lessons......are they worth it

[fivestringedsucka]

i don't know if i'm the only one that this happens to, and i hope i'm not, but i feel like i've hit some sort of plateau. everything i write seems to sound the same lately, and i don't feel like i'm getting better. i've hit these plateaus before, and gotten through them, but i hate feeling so limited.

has anyone taken lessons? are they really worth it? i want to learn exercises to increase mobility in my hands, and i want to learn scales, etc. but is this all stuff i can do on my own, or are lessons something i can really benefit from? just curious to hear other people's experiences with them.

 

thanks

fivestringedsucka

[the.circular.motion.rub.it]

tho im not taking them anymore, i credit lessons with alot of my improvement in bass playing.

 

of course you can still learn alot by yourself, but i think finding a good teacher that you can develop a good relatoinship with is invaluable.

 

it seems like you want to learn alot of the 'technical' stuff, (i.e., scales), and yes, you can learn these on your own, but you will probably get a better perspective of theory if you learn it from a teacher.

 

whatever you decide to do, good luck!

 

PS yea those plateaus suck

[getz out]

Go to lessons.

 

You can fix the brakes on your car yourself, even if you're not an expert. It's not that hard. But why not trust a professional?

 

If you've never taken lessons, I'm sure there are some things that a good teacher can "fix" about your approach to the instrument. This is part of the reason I might return to lessons.

 

Additionally, you will get some input from someone who has a different musical background than you.

 

There are too many things to discuss here; trust me, lessons are probably the best value in the music world. Teachers are often overqualified and underpaid.

[fivestringedsucka]

i took lessons for a little while, but my teacher didn't know what the hell he was doing. i was learning to tap during like my 4th lesson.

 

i'm really just against learning to read music at this point. maybe someday, but i'm so much more interested in getting better all around.

[BenLoy]

i took lessons for a little while, but my teacher didn't know what the hell he was doing. i was learning to tap during like my 4th lesson.

 

i'm really just against learning to read music at this point. maybe someday, but i'm so much more interested in getting better all around.

Why are you against learning to read music? If you say it'll "hamper your creativity" you'll get absolutely no sympathy from me. That's a load of bunk.

 

Your teacher shouldn't have been teaching you to tap in your fourth lesson. He should've started at the beginning, making sure you knew your two-octave scales in all twelve keys, your arpeggios, ear training, playing with your wrists straight, LEARNING TO READ MUSIC, etc.

 

The above ways are the best ways to get better all around. There are no shortcuts. I never had a single lesson on how to slap or tap, and any teacher who starts out with stuff like that is not doing their students a favor.

 

There are plenty of players in MA...I'm sure you'll be able to find one who's a good teacher.

[mound]

i'm really just against learning to read music at this point. maybe someday, but i'm so much more interested in getting better all around.

I had to stop myself from laughing outloud when I read that. No offense man, but if you stop and re-read that, hopefully you'll see the lunacy of that statement. Imagine if your doctor said "I'm really against learning anatomy at this point. maybe someday, but i'm so much more interested in digging in and cutting so I can become a better surgeon"..

 

I know I know, extreme analogy but it only serves to illustrate the point..

 

Good luck to you whatever you do, to your question, absolutely, without question, a good teacher is a more worthwhile investment than any piece of gear you could ever buy. Note I said "good" teacher - there are a lot of hacks out there, teaching a beginner to tap on their fourth lesson just shows a very limited vision on the part of the teacher as far as I'm concerned.

 

-Paul

[jeremy c]

Let me know when you find someone who says,

"I'm really sorry I took lessons. I'm really sorry I studied and learned from the past."

[wraub]

Topic: lessons......are they worth it

 

Yes.

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[...]

Originally posted by BenLoy:

Why are you against learning to read music? If you say it'll "hamper your creativity" you'll get absolutely no sympathy from me. That's a load of bunk.

 

Your teacher shouldn't have been teaching you to tap in your fourth lesson. He should've started at the beginning, making sure you knew your two-octave scales in all twelve keys, your arpeggios, ear training, playing with your wrists straight, LEARNING TO READ MUSIC, etc.

 

The above ways are the best ways to get better all around. There are no shortcuts. I never had a single lesson on how to slap or tap, and any teacher who starts out with stuff like that is not doing their students a favor.

 

There are plenty of players in MA...I'm sure you'll be able to find one who's a good teacher.

Word.

[Mike Bear]

Slightly bias cause I teach but, I'll spend a moment writing about who should take lessons. I'd say a percentage of students I get, I don't even know why they are there. If you do take lessons, be prepared to learn and try, and practice new things that may not shed any significance to you from time to time.

