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Theory Lessons.

jeremy c

By jeremy c
in Low Down Lowdown

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davio

davio

Posted
Posted
This is my first time reading through this thread. I've been one of the lucky ones in that I've had theory training almost since I started playing and it makes a HUGE differnece in my playing. I started by reading jeremy's initial few posts but what caught my attention was him saying that thinking of modes in relation to the major key doesn't help bass players much. I've had one theory professor that taught it from the other/your angle (altered pitches) but everyone else, both bass players and those not fortunate enough to be bass players :D , taught and emphasized relating modes to the major. I guess that if you're well versed enough in whatever school of thought you come from, you can use it to the same advantage.
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kad

kad

Posted
Posted
Originally posted by davio:

I guess that if you're well versed enough in whatever school of thought you come from, you can use it to the same advantage.

I think that is the key... For example, when playing over an altered dominant chord ("alt"), some players prefer to think of the "available notes" as forming a melodic minor scale beginning on the b9 of the given chord - i.e. the 7th mode of the melodic minor scale. Thinking just "melodic minor" has its advantages. Once you know all 12 MM scales very well, you can get a lot of mileage out of them, particularly in the jazz idiom. For instance, the first mode can be used for min/maj 7th chords, the third mode for lydian #5 chords, the forth mode for Dom7#11 chords, the sixth mode for half diminished (min7b5) chords and the seventh mode for the aforementioned alt dominant chords. That covers a good percentage of "typical" jazz structures with just one scale.

 

The downside, of course, is that by only thinking of the parent melodic minor scale, you are not thinking from the root of the actual chord you are working with. For this reason, a lot of players choose to think of the altered dominant scale (for example) as consisting of 1, b9, #9, 3, #11, b6, b7 - without giving much thought to the parent scale. In my opinion, using this latter approach, you will tend to become much more intimately aquainted with the 12 notes and their relationship to each and every root tone.

 

You can certainly make a strong case for either approach, and I find that players tend to be split fairly evenly between the two schools of thought.

 

In the end there's only one thing that matters: if whatever mental approach you choose allows you to find and execute the notes you hear in your mind, heart and soul, it's a good approach!! :)

 

Kirk

Reality is like the sun - you can block it out for a time but it ain't goin' away...
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Mighty Thumb

Mighty Thumb

Posted
Posted

Bump...

 

This was mentioned in another recent thread and is soooo awesome that I felt the need to bump. This has struck a particular chord ;) with me as I am trying to concentrate on theory more.

 

Threads like this are what is so great about this forum. My sincere thanks to all who have contributed to it.

Mighty Thumb
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Cthulhu Fhtagn

Cthulhu Fhtagn

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Change of pace ... This may be a more of a song writing questions, but anyway, I'm just not getting something. I've been hitting Ed Freidland's book "Building Walking Bass Lines" pretty hard lately. Trying to get out of a rock/metal rut an into a little smooth/improve jazz. He has a practice "F Blues" line which seems pretty prevelant in the book. Goes like this (measures separated by commas):

 

F7, Bb7, F7, F7

Bb7, Bb7, F7, F7

Gm7, C7, F7 D7, Gm7 C7

 

I'm not getting the progression. It's not diatonic. It seems based on fifths, but not a straight cycle. Blues Scale? It's not a II-V-I progression. What determines whether one uses a 7th, maj7th, m7 etc? Is it just personal preference, what appeals to one's ear, or is there some cryptic method to Ed's madness?

 

... Freshman at JeremyC Academy of Music Theory.

 

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

 

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Dave Brown

Dave Brown

Posted
Posted

Hmmmm.....

 

The blues progression is, perhaps, the most prevalant set of changes in all of music.

 

Blue Suede Shoes uses it.

 

In it's basic form:

 

I7 I7 I7 I7

IV7 IV 7 I7 I7

V7 V7 I7 I7

 

Two bars of root chord answered by two bars of root chord, then

 

Two bars of IV (4) chord answered by two bars of root chord, then

 

Two bars of V (5) chord answered by two bars of root chord.

 

See the logic?

 

The Dominant sevenths function to never really let the progression settle down to a tonic...there is constantly the suggestion of motion by a fourth.

 

In the example you mentioned, Bar 2 has a IV chord to lessen the monotony of the first 4 bars.

