lessons......are they worth it

[Steve Lawson]

coupla observations -

 

the people who claim to 'only play their own music' and who say 'I have no influences I just play my own thing' are, almost without fail, the ones who churn out the lamest most derivative load of monkeyturds I've ever had the misfortune to hear. Anyone who says that learning other people's music will damage your own is full of it. I'm influenced by everything I hear musically, and almost everything that goes on in my life outside of that. I'll listen to anything and absorb as much of it as I can. The more you know about music, the easier it is to break down what you're listening to into it's functional parts and to assimilate the concept into your own playing - is that lick you liked so much a cool little variation on a ii V with a dim sub on the V? Is that sabbath lick that you like so much using the fifth or the flat five? Learning music is not only about being able to do those things, it's about being able to recognise them when other people do them. learning the vernacular if you will.

 

observation #2 - only a lunatic would claim to be able to learn acoustic upright with no help. It's an extremely physical instrument, and one that can be seriously hazardous to your health if you get it wrong. Bowing is also a nightmare to try and do alone. Seriously, get some lessons, don't mess around. And while you're at it, take up yoga or alexander technique and make sure your back stays in good shape. You'll need it. I'm sure someone will post a reference to some genius upright player who taught themself, but the one offs only serve to prove the rule. They are one offs.

 

Like when people site Pino as a session player that doesn't read. If he was the only one who could read, then you'd have a point. What's more, the dude's got total recall. He can listen to a tune once and have it down. Unless you have that skill too, forget it.

 

Steve

www.stevelawson.net

[fivestringedsucka]

wow. with all the analogies, quotes, and witty remarks, i don't even know where to start. so i'm not going to.

 

just remember, we bass players got to stick together, haha

[way2fat]

If we weren't with you we'd just tell you what you want to hear. The bass is no place for half-stepping whiners. Get some lessons and join us on this journey.

[mound]

dude, fivestringedsucka, nobody here is out to get you, perhaps a bit of sarcasm here and there slips through sure, but really, folks here are friendly and not only willing, but EAGER to help anyone who asks.. You asked the question, the overwhelming concensus is clear, so just give it a try, ask around, find a good teacher, take some lessons.. if you still think it's worthless, walk away.. we're here to help you buddy!

-Paul

[getz out]

Originally posted by mound:

dude, fivestringedsucka, nobody here is out to get you

Mound,

 

No offense, but I AM out to get him. Seriously.

 

Fivestringedsucka; like I said before, do what you would like. If you're happy with what you're doing, rock on. If you want to learn the language and want to be able to play with others, maybe you should consider learning to communicate with other musicians. What the hell is so hard about this concept?

[Sylver]

Originally posted by fivestringedsucka:

i took lessons for a little while, but my teacher didn't know what the hell he was doing. i was learning to tap during like my 4th lesson.

 

i'm really just against learning to read music at this point. maybe someday, but i'm so much more interested in getting better all around.

It's fairly obvious that you know everything already, so I wouldn't bother taking lessons. Hell, you sound so talented and knowledgeable that you that you shouldn't even need to practice.

 

Tapping on the fourth lesson? My, that is impressive. Such a valuable technique too. If I could do it, I would use it in every song just like James Jamerson and Jaco and Geddy. They used it all the time. As a matter of fact, have you considered giving lessons yourself?

 

In fact, I think I found my new instructor! I bet there are so many things that you could teach an old fart who's only been playing 20+ years. Oooo, could you teach me how to tap? Do you usually do it on the big fat string or on the little skinny string?

 

Yep, the music world is LUCKY to have people with your talent and attitude. I bet you will turn the world of music on it's ear.

 

You go boy.

 

You will see your name in lights.

 

You are da bomb!

 

Now that is sarcasm.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Steve Lawson:

the people... ...who say 'I have no influences I just play my own thing' are, almost without fail, the ones who churn out the lamest most derivative load of monkeyturds I've ever had the misfortune to hear.

That is so painfully true, I run a mile when someone says that to me.

 

I've never had a teacher per se, but through listening to loads of different music and players, reading and researching through books, magazines and the net, and hearing, seeing and meeting other players in person, I feel I've had hundreds of teachers.

 

I don't read music at all well (it's the pitches not the rhythms that I struggle with) due to too often using every other method of notation (though I've recently banned myself from tabbing anything out) but I've taught myself theory, learnt how to play most styles, developed a strong groove, and learnt how to write and arrange songs. I will get the hang of reading soon so I can write out and read lines when co-writing/arranging (and having a world of educational material opened up will be a nice side effect).