 

If you are experienced, be prepared for your physical technique to be re-examined. Now I've had some really advanced teachers myself getting me to change up my technique. After a point, some is preference. Obviously most of us do what we think is best already. Don't knock any of it though. Most important be prepared to take a few steps back in your current progress if you are going to actually apply your new found knowledge to what you do for your art.

 

In a nut shell, be humble, and give it an honest chance.

 

As for reading, I don't force my students to read any more. I used to. Reading takes a good portion of the lessons for the first bulk of lessons. It's a huge turn off to people who don't care. It's at peoples disadvantage to not learn to read. Reading is not a talent. You do have to use it or lose it. So if someone is not going to keep it up beyond lessons, then there's no use in bothering. I still have to frequently sharpen my reading. I remember Gary Willis saying he wasn't as good a reader as he used to be. I do constantly experiment with different ways and times to introduce reading. I would like to get a larger percentage if possible. If my students don't learn reading, they still learn theory through tab, and diagrams.

[fivestringedsucka]

i appreciate the responses. some more than others. i understand that i asked a question that certainly would generate some biased answers, but i don't think my question is so black and white that it deserves blatantly sarcastic answers.

 

i know plenty of bass players that are phenomenal, and can't read music. and i certainly know it isn't required to become a good bass player.

 

so my next question is, why does everyone feel like it's so important? other than making it a whole lot easier to learn theory, how am i going to benefit, and when am i going to use it after the lessons are over, if i'm not interested in playing other people's music?

right now, i just play the damn bass. i have yet to be educated.

[FunkySmurf]

Lessons always helped me for several reasons:

 

- learn what your doing wrong and what you should learn in what order

- learn new approaches to things you thought you knew

- get an honest opinion "two heads are better than one"

- destroys procrastination (there is nothing worse than being unprepared for a lesson)

- keeps you up on thinking musically

- Helps you learn what you want out of your playing

- exposes you to new music

- keeps you from starting bad habits

 

I can go on forever, but you get the point. I have self taught as well and the advantage to that is that it is less pressured and you can figure stuff out the way it is easiest for you. but a good teacher should make you feel that way anyway...

[getz out]

Originally posted by fivestringedsucka:

i know plenty of bass players that are phenomenal, and can't read music. and i certainly know it isn't required to become a good bass player.

Warning; you might not appreciate this answer as it will be blatantly sarcastic.

 

I also know plenty of folks that do very well in life that have never finished high school or college. Some have actually gone on to become millionaires (I have a client that never finished the 8th grade and he's actually worth 8-figures).

 

So yes, it is possible. However, in general, the majority of the "phenomenal" players took on some sort of training.

 

If you think that lessons are just to learn theory and learn songs (in my opinion, your teacher should not be showing you songs, he should be assigning you homework to learn songs; by EAR), you're mistaken. There is a craft to handling instruments.

 

Take a look at your left hand while you're playing. If you've never taken a single lessons, I bet I'd be in the money to venture that your technique could use improvement. Maybe you're spot on, or maybe you "get by," but I'd bet you could do better. Hell, I spent plenty of time with lessons and my technique is still garbage compared to what it could be. I can't imagine playing as consistently as I do without having the experience of proper lessons.

 

The whole point is, a good teacher will prepare you with the tools to be able to learn for yourself by applying proper technique and approaching music is a structured way.

 

If you think that's a bad thing, you might as well drop out of school as well if you're still attending.

[Steve Lawson]

I'm a teacher too. And I'll go out on a limb and say you don't need to learn how to read. A lot depends on what you're trying to do. I will say that reading as a skill will only be a positive influence on your playing - there are no downsides at all to learning how to read. but you don't have to learn how to read. Learning how to read however, does make it a heck of a lot easier for your teacher to pass on musical information to you. And it's not hard. Not at all. So just do it.

 

You also don't have to learn two octave scales in all 12 keys. I'm sure it's handy to be able to do them, and I know I could, but I've never 'learnt' them. Never done that as an exercise. Always seemed to me like there are other ways of developing the same skills whilst playing actual music. Multi-tasking. Contextualise everything.

 

What will you learn from lessons? correct technique, ways of thinking about music, material to help you focus on the things that you're struggling with, an experienced pair of ears to pinpoint the areas of your playing where you don't even recognise there may be problems, an introduction to ideas, concepts, approaches, techniques, bassists, artists and music that you would otherwise perhaps never discover, or at least take freakin' ages to ever find out a thing about.