 

In bar 9, a ii chord sets up the V chord. Bar 11 and 12 is a classic "vi-ii-V" turnaround to send you back to the top.

 

In practice, the last chorus played eliminates the turnaround and uses just I chords.

Yep. I'm the other voice in the head of davebrownbass.
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Cthulhu Fhtagn

Cthulhu Fhtagn

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Dave, had most of that (means I'm starting to get it). It was the turnaround that had me baffled. The stuff I'm currently playing I use the I chord and make the turn with:

 

R 3 4 4# 5 5 5 5

 

And end with the I chord

 

R 3 4 4# 5 3 5 R

 

So I'm basically just running chormatic for the TA and arpaggiating (verb?) the ending. I was unaware that the "vi-ii-V" was a classic turnaround. What other "classics" am I missing and where can I find it? Banging on the 5th is fun and all, but I'm looking to expand a bit.

 

... 4# or 5b and why?

 

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

 

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Phil W

Phil W

Posted
Posted

. . .cut and pasted from Marino's post from somewhere deep in the Keyboard Corner . . . I don't have time to convert them to numerals right now, I should be packing, you can practise that SC. ;)

 

Turnarounds:

 

Two-bar turnarounds in C, from top of head:

 

 

C Am7 | Dm7 G7

 

C A7 | Dm7 G7

 

C A7 | D7 G7

 

C A7 | Ab7 G7

 

C Eb7 | D7 Db7

 

Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7

 

E7 A7 | D7 G7

 

Am7 D7 | Dm7 G7

 

Em7 Eb7 | Dm7 Db7

 

Em7 Eb dim. | Dm7 G7 (Duke)

 

Em7 Eb dim. | Dm7 Db dim.

 

Ebm7 Ab7 | Dm7 G7 (Parker, etc.)

 

Bb7 A7 | Ab7 G7

 

Bb7 A7 | D7 Db7

 

C Ebmaj7 | Abmaj7 Dbmaj7 (Lady Bird)

 

Bbmaj7 Ebmaj7 | Dmaj7 Dbmaj7

 

E7 Eb7 | Dm7b5 Db7

 

C Bb7 | Ab7 G7

 

C7 Eb7 | Ab7 Db7

 

C7 A7 | D7 Db dim.

 

C7 F7 | Dm7 G7

 

C7 Ab7 | G7sus G7b9

 

C7 Eb7 | F#7 A7 (Hancock)

 

C7 A7 | F#7 Eb7

 

Csus | Dbmaj7 b5 ("Temptation")

 

Abmaj7 B7 | Emaj7 G7 (Coltrane)

 

C A7 | Bb7 B7 (love this one - bluesy and modern)

 

etc. etc.

 

;)

http://philwbass.com
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Cthulhu Fhtagn

Cthulhu Fhtagn

Posted
Posted
Great stuff! I'll have to go over there and do a search to see if there is some more gold in that thread. Thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule, Phil. Certainly gave me a few more choices.

 

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

 

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Phil W

Phil W

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Glad to be of use. If I had time I'd post the theory behind the turnarounds - suffice to say that they're all interesting ways to get from I or similar sound/function to V or similar sound/function.

 

We have some people with great theory knowledge on this forum by remember that theory threads on the Keyboard Forum can be almost mind-blowing in the amount of theory on tap. Well worth a look around but beware if you're getting in too deep!

http://philwbass.com
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Cthulhu Fhtagn

Cthulhu Fhtagn

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'Nother quick questions. Was transcribing some lines from one of Friedland's books (his lessons has you do that sometimes). I've noticed a majority of the chord charts do not have key signature, although a lot of the chord charts are obviously not in the key of "C".

 

Is it common for chord charts to not have a key signature?

 

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

 

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Newf

Newf

Posted
Posted

Holy Guacamole! What a trove of great info. This needs a BUMP!

 

My sincere thanks to Jeremy and all of you for this. I need a serious theory boost. I'm getting really tired of not understanding music and relying on tab to get by. Tab is never going to help me create anything.

 

Cheers

Newf :D

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tnb

tnb

Posted
Posted
It's not diatonic, it's not based on the circle of fifths, it's a blues!

 

I guess it's time for a blues lesson.

 

A "blues lesson" would require you to leave the gig with the students girlfriend/wife and 2 weeks pay, while telling anyone who would listen what a no good so and so said student is. :grin:

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