Trumpet v. Bass question

[Graham56]

I know this is somewhat off-topic, but its a question that is puzzling my theory-limited brain. And I know there are some brilliant music teachers here who can answer this.

 

My 11-year-old daughter is learning to playing trumpet, so the other night we tried to play together, using some simple piano/guitar chords charts from one of those 100 Best Pop Tunes books.

 

But what came as news to me was that she played the notes at a different pitch to the piano or my bass. If she played what was written, it came out a tone lower than the correct pitch. In the end the easiest solution was for me to play a tone low rather than have her transpose on the fly. But why is this?

 

Now, I know the trumpet is referred to as a Bb instrument, but I thought that just meant that it played a Bb as its natural open note sound. But it appears to be more complex than that. Even if the trumpeter is happier in Bb, why dont they play the same C as everyone else?

 

Does this mean that music written for the trumpet is written to a different clef? Or is the trumpet part transposed so that the trumpeter plays a D when everyone else plays a C?

 

And is there a similar issue with other wind instruments such as Saxophones?

 

And in a Jazz band, are the trumpets, saxophones and guitar/keyboard/bass all playing in different scales even if they are playing in unison?

 

Cheers

 

Graham

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Graham56:

Or is the trumpet part transposed so that the trumpeter plays a D when everyone else plays a C?

That's it! I've encountered this for the first time in practice at my jazz workshops and it's sooooo annoying. Here's a useful link with the transpositions listed:

 

http://www.musictheory.halifax.ns.ca/transposition.html

 

What's gets me is that it's all semantics - when the trumpeter plays what they call a D they're really playing a C, they just relabel all their notes a tone higher.

 

Bass (i.e. bass guitar and double bass) and guitar are both transposing instruments - fortunately, it's just by an octave, so you play the notes an octave lower than they're written.

 

Alex

[Mark Zeger]

Originally posted by Graham56:

But what came as news to me was that she played the notes at a different pitch to the piano or my bass. If she played what was written, it came out a tone lower than the "correct' pitch. In the end the easiest solution was for me to play a tone low rather than have her transpose on the fly. But why is this?

 

Now, I know the trumpet is referred to as a Bb instrument, but I thought that just meant that it played a Bb as it's "natural' open note sound. But it appears to be more complex than that. Even if the trumpeter is "happier' in Bb, why don't they play the same C as everyone else?

It has to do with range, timbre, and history. There are trumpets in many keys, Bb is simply the most common. The range and tone of a Bb trumpet makes it versatile for many genres of music.

 

C Trumpets are very common for classical music, especially symphonic work. These play the same concert pitch as your piano music. Trumpets are also made in D (usually comes with extra slides for changing to C), Eb/D, F, and G. F & G trumpets are used primarily for Baroque pieces. All these trumpets enable players to perform high parts more easily. Piccolo trumpets in Bb/A are a full octave higher than a standard Bb trumpet (these usually have 4 valves, it helps with intonation at high pitches). Bb bass trumpets and F contralto trumpets aren't very common and mostly used for marching bands.

 

Does this mean that music written for the trumpet is written to a different clef? Or is the trumpet part transposed so that the trumpeter plays a D when everyone else plays a C?

Trumpet is always written in treble clef. Yes, a Bb trumpet part is always written a whole tone higher than the same part for any concert pitch instrument.

 

And is there a similar issue with other wind instruments such as Saxophones?

Depends on what type of sax. Tenor and soprano are Bb, alto and baritone are Eb. Clarinet and bass clarinet are Bb. Flute is in C.

 

And in a Jazz band, are the trumpets, saxophones and guitar/keyboard/bass all playing in different scales even if they are playing in unison?

Let's say a typical jazz band wants to play a blues in Eb. Piano, bass, guitar are all playing Eb blues. Bb Trumpet, Bb tenor sax, Bb soprano sax, and Bb trombone* are playing F blues. Eb alto and Eb bari sax play C blues.