 

There is no faster, more efficient, more time and cost effective way of learning than taking one on one lessons. If you can afford it, do it. but please make sure you find the right teacher. Ask around, ask in shops, ask players, find out who the people are who are offering quality information, not just the dude that will give you lessons for $10 a hour. $10 an hour with a dufus is a complete waste of money. $100 an hour with an amazing communicator of musical information would be money well spent.

 

cheers

 

Steve

www.stevelawson.net

[mound]

how am i going to benefit, and when am i going to use it after the lessons are over, if i'm not interested in playing other people's music?

Perhaps you just answered your own question. I'd argue that if you WERE ONLY interested in playing other people's music than you could possibly get by with tabs and your ears (depending on the complexity of the music). However, you're NOT interested in playing other people's music, which means you intend to write your own music? If you can read, you can write, and if you can write, you can effectively communicate with others.. It's a tool man, as has been said, it cannot hurt..

 

But even aside from that, back to the topic of lessons, even lessons that don't teach reading, an experienced mentor who understands how to communicate with you and help you reach your goals is a great investment.

-Paul

[jeremy c]

You just want to play the bass and you don't want to play anyone else's music.

 

Unless you write the songs, as a bass player you are always playing someone else's music.

 

But you don't have to take lessons and you don't need to ask us about it.

[...]

Originally posted by fivestringedsucka:

but i don't think my question is so black and white that it deserves blatantly sarcastic answers.

Yes, it was actually.

 

Originally posted by fivestringedsucka:

i know plenty of bass players that are phenomenal, and can't read music. and i certainly know it isn't required to become a good bass player.

Start naming names and I'll let you know if they are really 'phenomenal' players or not.

 

Originally posted by fivestringedsucka:

i have yet to be educated.

This is very true.

 

Lessons are extremely beneficial if you are taking them from a good instructor. It is money well spent if, and god this is a big "if", you are willing to commit time to actually learning what your instructor gives you. I don't know why some people even bother with lessons. They show up, haven't worked on a damn thing that was assigned to them, and then wonder why they aren't getting any better. Amazing.

 

If you don't feel like you want to learn to read music, then perhaps lessons are not for you. Any good instructor is going to want you to learn to read music so they can communicate with you. It's rather difficult to write out how to play a warm-up exercise like this if you aren't writing it in standard notation:

 

http://www.briantimpe.com/images/LDL/warm.jpg

[Lugsailer]

Well, the general consensus here is that you need lessons. I'd like to add my 2 cents by saying that I've played for 33 years without 'em because I had one teacher for trombone I'll never forget. I transpose piano music up octaves if I have to, to play written parts. I did this the other day for Count Basie's Jive at Five. The piano bass part is sometimes a completely different animal and if you play these you'll learn every note on the neck. But don't let this be a detriment to taking lessons, I' just against taking them myself. And if I ever see that trombone teacher again, well lets leave that for another time....

[davebrownbass]

Originally posted by fivestringedsucka:

i appreciate the responses. some more than others. i understand that i asked a question that certainly would generate some biased answers, but i don't think my question is so black and white that it deserves blatantly sarcastic answers.

 

i know plenty of bass players that are phenomenal, and can't read music. and i certainly know it isn't required to become a good bass player.

 

so my next question is, why does everyone feel like it's so important? other than making it a whole lot easier to learn theory, how am i going to benefit, and when am i going to use it after the lessons are over, ?

right now, i just play the damn bass. i have yet to be educated.

I'd like to address a few issues:

 

i'm not interested in playing other people's music

Jeremy made the point that "unless you are a composer" you are always playing other people's music" I'd go a step farther...every note, riff, harmonic idea and approach you are playing came from somebody else. We are all derivative our influences. If you study a wider diversity of styles, you'll have a more complete vocabulary to draw from.

 

i know plenty of bass players that are phenomenal, and can't read music.

Yep...but, as was stated above, the written score helps you communicate. In addition, because I read music, I'm available to gig for a wide variety of settings. Now, that may be playing "other people's music" but I enjoy each experience for what it is, what it teaches me, and most importantly, who is in the audience that I'm able to move.

 

so my next question is, why does everyone feel like it's so important? other than making it a whole lot easier to learn theory, how am i going to benefit, and when am i going to use it after the lessons are over, ?

Lessons will serve to broaden you. I don't care if you are the most inventive bass phenom to walk the planet in 2004...you are in a rut. We all are. Lessons have a tendency to fracture rigid minds. After 2 college degrees in music and a dozen years of playing URB and electric, classical, jazz and rock, I studied 8 months with Chuck Rainey. I didn't learn a thing about technique or theory from him. But the interaction, advice, encouragement made these lessons one of the most valuable lessons in my life. And that would happen from other people as well...not just the great Chuck Rainey.

