether perhaps this can be applied to a live sound situation - would I get more boost for the buck by leaving my “big rig” at home, and just setting up a little 80W WorkingMan's 10 on one side of a stage, with an extension 1x10 on the other side of the stage?

 

[i know, “try it,” right? Well, I don't have a 1x10 extension speaker.]

 

Thoughts?

[jeremy c]

Well, at one time in my career I had two 15's on one side of the stage and an 18 and a 10 on the other.

 

I heard reports that it was really loud out there in audience-land (and I could see people pushed up against the back wall by the sound waves) but of course I could only hear the cabinet I was standing in front of.

[Thomas Wilburn]

I always thought it would be fun, when I had the money and the roadies and the engineering to do it, to get about 20 15-watt guitar practice amps, different ones that I liked the sound of, and stack them all up into a wall of little amps. I don't know what it would sound like, or how efficient it would be, but I think it would be fun.

[lug]

SMALL cabs? Try a couple of these (after you rob a bank)

 

http://www.sunfire.com/images/primary_TrueSubwooferEQSigPR.jpg

specs:

2700-watt amp featuring patented Tracking Downconverter power supply

Frequency response: 16 Hz to 100 Hz (+0, -3 dB)

Measurement microphone and automatic internal contour compensation keeps it that way

Greater than 116 dB peak SPL with room gain

Input coupling is optical and accepts balanced, standard and high-level inputs

Bore 10 inches - stroke 2.35 inches (over 360 cubic inches total air volume displacement)

Crossover points variable from 30 Hz to 100 Hz

Input level (volume) control

Phase continuously adjustable 0° to 180°

Passive 70 Hz 6 dB per octave hi-pass line level output for satellite loudspeakers

Dimensions: 13" by 13" by 13"

[Bob Gollihur]

I know what you mean, but I would doubt 80 watts through two spaced speakers could compete with a larger rig (in watts and cabs) all in one place. One issue would seem to be listener placement, since in order to have the walkman theory apply one would have to be equally between the speakers, yes?? To my knowledge and IME, identical cabs stacked, vertical array in alignment, produces an improvement in overall gain.

 

But I'm no acoustical engineer, just a bass player...

[getz out]

Dunno, Ken.

 

Seems like it would work well in a controlled environment, but in the nasty acoustics of your average NYC club, it could get ugly.

[Jimbroni]

I don't think your band members would appreciate two cabs on stage, bass tends to mask other frequencies and they will not be able to hear what they are playing. The next thing you know the whole band is playing at 11, and you get what happened to Jeremy.

 

Here's a little wave theory for ya. The lower you go two things happen wavelength gets longer and the waves become more omni-directional or monopole in nature. -Wavelength issue increases the chance of interference and standing waves in small areas/distances between speakers. -Since Bass freqs are omni directional and do not attenuate very easily there is really no need for more than one source. But higher freqs can definetly benefit from multiple speakers as they are weaker dipole/cardioid like waves and need all the help they can get. If there is enough space in the venue and alot room between speakers Bass can benefit from more source, usually its mixed in the PA at this point.

[_Sweet Willie_]

A couple of our soloist members use two smaller cabs, but I'm not sure how they arrange them on stage. I also don't know what they do when playing in a band situation. However:

 

Max Valentino was using one of the SWR 1x12 combos with a 1x12 extension cab.

 

Steve Lawson was using two AccuGroove Tri-110 cabs (I think).

 

You can do really cool stuff w/ delay effects when you've got speakers spaced apart.

 

Peace.

--s-uu

[Jimbroni]

I've noticed what you're talking about with mixes thinning out when turning off a channel tho.

 

Thinking out loud now.

It could be that most often bass is mixed right in middle of the stereo field or just off center and the bass drum is on the other side just off center. You probably could have noticed some other things missing as well like a certain guitars or cymbals. Also, since you have two ears, and only one speaker instead of two speakers for two ears you lose the three dimensional aspect of a mix.