 

* Some trombones have optional tubing and a triggered rotary valve to change from Bb to F. Most French horns also have alternate tubing and a triggered rotary valve to change from F to Bb.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Mark Zeger:

Let's say a typical jazz band wants to play a blues in Eb. Piano, bass, guitar are all playing Eb blues. Bb Trumpet, Bb tenor sax, Bb soprano sax, and Bb trombone* are playing F blues. Eb alto and Eb bari sax play C blues.

You see - this is what confuses me at the jazz workshop! I'm getting used to it now, but it seems so bizarre that everyone claims they playing in different keys.

 

I guess this is analogous to detuning on the bass - if you tune down a tone then you'd be playing a Bb bass, or tune BEAD (i.e. down 2 1/2 tones) you'd be playing a G bass. Therefore if you were playing a blues in Eb, a normal bass would be playing in Eb, a tone-detuned bass would be playing in F, and a BEAD bass would be playing in Ab. Is that right?

 

Alex

[Tom Capasso]

Trumpet v. Bass - bass wins every time - the tubing on the trumpet cannot withstand the power of a slab of wood.

 

The problem is your perspective. You learned music on a "C" instrument. For those of us that learned on a non-C instrument (Eb alto sax for me), we're used to the idea. My son plays french horn - in the instrument's history the horn was created in many different keys. He has played "horn in F", or "horn in Bb". That means he has to transpose on the fly. I can't do that, but he can.

 

With your daughter, you might want to try doing the transposition so she doesn't have to work too hard. It's only a step, so it shouldn't be too hard, and it's good practice. I play in church with a keyboard player who always plays what's on the sheet music - but sometimes he dials his keyboard down a step (fortunately the indicator light says "-2" so I can tell what's going on).

 

Pity those alto sax guys in rock bands. A step and a half off, and everything is in E or A. Not easy....

 

Tom

[_Sweet Willie_]

Another idea is to sit down with your daughter and a musical score (from a classical piece, a big band arrangement, or even a musical) so she can see how the different parts were written for the different instruments. Looking at scores can be really enlightening in terms of what you can learn about arranging, transposition, and composition.

 

Peace.

[ClarkW]

It is wise, however, for any horn player worth their salt to be able to transpose on the fly. You can transpose now, but once your daughter becomes a little more proficient, you might want to try making her do the transposing.

[jeremy c]

Let's back up a little here and I'll try to explain transposing instruments.

 

Every wind instrument has a "home" key. (my terminology). This might be the note you get when you play with no keys depressed, such as on a trumpet or french horn. It might be the note you get with all your fingers down, like on a flute or sax or recorder. Then on sax or flute as you lift each finger,you get a scale.

 

This home scale is referred to as a C scale, no matter what it actually sounds like. Wind instruments come in many sizes. The size of the instrument determines what this scale actually sounds like....which is why we have Bb and Eb and A clarinets. A longer instrument gives a lower pitch, a shorter one gives a higher pitch.

 

If we didn't call the basic scale on each instrument a C scale, a player would have to learn a new set of fingerings to read music on each size instrument. Instead of that we transpose the music for them.

 

Flutes are in C, alto flutes are in F and piccolos are in Db, but a good flautist could play any of them and read the music.

 

Clarinets are in Bb, A and Eb.

 

Saxes are in Eb and Bb. There are some rare old saxes in C.

 

And so forth.

 

String instruments are called C instruments...they do not have to transpose to read. But guitar music and bass music is written an octave higher than it sounds, so in some way they could be considered transposing instruments.

 

If you retune your bass to BEAD, I assume you know what notes you are playing. It doesn't mean that anything is transposed. If you retune your bass Eb Ab Db Gb to play with detuned guitars and call the chords by the names that respond to the frets you are on rather than by what the actual note names are, you are playing a transposing instrument. Good luck reading with your bass tuned this way.

 

A professional jazz wind instrument player is expected to be able to look at music written for C instruments and transpose it on the spot.

 

My friend, Norbert Stachel, has brought flutes and piccolos in 3 keys and saxes and clarinets in 2 keys to gigs. All our music is in C and in 15 years I've never heard him play a wrong note.

 

I am often asked to read chord charts and transpose them into another key on the spot. Occasionally I have to transpose notes as well.