 

What's so bad about taking lessons to learn theory? Why re-invent the wheel? Take some lessons and learn theory in a structured way, especially as it applies to the bass.

 

You will use the lessons from an inspired teacher in unpredictable ways. You might even play better than your teacher...you might know more about bass than your teacher. But if the teacher is a good one, they'll be able to re-focus you. Chances are, they'll have an approach to something you've never thought of.

 

i just play the damn bass. i have yet to be educated

You complain of blatant sarcasm responses to your posts. To me, this statement is blatantly sarcastic.

 

Educated in what? Do you play Chicago? The Carpenters? James Taylor? Thelonius Monk? Parliment? The Who? Nirvana? Chili Peppers? Allison Krauss/Union Station? Miles Davis (BOTC)? Miles Davis (Modal)? Miles Davis (fusion)? Miles Davis (Funk)?

 

Face it...up to now, you've been educated in bass by seeking your own direction...listening to and absorbing your personal musical influences. By refusing education, you make the personal choice to exclude a vast amount of potential greatness from your being.

 

Not so unusual, really. I teach in a High School, and I see this attitude writ large among the vast populace.

 

But exposure to things outside my experience makes me better able to understand my own life.

[LizzyD]

Originally posted by fivestringedsucka:

i'm really just against learning to read music at this point. maybe someday, but i'm so much more interested in getting better all around.

Learn to read music. Then you will be well on your way to "getting better all around". Right now it may not figure into your musical plans, but who knows what kind of music you might want to be playing in 10 years, and what other musicians you may have the opportunity to work with in the future. Already having reading skills could be the thing that gets you a gig later.

 

Most of the gigs I've had over the years didn't require any reading, but it sure came in handy when somebody threw a chart in front of me and I already knew what to do and didn't have to ask them to show me or play it for me first. Put in the effort now, and you will not regret it, ever.

[Mystic Rhythms]

I can honestly say I'm doing great without any lessons. I picked up on alot of theory, how to read standard notation, learned upright with a bow, all by myself, and in 8 months. I think I am doing damned good, and I don't want to vain. One day I just literally went to a music store and rented a instrument and began without any training from anything before hand. Of course I was inspired to play and not just blindly picked it up.

 

So what can I say about lessons? I can honestly say that I am doing, and will continue to do fine by myself. I hate the Pleatu of course, but I can break it in a few days and improve through the experiences from it. I can say I'd like to take lessons to have my technique reviewed, and perhaps to learn more theory, because I want all the theory I can take and apply it to my work.

 

Maybe I'm just lucky to have this skill. I hope to play music for a career. Hell, I'm off to a good start, only 17 and I could get a scholarship from it.

[getz out]

Doing great, Mystic Rhythms? I don't doubt it.

 

However, do you think you might be doing even better if properly instructed?

 

Suit yourself, though; no one else will.

 

By the way, I personally am horrified by this entire thread. Very few things are absolute truths in this world. However, arguing that proper instruction on ANY process may not be helpful to development is potentially one of the most ignorantly derived opinions I have ever encountered. This opinion ranks up with folks who like to play excessively loud without hearing protection and folks who like to stick their naughty bits in blenders. But again, these are just my thoughts. I don't mind the uneducated roaming the scene; it keeps my gigs coming. ("C minor? Can you show me in tab?")

[davebrownbass]

Originally posted by Mystic Rhythms:

I can honestly say I'm doing great without any lessons. I picked up on alot of theory, how to read standard notation, learned upright with a bow, all by myself, and in 8 months. I think I am doing damned good, and I don't want to vain. One day I just literally went to a music store and rented a instrument and began without any training from anything before hand. Of course I was inspired to play and not just blindly picked it up.

 

So what can I say about lessons? I can honestly say that I am doing, and will continue to do fine by myself. I hate the Pleatu of course, but I can break it in a few days and improve through the experiences from it. I can say I'd like to take lessons to have my technique reviewed, and perhaps to learn more theory, because I want all the theory I can take and apply it to my work.

 

Maybe I'm just lucky to have this skill. I hope to play music for a career. Hell, I'm off to a good start, only 17 and I could get a scholarship from it.

Would you learn to parachute like that? I know, somebody, sometime had to be the first. He learned a lot...and it made it easier for the next several thousand attempters.

 

How do you know you are doing fine? Does your Mozart sound right? You might be setting yourself up for some permanent damage to your body and not know it.