[Jimbroni]

Sweet Willie reminded me of our all time hero.

JACO used to do this he'd put an effect like a slap back delay on one and run the other clean. I'm not sure how he spaced his amps out though.

[music-man]

Originally posted by Jimbroni:

I don't think your band members would appreciate two cabs on stage, bass tends to mask other frequencies and they will not be able to hear what they are playing.

Interesting - my experience has been that guitarists and singers don't gripe about my stage volume, so long as the mids and highs in my sound are under control. As for the "multiple cab" concerns ... I've been fortunate enough to work with people who mostly think about sound quality; I like to think I could plug into a toilet bowl, so long as it sounded good. Note that I was thinking in terms of SMALL boxes, not setting up an array of 18s around the room.

 

Originally posted by Jimbroni:

Here's a little wave theory for ya. The lower you go two things happen wavelength gets longer and the waves become more omni-directional or monopole in nature. -Wavelength issue increases the chance of interference and standing waves in small areas/distances between speakers. -Since Bass freqs are omni directional and do not attenuate very easily there is really no need for more than one source. But higher freqs can definetly benefit from multiple speakers as they are weaker dipole/cardioid like waves and need all the help they can get. If there is enough space in the venue and alot room between speakers Bass can benefit from more source, usually its mixed in the PA at this point.

Perhaps I should have been more specific - my thought was to come to a gig with, say, a couple VL108s or Acme LowBs. Set them up (in back) on either side of the drummer. True enough - if you're running through the house, it's a different game - (insert here all threads r.e. "why do I need a big rig"). But many (smaller, and even some larger) clubs I've played have the mains lofted above the stage, and rely to a good degree on amp/stage volume for everything but vox. Phase cancellation might be a problem - but this seems pretty subtle for a club setting - particularly because the rooms are rarely symmetrical ... and hopefully you have bodies soaking up the reflections. (Although then again I do notice a major bass-boost when I sit near the wall of a club, and it isn't always pretty).

 

The other variable is that low frequency waves decline in amplitude (volume) more quickly as they travel. (The further you get from an outdoor show, the less bottom you'll hear ... but that cowbell will clank for miles!) So perhaps multiple boxes dispersed in the room, with less volume might well be as efficient as a single big/loud box?

[SteveC]

This thought has crossed my mind as well. It seems good in theory. Kind of a surround sound thing - bass coming at you from all over. You may have better luck if instead of an extenion cab you used say another WM10. Those things are very loud an dgood soundign little boxes, aren't they?

 

I think it would be cool for a small/medium room where you don't need piles of volume. Also great for others in the band being able to hear and feel you better if there is a cab/amp right by them.

 

Of course, bass isn't very directional, at least not to the extent of a guitar amp or trumpet, things like that. I also think there must be more to the "vertical stacking" idea than spreading cabs out. The new Bose system places a lot on the vertical pole speaker thing for even dispersion of the higher frequencies. I am guessing there is something to it.

[music-man]

Originally posted by SteveC:

You may have better luck if instead of an extenion cab you used say another WM10. Those things are very loud an dgood soundign little boxes, aren't they?

Yup. I was thinking perhaps the boost in output (from lower impedance) would allow me to cut out that extra 10 lbs of cartage ... but you may be right.

[Jimbroni]

The other variable is that low frequency waves decline in amplitude (volume) more quickly as they travel. (The further you get from an outdoor show, the less bottom you'll hear ... but that cowbell will clank for miles!)

Actually that is a very false statement. Low frequencies do not attenuate as fast as high frequencies with distance. I'm actually an acoustician for the automotive industry. This is my field of study. Actually google "dan russell" he was my teacher and has one of the best sites on the net for acoustics if you're interested.

 

Interesting - my experience has been that guitarists and singers don't gripe about my stage volume, so long as the mids and highs in my sound are under control. As for the "multiple cab" concerns ... I've been fortunate enough to work with people who mostly think about sound quality; I like to think I could plug into a toilet bowl, so long as it sounded good. Note that I was thinking in terms of SMALL boxes, not setting up an array of 18s around the room.