 

When I taught jazz band classes, I spent a lot of time writing out the transpositions for the trumpets in Bb and the saxes in Bb and Eb.

 

Transposing is one of those basic musicianship skills that you should learn, along with being able to read in various clefs.

[orphan wells]

Welcome to the wonderful world of concert keys. I'm learning about this in theory right now. It's all sad but true theory.

[Graham56]

And Graham's musical theory knowledge takes another leap forward...

 

Thanks for the info guys, It's cleared up quite a few things that have been puzzling me.

 

So just to recap - the standard 'concert' pitch C is the 440Hz it says on my little tuner thingy. As is the middle C on the piano keyboard.

 

But for many instruments 'C' is something different, yes?

 

Just for interest, why did the 'home' scale become identified as letter C? Why not D? (It's in the middle after all!)

 

And yes, if my daughter is serious she will have to learn to transpose (she can do it now, just not in 'real time'). But she has an excellent teacher and is learning within a structured band environment so I guess he'll get her to work on that when he thinks she's ready. All I'm doing is supporting and encouraging her.

 

And as Tom said:

 

"The problem is your perspective".

 

Emm.... Tom, have you been talking to my wife?

 

Cheers

 

Graham

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Graham56:

So just to recap - the standard 'concert' pitch C is the 440Hz it says on my little tuner thingy. As is the middle C on the piano keyboard.

No, that 440Hz is an A. It is however in the same register as middle C, not sure if it's the A above or below though...

 

Aha! Done some investigating. Middle C (C4) is 261.626 Hz, so 440Hz is A5. It's in the middle of the piano keyboard and is represented by the ledger line below the treble staff, and the ledger line above the bass staff, which is also the ledger line in the middle of the grand staff. (Do correct me if I'm wrong, when it comes to music I'm self-taught so I may be barking in the wrong forest).

 

Here's useful link about notes and their frequencies:

 

http://www.pianoworld.com/pitch.htm

 

Alex

[jeremy c]

I'm still wondering why the scale starts with the letter C and the alphabet starts with the letter A. I've never seen an explanation for this.

 

But there are a lot of other things I don't understand. I got a D in Calculus. Maybe that's why I majored in Music.

 

Why do you park your car on the driveway and drive your car on the parkway?

 

Why when a baseball player swings and misses it is called a strike? Doesn't the word strike mean hit? Why when the pitcher misses the plate it's called a ball? Isn't it always a ball wherever he pitches it?

 

Why does i before e except after c have so many exceptions?

 

When God created the Heaven and Earth he saw it and thought it was good. How did he do that? It was the day before he created light.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by jeremyc:

I'm still wondering why the scale starts with the letter C and the alphabet starts with the letter A. I've never seen an explanation for this.

 

When I played in Italy, my Italian musician buddies did not use letters to identify pitches, they used do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-ti-do. "Mi maggiore" would be "E major." Although it took me a moment to get used to, it makes good sense.

[Mark Zeger]

Originally posted by Graham56:

All I'm doing is supporting and encouraging her.

Keep it going! It's a good idea to let your daughter play things like "100 Best Pop Tunes", regardless of the key and transposing. Just let her play the songs as written for now. Keep offering her material that sounds familiar to her. If she has an opportunity to play things she likes, in addition to her weekly lesson, she'll play more. That's always a good thing to encourage.

 

My daughter has been studying trumpet 2 years. I bought her a "music minus one" collection of popular Disney songs from "Little Mermaid", "Alladin", "Lion King", etc. The book has the trumpet lead parts with a CD of orchestral backing tracks. She LOVES playing these. Here's it is: http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_detail.html?sku=HL.8 41409&cart=32741615866297820&searchtitle=Sheet%20Music

[Tom Capasso]

Originally posted by Graham56:

And as Tom said:

 

"The problem is your perspective".

 

Emm.... Tom, have you been talking to my wife?

No but I talk to mine - so I know what you mean

 

Lots of good suggestions on this thread - I'm always impressed with the breadth of knowledge here.