 

That's not saying one-on-one lessons wouldn't help me, I'm sure they would, they're just not something that I've either got round to organising or reconciled my miserly tendencies with. At the moment I'm putting more energy into improving my compositional and arranging skills than bass playing so I guess that's what I'd want lessons in.

 

But if you need to ask, then they probably are!

 

Alex

[BenLoy]

Fivestringedsuka, let me explain my position,

 

Not so way back in my not-so-distant youth, I was a self-taught kid who knew nothing about theory, scales, or music outside of what I could hear. But I could play pretty well.

 

I switched my major to music, and once of the first things I had to take was a placement exam. My ears were great, but was totally lost with what was on the paper in front of me. I bombed so badly on the placement exam that I was sent to a remedial class for basic musicianship.

 

At first I was pretty sore about it, but I relized that I needed it, especially in my private lessons with my teacher. It was hard, it was kind of dull at first, and I didn't see the application of how I was going to use the stuff at the time.

 

I eventually did, of course...especially when I landed my first paying gig out of school and suddenly found myself playing with a jazz guitarist who never wanted to be bothered with telling me what tune he was about to start. If he was feeling nice he would tell me the key. Lemme tell ya, knowing about standard harmonic progressions and recognizing different chords came in handy then!

 

I still can't sight read very well, and it bugs me. I'm considering going back to school even part time just to get myself in situaitons where I'm forced to read. It's cut me out of a lot of work that I would otherwise have no problem doing.

 

The moral of the story? DON'T BE LIKE ME, start learning to read and taking bass lessons now! The pros far outway the cons.

[JulieCat]

Baffle them with bullshit, indeed.

 

These guys ARE sticking together. With you, even. Step outside your own ego for a minute and look at what they're really saying. If they didn't care, this thread would have dropped to the bottom of the page.

 

Instead of lessons, perhaps a thicker skin and a little humility? Sarcasm is a main course around here.

 

Pony up the mintage for one lesson and decide for yourself if they're worth it.

[fivestringedsucka]

i don't know how it came to me having an ego. i think i'm a pretty decent bass player for the amount of time i've been playing, and the lack of professional training. i never said i was too proud to get myself a teacher. i wouldn't have asked in the first place, if that was the case.

i play in a band with two guys who have been trained, and i don't have any trouble communicating with them, which is where my questioned stemmed from.

looking at the posts, a lot of people seemed to think it was a dumb question, and maybe it was, but there was more to the question than, "should i take lessons?"

either way, i have a pretty good idea on what to do

[getz out]

How do you communicate with these two fellows?

 

How were they "properly trained"?

 

Are you playing gigs?

 

What happens when this band breaks up and you find you can't communicate with the next group of fellows?

[way2fat]

Did being "properly trained" hurt the musicianship of your friends? Somewhere in their "proper training" they had to play "other peoples music". Have you noticed that their music suffers because of that? I'm not suggesting that you have an ego problem because you say you can play pretty well. I'm suggesting you have an ego problem because you're not sure that someone further along the music path could teach you anything.

[fivestringedsucka]

i communicate with them by means of having played with them 3 times a week for the past 4 years, and learning from them. i've learned some basic theory from them.

they were/are professionally trained at Berklee College of Music.

we are playing gigs.

and i don't think this band's going to break up anytime soon, but i'll cross that bridge when/if it comes.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by fivestringedsucka:

i communicate with them by means of having played with them 3 times a week for the past 4 years, and learning from them. i've learned some basic theory from them.

So you know where the notes are, what the intervals are, and how the basic chords are constructed?

 

Alex

[way2fat]

Do you think that your buddies wasted their time at Berklee? If not the answer to your original question is yes, if so then the answer is no.

[-Will-]

Topic: lessons......are they worth it

 

I can only add that they are worth it if you are open to what an instructor has to teach you. If you are not and think that you do not need lessons then I would say no, they are not worth it. Doesn't make since to set with someone for a half hour to an hour a week and not practice what they give you.

[fivestringedsucka]

no i don't think they've wasted their time at Berklee, but there's a difference between taking lessons and attending a music school.

[jeremy c]

Well then, if you do want a teacher, why not contact one of the bass instructors at Berklee and get private lessons from him?

 

Where is Northboro? Is that somewhere near Milford?

[fivestringedsucka]

yeah it's like 20 minutes away

[getz out]

Originally posted by fivestringedsucka:

there's a difference between taking lessons and attending a music school.

There should not be that much of a difference.

 

Originally posted by fivestringedsucka:

and i don't think this band's going to break up anytime soon, but i'll cross that bridge when/if it comes

All bands break up. It's the way things go. What happens when you try to find a new set of mates that don't speak your language? What are you going to do?

