Can a guitarist play good bass lines?

[michael saulnier]

OK, I know the knee jerk answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT!

 

But really... I've been playing guitar for over 20 years, and I have recently purchased my first Fender jazz bass to lay tracks in my small project studio.

 

I find that after a short warm up time, I can "hear" and play what seems to be some "interesting" bass lines, but when I listen back, I find that I kinda "overplay" a bit.

 

Have I learned to "swing the club the wrong way", and I'm never going to swing it the "right way"?

 

... aaarghh!

 

Are any of you former guitar players? Do you think you "hear" different lines than your guitarist friends do? Is there any hope for me?

 

guitplayer

[Chad Thorne]

Guitplayer, I still think of myself first and foremost as a guitar player who doubles on bass, something I only started 6 or 8 mos. ago.

 

I believe my bass playing has improved over time as I've listened to other bassists, to myself, and really thought about how to get the kind of bass line I hear. THE classic problem we guitarists have on bass is overplaying. Try playing 3 notes instead of 5; 1 instead of 3.

 

The other folks here who've played bass for years are really the experts, but I felt I could speak to switching over since I've done it so recently. Have fun! and remember,

 

"No pressure - all GROOVE."

 

- Chad

[michael saulnier]

Chad,

 

Thanks for your comments... It's good to see I'm not alone!

 

One thing I realized after thinking about my playing is that maybe I'm filling in too much because I'm putting my bass lines down with only a drum track... I'd probably do better if I tried recording after letting the guitar or keys say their piece. Probably keep me from playing the "melody" too much on the bass lines...

 

Any veteran thoughts about this?

 

guitplayer

[dansouth]

It all depends on the musician. A guitarist played all of the bass lines on the first Lynyrd Skynyrd album, and there's some awesome lines on that album. It's been suggested the Jimi may have played the bass on All Along The Watchtower.

 

The main difference between guitar and bass is the musical focus. On bass, time has to be more accurate, groove has to be spot on - great rhythm guitar players like Nile Rodgers have a great feel for groove - and overplaying has to be minimized. These concepts will be foreign to some guitarists, but not the truly musical ones.

[Ed Friedland]

Well, even if Jimi did play bass on "Watchtower", the guy he was replacing was also a guitarist...Noel Redding. His first gig as a bassist was with Hendrix. Keith Richards reportedly played bass on some of the early Stones stuff because Wyman wasn't at the session. Ron Wood's bass playing with Truth was unique and creative. Tom Petty played bass with the Willburys, the list goes on... In general, much of the innovation our instrument has experienced was at the hands of guitarists, so even though we'd like to think we evolved as a "pure strain", the electric bass gene pool has been spliced with guitar DNA from the beginning.

 

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www.edfriedland.com

[Chad Thorne]

I'm also discovering that playing bass is improving my guitar playing. Physically - when I go back to guitar after playing bass my fingers just FLY over the fingerboard.

 

Also, I feel like I'm more relaxed when playing guitar, thinking more musically and having more fun. And of course my time has improvesd, even though I think it was o.k. to begin with...and I'm experiencing this stuff as a 48 y.o. guy who has played guitar for many years...

 

BTW, if you've ever heard of Redd Volkaert - Redd is a PHENOMINAL Tele player who plays with Merle Haggard, and I recently heard on good authority that he has at least one bass gig in Nashville when he's not on the road!

[brianrost]

There a number of bassists who are well known as doublers on guitar.

 

Jerome Harris, who has worked with Sonny Rollins and Jack DeJohnette, is highly accomplished on both axes. Alan Gorrie and Hamish Stuart from the Average White Band switched off between lead guitar and bass both on record and live. Carol Kaye is known today as a bassist but she played guitar first and recorded with it quite a bit, including the first Mothers of Invention album http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

 

I happen to know our fearless moderator started out on the guitar, in fact I've heard him PLAY one! Now he has to kill me, I guess http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[KAP]

That's interesting, Chad - I had the opposite happen to me. After playing bass for 1 1/2 years, I recently strapped on my buddy's Les Paul, and couldn't even strum a G-chord the strings seemed so close together!

 

As a converted guitarist, I had to get used to the fact that in most songs my main job is to hit the root on the first beat of the measure. My second job became to hit a passing note a half- or whole step away from the root of the next chord. My third job was to find whether a two-feel or quarter notes or a short fill before the chorus are appropriate. Etc. Etc.

 

I think bass lines play multiple roles in a given song. It's different than rhythym and lead guitar playing. Time always moves forward, and the bass line moves the song in the desired direction. A slight change from two-feel to four can change the song from country to jazz in the same key and tempo (don't do this at home)!