 

Sometimes I'll hear someone ask "what note was that" and I'll answer "Q flat". It's my way of agreeing with Jeremy in wondering why we start at C, and why we don't use 12 letters instead of 8.

 

Tom

P.S. Graham - I was tempted to answer your question by saying "yes I was talking to your wife, and she's lovely" but almost thought the better of it....

[Dan South]

Originally posted by Graham56:

But what came as news to me was that she played the notes at a different pitch to the piano or my bass. If she played what was written, it came out a tone lower than the "correct' pitch. In the end the easiest solution was for me to play a tone low rather than have her transpose on the fly. But why is this?

As others have stated, it's the size of the trumpet, specifically the length of the tubing, that determines its "open" (the fundamental harmonic played with no valves) pitch. And as some have noted, there are other types of trumpets - C, D, Eb, Bb Piccolo - and each of these has it's own size and direction of transposition (key shift).

 

The question that has not been addressed yet is WHY was the Bb trumpet selected as the standard? The answer is tone. If you were to shorten the trumpet's tubing, you could convert it into a C instrument that plays the same pitches as a piano or a bass, but that would make the tone thinner and less warm. The Bb trumpet has the tone that most of us associate with a trumpet, so that's the model that's used for most applications even though it plays pitches a full step lower than written.

 

By convention, the lowest open note on a horn is called a C, even if it's really a Bb, an Eb, etc. That makes reading easier for multi-instrumentalists. C = an open note (no valves) even if it doesn't SOUND like a C.

 

Notice - your daughter can confirm this - that the open notes on a trumpet correspond to the harmonic series, with the exception of the fundamental, which is lower then the instrument's natural range.

 

Some of the upper harmonics will sound slightly out of tune because they're natural harmonics, i.e. they have not been adjusted for equal temperament. I'll note these with an asterisk(*). These notes are usually played with a fingered (valve pressed) alternative that's closer to the equal tempered pitch.

 

Fundamental: C (out of the instrument's range)

1st harmonic: C ("low C" on the trumpet)

2nd harmonic: G

3rd harmonic: C

4th harmonic: E

5th harmonic: G

6th harmonic: Bb(*)

7th harmonic: C ("high C" on the trumpet)

8th harmonic: D(*)

9th harmonic: E

10th harmonic: F#(*)

11th harmonic: G ("G above high C")

etc.

 

Does this mean that music written for the trumpet is written to a different clef? Or is the trumpet part transposed so that the trumpeter plays a D when everyone else plays a C?

No, and Yes.

 

And is there a similar issue with other wind instruments such as Saxophones?

The alto sax is an Eb instrument. Tenor and soprano saxes are typically in Bb, just like the trumpet. The clarinet is also in Bb. The standard trombone is a Bb instrument, as is the Baritone horn. The French horn is in F. That said, variations DO exists. There are Eb clarinets and trombones, for instance.

 

And in a Jazz band, are the trumpets, saxophones and guitar/keyboard/bass all playing in different scales even if they are playing in unison?

Well, for example, if the bassist and pianist are playing in G, the trumpet and tenor THINK that they are playing in A, and the alto THINKS that he is playing in E. But they're really all playing in G. They have to think in different keys to compensate for the differences in the designs of their instruments.

[...]

Originally posted by jeremyc:

Let's back up a little here and I'll try to explain transposing instruments.

 

Every wind instrument has a "home" key. (my terminology).

I like that term a lot. I fully plan on stealing this in the future.

 

Originally posted by jeremyc:

A professional jazz wind instrument player is expected to be able to look at music written for C instruments and transpose it on the spot.

I had to do this a lot in theory and composition classes at school. Thankfully, with trumpet it's only a step.

 

Originally posted by jeremyc:

My friend, Norbert Stachel, has brought flutes and piccolos in 3 keys and saxes and clarinets in 2 keys to gigs. All our music is in C and in 15 years I've never heard him play a wrong note.

Oh man, I'd almost forgotten that you're friends with Norbert. I totally dig his playing. He rules.

 

Originally posted by jeremyc:

Transposing is one of those basic musicianship skills that you should learn, along with being able to read in various clefs.

Indeed.

