Theory Lessons.

[JonathanD]

Thanks again.

Question though. using my tiny brains' logic an 11th chord is the same as the 4th so why is a "4th" chord not used? The only thing i can come up with is that its suggesting that you use the octave (11th).

So is using the root octave frowned upon in any way? I can't imagine that it is, but you never know with musicians.

 

Thanks,

Jonathan

[jeremy c]

Hey Jonathan,

 

An 11th is the same note as the 4th. We don't call it a 4th chord because using the name 11th tells us that the 7th and 9th are present also. Theoretically an 11th chord has 1 3 5 b7 9 11. However, you should never play the 3rd when playing this chord.

 

If you want the 4th in the chord without the seventh, just write sus4. This gives you the notes 1 4 5.

 

An 11th chord can be thought of as another type of sus chord and many charts will write C9(sus4) or Gm7/C instead of writing C11. All three names will give you the same notes.

[Phil W]

bump

[jar546]

Why is a 4th and 4th considered perfect? I understand that the root and octave go together but why the 4th and 5th?

[farnorth]

bump

[jeremy c]

4ths, 5ths, unisons and octaves are perfect because there is not a major version and a minor version like 2nds, 3rds, 6ths, and 7ths.

[Phil W]

Tasty!

[Gismo Recording]

A perfect 5th is a slightly different pitch than a regular 5th. You get a perfect 5th when you chime on the 7th fret. A perfect fifth is exactly 1.5 times the frequency of the root. A regular 5th is ~1.4983 time the frequency of the root. A perfect 4th is exacly 1-1/3 times the root frequency while a regular 4th is ~1.33484 times the frequency.

[1111000]

A perfect 5th is a slightly different pitch than a regular 5th. You get a perfect 5th when you chime on the 7th fret. A perfect fifth is exactly 1.5 times the frequency of the root. A regular 5th is ~1.4983 time the frequency of the root. A perfect 4th is exacly 1-1/3 times the root frequency while a regular 4th is ~1.33484 times the frequency.

 

This is probably going to end up looking like a Pharisee criticizing Jesus to a lot of you but... can you back that up? I've never heard of that, and quite frankly it would make more sense to me if the tritone (b5 or raised 4) were 1.5 times the Hertz frequency of the root, because the octave is always twice as much and the tritone is smack in between them.

 

And by chime on the 7th fret... do you mean 7th fret harmonic? Relative to the string you're playing, that actually ought to be in unison, rather than the fifth.

 

That said I'm sure I missed something you said and am just being stubborn. Feel free to rebuke me.

[jeremy c]

A perfect 5th is a slightly different pitch than a regular 5th. You get a perfect 5th when you chime on the 7th fret. A perfect fifth is exactly 1.5 times the frequency of the root. A regular 5th is ~1.4983 time the frequency of the root. A perfect 4th is exacly 1-1/3 times the root frequency while a regular 4th is ~1.33484 times the frequency.

 

This post is alluding to the fact that the tempered scale to which pianos are tuned does not have perfect 5ths as defined by the 3/2 ratio. We use a tempered scale so that we can play in all keys without retuning the piano. Of course, singers, string players, wind instrument players will all tune their fifths perfectly when playing in a section.

 

However, the use of the term "perfect fifth" is an accepted term in music theory and can be used whether you are using equal-temperament, mean-tone, just intonation, Pythagorean, or any other tuning system.

[Gismo Recording]

cassius. If you hear a note than a note that is 1.5 times the Hertz you will hear a fifth. Long ago they used to tune pianos so that the G was exactly 1.5 times the frequency of C as it sounded perfect, but as jeremy points out, if you then played the same thing in C# it didn't sound so good so we changed to the tempered scale where fifths were slightly off from the 1.5 so that we could play in different keys without having to retune the piano. And by chime, I'm referring to the harmonic. The harmonic results from the string vibrating in three sections due to the seventh fret being almost exactly 1/3 the distance from the nut to the bridge so the frequency is 3 times the open string frequency or an octave above the fifth.