Highs and mids will not interfere with other highs and mids as easily as low end will. It may confuse you're band members 'cause they're not used to your bass being more audible, but it will not have an impact on their volume.

The reason I said multiple cabs will mask out your band members is because most likely you'd have to put the cabs near them. Low end always dominates the basilar membrane in the ear. This has to do with how our ears are fundamentally designed and I'm not a biologist so I can't expain much better without consulting some of my notes. Then again it takes a significant distance to get outside of whats called the near field where sound is incoherent(lacking definition) for low end so there may be little impact. There's alot of factors.

[music-man]

Originally posted by Jimbroni:

Actually that is a very false statement. Low frequencies do not attenuate as fast as high frequencies with distance. I'm actually an acoustician for the automotive industry. This is my field of study. Actually google "dan russell" he was my teacher and has one of the best sites on the net for acoustics if you're interested.

Really? That's a cool job. I studied physics in college, but it was ten years ago and I never finished the degree - so I'll happily concede that you've got more juice.

 

But regardless of all that juice, I'm perplexed.

 

If you take a low frequency tone, and a high frequency tone of equal energy, and walk away from the source, you're saying that you'll hear the low-frequency pitch further away than the high?

 

This is completely at odds with everyday experience. Can you elaborate?

[Whappo]

Here's something that has nothing to do with small, but everything with cabs on either side of the stage.

 

The artist: Larry Kimpell (George Duke, Larry Carlton, Boney James, Branford Marsalis, Everett Harp, Jonathan Butler, etc.)

 

Hes currently on tour with Frankie Beverly and Maze. Frankie, it seems, likes cabs on both sides of the stage, so what do they have? One El Whappo & one Whappo Jr. per side; talk about overkill.

 

Mark

AccuGroove.com

[Jimbroni]

If you take a low frequency tone, and a high frequency tone of equal energy, and walk away from the source, you're saying that you'll hear the low-frequency pitch further away than the high?

Yes. and this is even more noticeable under water.

the reason is high frequencies moves air back and forth more quickly and thus as it travels it looses energy more quickly due to the inertia of air molecules.

 

But the key to what you're saying doesn't have to do with distance, but equal energy. Bass requires way more energy to start with due to the amount of air that it needs to move. Thats why I have a 350 w eden and my guitarist has an 80 watt fender.

 

To further the point have you heard of the doppler effect. The next time you hear an ambulance go by notice how the sound changes as it gets closer more high end will appear, as it gets farther away you hear more low end. Thus the veeeeeoooooohhm sound of say an automobile flying by.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Hey Whappo,

 

Although Steve may eventually say something himself, are you able to verify that he uses a couple of AccuG Tri-110s for his solo gigs that are spaced apart?

 

Also, can you add anything to the discussion concerning low frequency and high frequency volume and dispersion?

 

Thanks, man!

 

Peace.

--SW

[ClarkW]

Overall SPL issues aside, the idea of having your sound come from multiple sources actually works against the listener's experience in some ways. Because we have two ears located a small distance from each other, we actually learn how to localize the origin of sound sources pretty quickly in our lives. Being able to identify visually with the origin of the sound helps in clarity.

 

Think about it: when you watch a movie in surround sound, do they make the actor's voice come out of all 5 speakers at once? No. On the contrary, the whole point of surround sound is to create the illusion of location so that your brain thinks that there are two people standing right there in your living room, or right behind you. If the voices came from everywhere, your brain would get mixed up. We adapt pretty well, but you're still losing clarity.

 

That's why stereo sound (Left and Right channels) was invented in the first place: to create the illusion of location. And it does a pretty good job of it, especially if the listener is sitting in the sweet spot where they are pretty much equidistant from the left and right speakers, but also close enough to those speakers for a noticeable difference in the two channels to be perceived. If you're standing right next to a boombox, it's pretty cool, but if you're 50 feet away, it may as well be mono because the 2 feet separating the left and right speakers is negligible.