 

If you know the fretboard and you're comfortable playing root quarter-note in 4/4 time, then maybe you don't need lessons. Seriously, I'm not being condenscending here; there's nothing wrong with that. However, if you want to dive into other forms and styles, the most common communication is by calling out key, time signature, and chord changes. Do you know what to do when someone says, "In E-minor at 4/4. Verse is Am7, Bm7, and Em7 for two measures. Chorus is Cmaj and Gmaj with a time change to 7/4."

 

This is usually the way I communicate with every original band I've been in...

[fivestringedsucka]

yeah i understand that stuff. when it comes to time changes, i can play in the correct time once i get a feel for it, but i can't really count it.

but we don't even communicate like that. the situation i'm in is not one where the music is written, and i play it. we all contribute in the writing process. some songs are written off a bassline i come up with, some are more guitar based, and some come from jams.

and the whole reason i posted in the first place is that i want to learn other forms and styles, which is why i thought of taking lessons.

[davebrownbass]

Yep, and we split you open and filetted you like a bass.

 

Don't let anything we've said here hurt too much. We want you to continue your exploration and growth.

 

All of us are a wee bit sensitive because of the myth that "anybody can play bass." And the myth that "I didn't take lessons, and I'm okay."

 

And the fact that there are a lot of really sucky bassists out there...bassists who don't understand the groove.

 

But you seem willing to stretch out...take it to the next level. GO FOR IT!!!

 

And we'll be here to help you through the rough spots.

 

Welcome to the LowDown

[ClarkW]

You will get out of lessons exactly what you and your instructor put into them.

[mound]

and i don't think this band's going to break up anytime soon, but i'll cross that bridge when/if it comes.

dude! lets hear some MP3's!

[fivestringedsucka]

http://www.suckabrown.com/media.html

[mound]

yer not a bad player man.. I think you'll be amazed at the doors that magically open with a good teacher.

 

edit: all three mp3's up there - it sounds like you're pretty much playing the same thing on all the tracks.. perhaps some lessons will inject some variety into your grooves :-)

[BeatleBass]

not only will lessons teach you about technique, theory, and how to read music (which is CRUCIAL if you ever want the chance to play with some of the outstanding musicians out there), hopefully it would open you eyes to new types of music, and bass playing you've never heard before. You can use the opportunity to learn jazz, or funk, or motown and learn WHY famous players play what they do, and why what you play in your band sounds good.

 

About this crap about learning to play classical Double Bass without a teacher..... I started to play the bass the beginning of last year, going from playing no instrument to being in the orchestra. I'm progressing rapidly, and nine months after I started playing, I was in the Area All-State Orchestra, ranked fourth out of all applying bassists in the surrounding counties. I couldn't have progressed so rapidly without great teachers, and can't really see anyone without any sort of lessons going anywhere.

[abaguer]

so my next question is, why does everyone feel like it's so important? other than making it a whole lot easier to learn theory, how am i going to benefit, and when am i going to use it after the lessons are over, if i'm not interested in playing other people's music?

 

Now I know everyone is different but I have found that I am a visually oriented person. Since playing the right rhythm is as important as playing the right notes I have found it much easier to memorize a rhythmic figure once having looked at it on paper or having written it down myself. I can recall it much easier having SEEN it. This may not be the case for you but since you have no idea because you don't want to pursue reading then you will probably never figure out what some of the benefits could be. Reading has made it much easier for me to memorize many songs and remember them without the written page. I may not recall every single grace note or gliss but I can remember the meat and potatoes part of a song and that wouldn't be possible if I didn't know how to read. My point is there are advantages to reading that you probably don't realize now because you are not pursuing it. You may derive a benefit from it that is particular only to you. You'll never know unless you check it out.

 

Oh and one more reason to read. This just happened to me today. I was playing a low key gig for someone's anniversary and right before the hit we found out we would have to back up 7 different singers with arrangements and music we had never played before and there was no time for even a run through. There were 50 songs in their act and we had to sightread through 20 of them back to back all segued and VERY TIGHTLY arranged. If you didn't read you couldn't fake your way through it because there were a lot of starts and stops, walking, 2 beat, latin feels that changed within the song, ensemble hits etc. My sightreading is definitely not up to Broadway pit band levels, but I was able to catch 80-85% of everything and make the show run convincingly. Without being able to read I would be lost from the downbeat.

[mound]

Since playing the right rhythm is as important as playing the right notes

I dare say playing the right rhythm is more important than playing the right note.. An off note will likely fly over most the audience's head, but if you skrew up the rhythm, it's likely most everybody will notice..

 

-Paul