 

jeremy. You are correct, I looked it up and it seems that I was talking about something else. It looks like the term "perfect fifth" is synonymous with "fifth". Makes me wonder why they add the word "perfect" as it seems superfluous.

[Phil W]

4ths, 5ths, unisons and octaves are perfect because there is not a major version and a minor version like 2nds, 3rds, 6ths, and 7ths.

 

Gismo, Jeremy has answered that.

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

bump. I need more time to read some of this.

[1111000]

cassius. If you hear a note than a note that is 1.5 times the Hertz you will hear a fifth. Long ago they used to tune pianos so that the G was exactly 1.5 times the frequency of C as it sounded perfect, but as jeremy points out, if you then played the same thing in C# it didn't sound so good so we changed to the tempered scale where fifths were slightly off from the 1.5 so that we could play in different keys without having to retune the piano. And by chime, I'm referring to the harmonic. The harmonic results from the string vibrating in three sections due to the seventh fret being almost exactly 1/3 the distance from the nut to the bridge so the frequency is 3 times the open string frequency or an octave above the fifth.

 

I think I understand now. Thank you.

[TimR]

Jeremy's list of chords is excellent, but but where should you start. I have found that the main ones that would be of initial interest and definitely a good place to start are

 

Maj 1-3-5

m 1-b3-5

 

7 1-3-5-b7

Maj7 1-3-5-7

m7 1-b3-5-b7

 

Often you will not see the Maj written on a normal Major chord. In the case of CMaj you will just see C. This can make it easy to confuse C7 with CMaj7 when first starting out.

 

 

7 indicates major chord but include a flatted 7th (NOT the same as a minor!)

Maj 7 means mormal major chord and include the normal 7th.

m7 means normal minor chard and include the flatted 7th.

 

The chords are written this way because the 3rd and the 7th are what give the chord the defining sound.

 

Then look at Aug

Then look at sus

I would then move on to 9,11 and 13.

 

[Phil W]

It depends on the type of music, Tim.

Yes, I would start with major and minor triads and inversions and the seventh chords you mentioned.

I would look at 9, 11 and 13 as extensions of those but 6 and 6/9 are very popular too.

Then sus, maybe.

After that I would look at the two other main triads diminished 1 b3 b5 and augmented 1 3 #5 and build chords using those, extending them to common 7th chords.

Then, a long time later, you'd want to explore minor harmony and some of the funkier altered dominant chords but that's well down the road.

 

[TimR]

I just thought maybe, as the 5th is quite a common 'safe' note to go for, that it's fairly important to realise that its not the best note to play under an Aug or Dim chord. So worth looking at them fairly early on.

 

As Jeremy says, you should know them all eventually anyway. But most of the people I play with (including myself ) would have to think about the less common chords.

[Phil W]

I must namecheck my old teacher, Ed Lucie's chord lessons in BP.

Here's the first part:

http://www.bassplayer.com/article/forget-those-scales/jan-08/33237

Second part is in March BP.

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

I guess this is sort of a theory question. I'm in the process of transposing Thelonius Monk's "'Round Midnight" (Db) and have come across a couple of instances of a chord that I can't suss out. It is a C7 with a b5 and a #5. The b5 and the #5 are arringed one top the other like a fraction. There is also an instance of a Bb with a 6 and a 9 in the same arrangment. I have seen that before anda always assumed that meant "Bb6add9" until I saw the b5/#5 arrangement. "C7b5add#5"? C-E-Gb-G#-Bb? Ewww!

[jeremy c]

A C6add9 chord is usually written C 6/9.

 

I like the sound of a C7 b5/#5 chord and often play it on the piano. Maybe I'm just weird.

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

Y'know, before I posted I ran back to the "spare" bedroom and played it a couple of times and in a couple of inversions on the Casio, just to make sure. Didn't do much for me, but then again I'm not Thelonius.

 

Thanks Jeremy.

[Mr. Bizarro]

Thanks a lot, this is great information. I have a feeling I'm going to be coming back to look at this thread quite a lot.

[Phil W]

A C6add9 chord is usually written C 6/9.