 

I've taught URB for the past 20 years. I've had dozens of students gain scholarships...I've had over 30 students make the Texas All-State Orchestra. Every student who ever came to me (maybe 500 by now?) knew within a few lessons that they were way ahead of where they'd have been without me.

 

I'd say that I'm excited that you've undertaken this journey...and good luck to you. You might just take a lesson or two to let someone give you a little advice.

 

Good Luck!!!

[SteveC]

I have to agree with getz76 and davebrownbass.

 

I, too, am a teacher and orchestra instructor. I cringe every time someone says they can play upright bass - especially bowing - without instruction. You may be the exception, but I am willing to bet you are doing damage to your hand every time you play.

 

As for fivestringedsucka, it sounds like you have it all figured out and don't need our help. Maybe you need to move along.

 

Better yet, stay here, don't post for a while and just read. See how things go. You may find that we are a very knowledgeable and friendly bunch. This post, however, doesn't say much for you.

[Mystic Rhythms]

I suppose I lied alittle about the upright. My band teacher showed me the proper way to hold the bow and play. I agree with all of you though, I could use instruction just to get whatever i'm doing wrong out in the light so I can correct it. I've been thinking about it alot, just taking lessons on technique. Oh, about doing damage to my hand, how can I tell?

[way2fat]

If you are at all serious about learning to play bass, what possible reason could there be for not seeking instruction from someone who has already been where you are now? There are literally thousands of players around who could help you get through plateaus faster. When you hit the wall is when you should be looking for lessons. I'm not trying to be sarcastic (this time), but if you ain't getting together with other bassists you are missing out big time. There is an outstanding thread full of theory lessons for free right here, posted by someone who makes his living every day playing bass. Free. I guess you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. If you don't like what you're hearing here you may want to consider the guitar.

[jeremy c]

If you trying to get a scholarship to a music school, don't you think they will be able to tell that your technique is self-taught? That you have big holes in your theory knowledge? You may end up spending the first year in remedial classes.

[Radiohead]

Originally posted by fivestringedsucka:

i don't know if i'm the only one that this happens to, and i hope i'm not, but i feel like i've hit some sort of plateau. everything i write seems to sound the same lately, and i don't feel like i'm getting better. i've hit these plateaus before, and gotten through them, but i hate feeling so limited.

has anyone taken lessons? are they really worth it? i want to learn exercises to increase mobility in my hands, and i want to learn scales, etc. but is this all stuff i can do on my own, or are lessons something i can really benefit from? just curious to hear other people's experiences with them.

 

thanks

fivestringedsucka

stop being a little bitch and get lessons, no one wants to listen to you bitching about writers block, your not putting any effort into learning so theres no simple reply to sucking.

[davebassman]

My music teacher used to say:

 

"I'm not teaching you how to play bass, I'm teaching you how to be a musician".

 

I learnt to play and read at the same time.

 

Making statemnts about "only playing the damn bass" is what kept the "anyone can do that, it's only bass" kind of attitude alive.

 

Learn how to learn.

[squeennyzim]

I'll try not to be condescending or sarcastic in any way.

 

I picked up URB three months ago. I played around on it for a few weeks before my lessons started, but as soon as I started he could immediately start pointing out what was wrong with what I had been showing myself. That isn't to say that by reading books or watching videos I could have learned the same thing, but the lessons sped that along so much faster.

 

The most important thing that the lessons taught me though, was that a lot of things I thought I was doing right were subtly or grossly incorrect. The URB lessons have also greatly helped my electric bass playing.

 

One perfect example of how useful a) learning to read and b) taking lessons is happened today. My friends and I were playing some covers and I couldn't hear the bassline of the song because it was buried so far down in the mix. So I got the guitar chords, played the root notes and some arpeggios, and came up with something I was actually satisfied with. Sure, you may know the note names on the neck, but if you don't know chord theory, it's a lot harder to come up with your own basslines. You say you are writing your own stuff, but if you're performing with a band it will help a lot to understand how to relate your notes to those of the other musicians, and if you're writing your own stuff, it helps immensely in finding out what the right note is. Granted, if you have a good ear you may instinctively be able to find the next right note, but writing it down for others to perform is vital to making sure your music is accessible and will continue in the future.

 

I played electric for a year or so before I started taking lessons, and I've made more progress through the stuff I've learned on URB than I did during that whole year.

 

The only concern I have is that you don't seem to want to take lessons, so if you do you might not be learning as much as you could, having a built-in resistance to the idea. I highly recommend it simply because it's the best and fastest way to learn if you're willing. But if not, good luck and I hope your approach works for you.