 

That's why stereo sound isn't usually as effective in live concerts. Not enough of the audience is actually sitting in or near the sweet spot. To everyone else, they are hearing so much of one channel that the effect is lost, or they are far enough away that they can't tell the difference, or even worse, they are getting one channel straight on, but catching the other channel after it has bounced off a few walls and it's arriving much later, creating a hideous pseudo-reverb. This is what I like to call, "sounding crappy."

 

On the other hand, imagine watching a barbershop quartet, or a classical ensemble, or someone playing acoustically. If you're close enough, the sound comes from different directions and your ears do a great job of separating the sound and it sounds brilliant. If you're farther away, the sound is coming from the same general direction, so any delayed sound waves (via reflection) are still going to be relatively consistent instead of coming from speaker sources 50 feet or more apart.

 

That's why I personally would discourage you from multiple speaker placement. While bass frequencies are somewhat less directional than higher frequencies, that makes it all that much more important that you try to help the audience identify a sound source for them to lock in with.

 

Just my semi-educated opinion.

[music-man]

Originally posted by Jimbroni:

But the key to what you're saying doesn't have to do with distance, but equal energy. Bass requires way more energy to start with due to the amount of air that it needs to move. Thats why I have a 350 w eden and my guitarist has an 80 watt fender.

Right. I think this is where we agree. And my thinking is that I might be able to get by with a lot less power, and a lot smaller cabinets, if I put a couple small (i.e. lower energy) low-frequency sound sources in a couple places, instead of depending on one bigger, high-watt, high-weight package.

 

Originally posted by Jimbroni:

To further the point have you heard of the doppler effect. The next time you hear an ambulance go by notice how the sound changes as it gets closer more high end will appear, as it gets farther away you hear more low end. Thus the veeeeeoooooohhm sound of say an automobile flying by.

Actually, the Doppler effect is the result of the shift in frequency that results from the movement of a sound source - first toward, and then away from the listener. Imagine a box on a car, emitting a sound at 1 Khz. Put the car in motion headed straight for you, at a velocity of 100 mph. The sound waves will be arriving at your ear more frequently than if the speaker was stationary, due to the the additional movement of the sound source. And higher frequency means higher pitch. Conversely, once the car goes by you, the sound waves will be arriving at your ear less frequently than they would if the speaker were stationary. Lower frequency means lower pitch. THIS is what causes the pitch shift ... (and, incidentally, the color difference, or "redshift" among stars that are moving toward/away from earth - oops, but I digress)...

[Jimbroni]

You're right about the doppler effect.

[Lawnmower8]

Didn't Phil Lesh from the Grateful Dead experiment with lots of little cabinets spread around the stage?

[alexclaber]

Why do all the interesting (to me anyway!) threads pop up when I'm not around?

 

Originally posted by music-man:

Once I added the second speaker, the bottom end filled in - and much more than the high end. (Incidentally, it was a mono signal: Books-on-Tape.) This got me thinking that something interesting happens when you “spread out” lows in a room.

 

My theory is that it's more psychoacoustic than a function of speaker coupling. Here's why: listen to your Walkman, with one headphone off. Then put the missing phone back on. Most of what is affected is the bottom end, right? You don't lose nearly as much of things like drums/guitars/vox in a mix ... but you lose nearly all the bass.

I think you're experiencing two different phenomena with the same end result. My take on it, is that using two speakers rather than one will cause acoustic coupling at very low frequencies and the doubling of LF output due to adding the extra speaker (ignoring coupling) will cause room loading to become more significant. Also, by dispersing the apparent sources of the mid and high frequencies (I know it's mono but subtle differences, phase shifts and reverb will give them impression of the mids and highs to be somewhat spread out) they'll be less likely to mask the low frequencies.