 

I like the sound of a C7 b5/#5 chord and often play it on the piano. Maybe I'm just weird.

 

Nope, I love it too!

 

 

[Phil W]

Frank, a C7b5/#5 chord is based on the 7th mode of the Db melodic minor scale. Mostly you'll just see it written as C alt. They might have specified those intervals in that context as it might have been what Monk played!

You could add any of the following tones to the chord: C Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb C.

Chord symbols in jazz are generally just a rough guide for pianists who might play anything related rather than the exact notes dictated by the symbol.

 

 

- - - -

 

Or it also fits the C whole tone scale: C D E F# G# Bb C! In fact seeing #5/b5 I would more than likely think whole tone!

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

Thanks for the additional info, Phil. I was just wondering because of the 50 or so jazz pieces I've transposed/transcribed, this is the first time I've seen it.

 

On the piano as a chord, I'm not getting it. Playing the notes in a walking fashion on the bass, the actual progression of the notes makes more sense. Then again, my group isn't dealing with a "jazz" pianist anymore than my being a "jazz" bassist.

 

I still don't think my group can pull off Thelonius. Saw a special on him on one of the artsy-fartsy satillite channel. He was a different kinda cat when it came to jazz piano.

[jeremy c]

Try playing these three chords in order:

|Gm7b5|C7b5#5|Fm7|

 

Play them on the piano with the roots in your left hand.

 

With the right hand, play these four chord notes, listed from bottom to top:

 

|Bb Db F G|Bb E Gb G#|C Eb F Ab|

 

I know I didn't resolve the 7th of the C7 chord downwards, but the three chords sound good together to me.

 

You don't have to play Thelonious Monk tunes the way he did, and there aren't too many people who can. He wrote a lot of beautiful music.

[Phil W]

You may grow to like the chord, especially in context. If you don't just play it without either the #5 or the b5. It won't sound the same but it will work in the context.

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

Jeremy - you're right. We won't (can't) and Thelonius did.

 

Phil - I may. Seems that the "trio" is starting to branch into other areas of jazz - some modern stuff and some crossover pop. I imagine thess unusual chords will appear more often.

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

Y'know, this thread should be bumped on a regular basis. In an effort to allow my bretheren bassists the opportunity to see this thread often, I will ask yet another question that would have been easily answered if I took that damned theory course at the JC.

 

Say, for instance, that I have a piece of music written in Bb major. Say our vocals wants to sing this in D major. Say the hard-working, long-suffering and devilishly good-looking bassist transposes the music to D maj. This would be increasing the key three (3) semi-notes. Subsequently, all the notes and chordings would have to be raised three semi-notes.

 

Now all the G7 chords will have to be raised three semi-notes in a key that is identifed by two (2) sharps. My inclination would be to change all the G7 chords to A#7 (G7 -> G#7 -> A7 -> A#7). My keys wants to change all the A#7 to Bb7 because seeing and playing the A# isn't as natural as playing the Bb. Yes, I know they are the same note and chord. So does the keys.

 

Whatever is easiest for the keys is easiest for me - I can find the note no matter how it's written. My question is what is the technically correct way of writing the new chords? Sharps for sharp keys and flats for flat keys? Is it a function of the overall direction the chords are going? Flats for down scale and sharps for upscale?

 

I transcribe and transpose all of our music for C and Eb (in case we ever decide we may need a horn) as masters and I want the masters to be technically correct - the transposed music for gigs I'm not worrying so much about.

[Phil W]

Mr JC will give you a better answer. In the meantime.

 

D major is not 3 semitones higher than Bb major - it is 4 semitones.

 

The diatonic chords in D major would be D, Em, F#m, G, A7, B and C#m7b5. The names of the chords should reflect the key. Obviously you will meet a lot of B7 and E7 chords too.

 

For chromatic chords I don't know if there's a strict rule. For instance I might call D, D#dim, Em rather than D, Ebdim, Em - not sure why - amybe reflecting the sharp key sig.

 

If the chords are G7 in Bb major they will be B7 in D major.