[groovyjazzyfunky]

Originally posted by Tom Capasso:

Pity those alto sax guys in rock bands. A step and a half off, and everything is in E or A. Not easy....

Awww, it's not that bad. I've gotten used to playing in C# or F# on alto, and now it doesn't seem any more difficult than playing in G or F (concert Bb and F -- standard jazz keys). And most saxophoning in rock employs mostly blues scales, which in C# and F# on alto are actually some of the easiest scales to finger. I've noticed that Sanborn plays in C# and F# a lot, even though he could obviously put his songs in whatever key he wants them.

 

Originally posted by jeremyc:

Saxes are in Eb and Bb. There are some rare old saxes in C.[QB]

I've got one of those. They're actually called "C Melody" saxes, and they're pretty well-known for not sounding very good. For some reason they're rather difficult to play in tune. They were made back in the early 1900's - 1930's and advertised in a "Now anyone can play the saxophone! Everyone gather 'round the ol' piano and read off the same sheet music!" type of way. Pretty gimicky. But fun to pull out every once in awhile.

 

Originally posted by jeremyc:

[QB]I'm still wondering why the scale starts with the letter C and the alphabet starts with the letter A. I've never seen an explanation for this.

I wonder, could it have something to do with the A *Minor* scale having all naturals (unless you're playing the melodic or harmonic minor scales) and being the relative minor to the C scale? Perhaps when notes were first named, minor was the more prominent mode of the time, so it only seemed natural to name the tones of the minor scale "A, B, C, D, E, F, G." And now that we think more in terms of major scales, it just seems odd that the all-naturals major scale starts with C. I mean, aren't most kids taught to play minor scales by "flatting the 3rd, 6th, and (sometimes) 7th"? I was. Maybe kids should be taught to play *major* scales by sharpening those scale tones.

 

I dunno... you're the teacher.

[Dan South]

Originally posted by jeremyc:

I'm still wondering why the scale starts with the letter C and the alphabet starts with the letter A. I've never seen an explanation for this.

 

But there are a lot of other things I don't understand. I got a D in Calculus. Maybe that's why I majored in Music.

 

Why do you park your car on the driveway and drive your car on the parkway?

 

Why when a baseball player swings and misses it is called a strike? Doesn't the word strike mean hit? Why when the pitcher misses the plate it's called a ball? Isn't it always a ball wherever he pitches it?

 

Why does i before e except after c have so many exceptions?

 

When God created the Heaven and Earth he saw it and thought it was good. How did he do that? It was the day before he created light.

Why is a driver who causes wrecks called reckless?

 

Oh, the C question! I don't have a clue, but here are my two theories.

 

Theory number 1: The 'C' stands for 'concert' pitch.

 

Theory number 2: 'C' is the key with no sharps or flats, so it's the easiest key to read and write on paper. If you were to choose arbitrariyl a default key to match your instrument's natural harmonic series, wouldn't it make sense to use the easiest key to read and write at the default?

 

Maybe the decisions that were made when equal temperament came into fashion contributed to this, also. If any of you guyz or galz are in music school, perhaps you can get a definitive answer from one of your stuffed-shirt profs.

[prophetgtree]

you know what sounds really weird is to hear an etire band (no strings, only winds) play their written notes on scales, and not on concert pitch. It sounds interesting to say the least!

[...]

Originally posted by Dan South:

Theory number 2: 'C' is the key with no sharps or flats

F lydian is the key with no sharps or flats... geeez... ya big dummy-head...

[Tom Capasso]

Originally posted by GrooveMouse:

Awww, it's not that bad.

You're a better mouse than I ever was. Sax was definitely cool for a while, but it doesn't move me the way bass does.

 

Tom

[Mr. Phil]

too much to explain, and im a lazy mofo.

 

beside everyone else already did

[Dan South]

Originally posted by Bumpcity:

Originally posted by Dan South:

Theory number 2: 'C' is the key with no sharps or flats

F lydian is the key with no sharps or flats... geeez... ya big dummy-head...

Darn, and here, all this time I thought that B Locrian had not sharps or flats. Or was that D Dorian? I'm so confused!