 

With the headphones, I believe it's psychoacoustic. Your brain is used to hearing highs and mids in just one ear, it happens all the time in nature, and that's how it determines where sound is coming from. But because most low frequency sounds in nature are omnidirectional (because it would be rare for LF to come from a large enough to give it directionality) your brain cannot compute the fact its hearing bass in one ear but not the other. A lot of this is down to the way your head will block mids and highs to they do't get to the ear in 'shadow' but the lows won't be blocked.

 

Originally posted by Jimbroni:

I don't think your band members would appreciate two cabs on stage, bass tends to mask other frequencies and they will not be able to hear what they are playing.

IME, bass doesn't tend to mask mid and highs anywhere near as easily as the reverse happens. I've been googling this but haven't found the info yet to back it up. But I've heard it all too often with loud guitarists!

 

Originally posted by Jimbroni:

But higher freqs can definetly benefit from multiple speakers as they are weaker dipole/cardioid like waves and need all the help they can get. If there is enough space in the venue and alot room between speakers Bass can benefit from more source, usually its mixed in the PA at this point.

I wouldn't say highs and mids are weaker, they are just more challenging to disperse. The modern approach in SR is to try to disperse highs and mids rather than to control lows. Personally I think this is a lazy way out, which causes lots of bad sounding phase cancellations in the midrange. I guess most sound engineers don't want to erect 40' high bass line arrays.

 

Originally posted by music-man:

The other variable is that low frequency waves decline in amplitude (volume) more quickly as they travel. (The further you get from an outdoor show, the less bottom you'll hear ... but that cowbell will clank for miles!)

That most be one mean cowbell! I've never noticed this in practice and everything I've heard, and the physics behind it, points towards highs and mids being attenuated more. That's why if you stand right at the front at a big gig and inline with the speaker stacks the high end is really harsh and simply too loud, because if the highs aren't goosed, it'll sound dull further back in the crowd.

 

I've noticed the way bass carries on a number of occasions. I used to live about 1 mile from the Greenbelt Festival's venue and all you could hear was this thumping low end. Likewise at Glastonbury Festival as you got away from the stages into the camping areas you could just hear the bass booming away, and again where I work overlooking Hyde Park (Chilis playing there this week - I'm going hopefully, and should see them soundcheck from on high! :-)) watching Shania Twain's band soundcheck last hear and just hearing constant four on the floor kick and nothing else!

 

Originally posted by SteveC:

I also think there must be more to the "vertical stacking" idea than spreading cabs out. The new Bose system places a lot on the vertical pole speaker thing for even dispersion of the higher frequencies. I am guessing there is something to it.

Yeah, I think there definitely is. But it's to encourage the mids and highs to only disperse in a planar fashion so they maintain more volume as you walk away from them. Unfortunately the Bose system is way too small to control bass dispersion and their subwoofers are rubbish.

 

Originally posted by Jimbroni:

Low end always dominates the basilar membrane in the ear. This has to do with how our ears are fundamentally designed and I'm not a biologist so I can't expain much better without consulting some of my notes.

I'd like to know more about this!

 

Originally posted by ClarkW:

That's why I personally would discourage you from multiple speaker placement. While bass frequencies are somewhat less directional than higher frequencies, that makes it all that much more important that you try to help the audience identify a sound source for them to lock in with.

I totally agree. Coherency is one of the most fundamental things for helping people hear your bass, and having a near point or line source helps immeasurably.

 

Originally posted by Lawnmower8:

Didn't Phil Lesh from the Grateful Dead experiment with lots of little cabinets spread around the stage?

He may have done, but he's more known for using line arrays in the "Wall Of Sound". IIRC there was no PA system and each instrument had a stack of speakers on each side of the stage. Like the Bose concept but in stereo and with big enough towers to control dispersion of even the lowest fundamentals. Phil's stacks consisted of about 25 JBL 1x15" cabs, so each tower was 40' high and beamed every frequency right down to the low E fundamental out in a planar rather than spherical fashion. It may not have had the ooomph and thump that modern SR has (great for kickdrums but not for us) but I bet it sounded so clear and tight and deep. I would love to hear an array like that done with modern technology, it would sound amazing!

 

I do my best to achieve a small line array with my vertically stacked Acme B2s. They keep the dispersion planer down to just below 300Hz, so that's most of the musical content of the bass. I'd love to get another one or two cabs and extend the stack upwards to play big gigs without PA systems.

 

Alex

[Jimbroni]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Jimbroni:

Low end always dominates the basilar membrane in the ear. This has to do with how our ears are fundamentally designed and I'm not a biologist so I can't expain much better without consulting some of my notes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I'd like to know more about this!

I was waiting for you to chime in Alex.

 

Anyway I did some looking into some seminar notes from a sound quality course I took. As to why Bass masks high end.

Lets start with an image of the basilar membrane.

Its a ribbon with a fat base and the tapers to a point. Now curl it up like a snail shell with the pointy end in the middle just floating unattached. The fat end is attached to the middle ear mechanisms. So imagine for simplification flat bar clamped at one end and free at the other. If you superimpose one short high freq wave on the bar starting at the base it only take up a very short distance on the bar near the clamp. But a long low freq wave will take up the entire bar. That is what causes masking. That said the low freq peak amplitude is going to closer to the end away from the high end(imagine a tear drop shaped envelope) so it doesn't totally destroy the high end just messes with its clarity. Sort of like when you have too high of a noise floor and it messes with you stereo image. Now if you start raising the freq of the low end signal till it gets closer to the high end it will just over take the high all together, this is called the critical band. As as you're loud guitar example goes, there is something to else consider. Our ear canals have a natural resonance just like any other canal or tube will have. Its usually between 1500 and 3000 hz it varies from person to person, but its always in that range. So guitar freqs excite the membrane more than bass freqs do from the start.

 

I heard an audio test demonstrating masking of a 2000 hz tone by a 1200 hz tone, it sounded like a magical dispearing act. You can also mask tones with broadband noise, but this requires some equation I can't find to determine the critical band width.

 

Hopefully this isn't too terribly written, I'm not a good writer, but I'm decent engineer.

 

Its nice to talk someone who interested in acoustics. Its a fun field.

[57pbass]

Back in the 70's I played in a band that had two drummers. At that time we had a very large following and many hands to help us move gear...

I had two Alembic double 15 bass bins and an SVT.

I would set up one cab one each side of the stage.. one cab behind each drummer.....see pix

http://a3.cpimg.com/image/AF/F5/35037103-5f54-017F0200-.jpg

it was huge crystal clear and very balanced sound...did I say loud.

We actually played in bars with all this gear but the band had a great sound...All JBL's and lots of power....loud but clear.

 

It worked back then ..its not quite the same as the Workingman and a second cab from a power standpoint but I always got great results from that set up....

[wraub]

Nice looking rig there.

One question, though: was it loud?

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[music-man]

Originally posted by C.Alexander Claber:

With the headphones, I believe it's psychoacoustic. Your brain is used to hearing highs and mids in just one ear, it happens all the time in nature, and that's how it determines where sound is coming from. But because most low frequency sounds in nature are omnidirectional (because it would be rare for LF to come from a large enough to give it directionality) your brain cannot compute the fact its hearing bass in one ear but not the other. A lot of this is down to the way your head will block mids and highs to they do't get to the ear in 'shadow' but the lows won't be blocked.

WOW. That makes total sense, and is beautifully explained. (By the way - is it true?) If so, then having extra little bassboxes in a live room wouldn't have the same psychoacoustic effect, since the bass is dispersed and less source-specific anyway (i.e. - you wouldn't be hearing it it in just one ear).

 

Originally posted by C.Alexander Claber:

That most be one mean cowbell! I've never noticed this in practice and everything I've heard, and the physics behind it, points towards highs and mids being attenuated more. That's why if you stand right at the front at a big gig and inline with the speaker stacks the high end is really harsh and simply too loud, because if the highs aren't goosed, it'll sound dull further back in the crowd.

 

I've noticed the way bass carries on a number of occasions. I used to live about 1 mile from the Greenbelt Festival's venue and all you could hear was this thumping low end. Likewise at Glastonbury Festival as you got away from the stages into the camping areas you could just hear the bass booming away, and again where I work overlooking Hyde Park (Chilis playing there this week - I'm going hopefully, and should see them soundcheck from on high! :-)) watching Shania Twain's band soundcheck last hear and just hearing constant four on the floor kick and nothing else!

Okay, and I'll augment your point - when I lived next to a high school, the only thing you'd hear from the marching band practice was the thud of the bass drum. So maybe I'm wrong ...

 

Then again, as Jimbroni said, perhaps it's a matter of energy and efficiency. Obviously lower frequencies require more power - [insert discussion of why we have bigger amps than guitar players]. But I'm thinking we can beat the big-amp big-box thing by using more, smaller boxes, with lower-power amps. [Of course, with newer Class C/D amps, and louder/tighter little cabs, perhaps showing up at a gig with two 1x10s + 200W amp and a lot of cordage is no less effort than walking in with an iamp800 and an Acme B2].

 

Anyway, if you can tolerate another example by analogy ... The Hollywood Bowl (I think it's the Bowl, but I may be remembering a concert in Central Park) has small speakers at low volumes situated throughout the crowd, to reinforce the stage sound. Now - having been to (and played in) orchestras outdoors, what you normally miss as you move away from the stage is the warmth of the sound - the bottom end of the strings, etc. The sound reinforcement at the Bowl is interesting, because it's (usually) not so loud as to be the "primary" sound that you hear... but the reinforcement speakers restore the depth and warmth of the sound, without a whole lot of wattage.

 

Thanks for the thoughts, all ...

[Steve Lawson]

Although Steve may eventually say something himself, are you able to verify that he uses a couple of AccuG Tri-110s for his solo gigs that are spaced apart?

Howdy

 

I do indeed use two Tri-110s on stage, and so far haven't needed to go through a PA at all on any of my gigs with them. I've also not had any trouble with loss of bottom end... I tend to place the different loops in different places in the stereo field, and use a lot of stereo delay and chorusing, but my melody sounds and basslines are often running straight down the middle, so benefit from having full power on both speakers.

 

This is truly the fullest sounding rig I've ever used - these cabs sound incredible, and the response from audiences suggests that it's not just me who's noticing...

 

Steve

www.stevelawson.net

[alexclaber]

And here is THAT sound system, courtesy of Dave Funk (who makes rather nice amps btw).

 

The Grateful Dead\'s WALL OF SOUND!!!

 

The multiple point source concept makes sense but only if you've got lots of point sources evenly distributed around the audience. If you haven't then some audience members will end up hearing a mix of different sources which will confuse the spatial position of the instrument and a multitude of phase issues. And even if you have, I still think you'll get better sound from stacking the cabs vertically to create an acoustically coupled line source.

 

Alex

[music-man]

Originally posted by C.Alexander Claber:

And here is THAT sound system, courtesy of Dave Funk (who makes rather nice amps btw).

 

The Grateful Dead\'s WALL OF SOUND!!!

Whoa - that's a lotsa kaboom.

 

Originally posted by C.Alexander Claber:

If you haven't then some audience members will end up hearing a mix of different sources which will confuse the spatial position of the instrument and a multitude of phase issues.

Alex - I let this slide before, but since it came up again ... I'm not sure I buy that the "spatial position" problem would be that big a deal. Again, thinking in real-life terms, on stage, even though you're moving around, the amp stays put. And the amp is often not directly behind you, particularly in smaller clubs, where the backline is squeezed in wherever they can put it. People figure it out ... Also, I'd think for bass in particular the exact placement of the instrument wouldn't be a big deal, since it's tougher to ID the source of LF anyway.

 

I'm thinking I need to actually test this idea out, and report back. Which means I'll need another little cabinet.

 

Hmmm. What to buy ...