[Chad Thorne]

You're so right about being able to change stuff up, KAP, and I've just been discovering how playing bass can scratch my control-freak itch! I play bass in my church's "worship band". A couple of weeks ago we were playing a contemporary Christian tune in the sort of folk-rock ballad vein (many CC tunes fall in this category). Well, I started screwing around, playing on some upbeats, trying to change it up a bit in an effort to keep myself awake. Paul, a much better drummer than I am a bassist, is always my willing accomplice in this. Long story short, folk-rock ballad becomes vaguely Caribbean/calypso-type number...

 

I know this kind of thing is old hat to all you real bassists, but I'm just discovering HOW powerful the bass pulse is and it's tickling me no end. Bass rules.

 

BTW. the nickname given to me by the worship band is "Sweet 'n Low"...

[lug]

There is only 1 possible way for you to play good bass lines. You MUST change your username to bassguitplayer! The guitar player cannot play good bass lines. But if, when he puts down his guitar and picks up the bass, he calls himself the BASSplayer, the clouds will part, golden rays of groove will shine down upon him, and he will be elevated to a higher plane of conscienceness, akin to being in a state of nirvana (or attaining Valhalla for our metel playing friends). He will then be tempted to burn his guitar and go through a 12 step progam to eliminate his former need for lead playing. This is not a good idea, only you can prevent guitar fires.

[Ben]

Lotta guitar players play too many notes when they try bass.

 

But then, lotta bass players play too many notes..

[Tom Capasso]

I agree that the cross pollenation has added to our art (no one mentioned McCartney). In fairness, too many guitarists who double just play root notes. Not always, but too often I can tell when the guitarist is covering the bass part.

 

Having been on the low end since early on, the bass part just comes to me. Although I play recorder (a certified lead instrument), I can always step back on to the low side. I do notice when a non-bass player is playing, and it's not that they play too many notes (which almost guarantees that I play too many). Somehow, they are soloing without covering the necessary spots. There are notes that I "hear" that belong, and they don't get it. My son is a great musician and soloist, but he hasn't learned to think like a bass player.

 

Tom

 

This message has been edited by Tom Capasso on 05-22-2001 at 03:28 PM

[Ed Friedland]

Brian,

You ratted me out! Well, I guess it's all in the open now. Yes...I too was once...sniff, cough...a GUITAR PLAYER! The proof is there for all to see at www.edfriedland.com/gallery.html look for the photo entitled "Blasphemy!"

 

But thanks to a few years at the Bernard Odum Center for Bass Re-Programming, I'm a productive member of society today!

 

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

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www.edfriedland.com

[Jason Poff]

The biggest difference between a guitar player playing bass and a bass player is attention to detail. Articulation. Tone. Feel. Time. It's not just about playing the right notes.

Jason

[zujo]

Can you ask a rainbow to come out at will?

 

Can you stop the ocean waves from crashing on the shores?

 

NO, really my suggestion is to listen to basslines of songs that fit the vibe of the song you are trying to lay down a grove on. By copying you will eventually emulate the instrument a lot better. I giess thinking in terms of under/overplaying won't realy help you "sound" like a bass player.

 

Thinking in terms of rhythm and note selection will.

 

Peace

[dansouth]

Ed,

 

Don't feel bad. Gary Willis started as a guitar player. You're in good company.

[ricknbokker]

I started playing guitar 27 years ago. 25 years ago I started playing bass.

I don't know what the hell to call myself except...musician!

 

Though primarily a bassist, I have always played guitar, and write most of my songs on guitar or keys. For all of my solo 'career', I have played all of the instuments myself, with the exception of drums.

 

Most of my songs have three guitar parts on them, and only one bass line. I suppose this keeps me balanced. Or imbalanced. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Seriously, I don't even know where the line between IS anymore...

Steve

[michael saulnier]

Hey thanks for all the great comments and advice. I guess I just need some "thinking" time before picking up the "big ax".

 

I have to admit that I REALLY LIKE playing the bass. When I'm doing it right, I can feel the groove and it's fun to know it's coming out of me!

 

BTW, I've been playing my MIM Fender Jazz w/ Duncan antiquities through my standard POD and have been getting some great sounds. I really like the Fender Deluxe model as well as the Matchless and Budda TwinMaster ones. I have a pair of JBL EON 15's as my PA speakers and this setup gives me some big sound.

 

Do all of you use a bass amp for playing or do you go direct, or both? Anyone using a guitar POD?

 

jus' lil' ol'

 

guitplayer

[Tedster]

Hey, a guitar is just a soprano bass, right? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

I'm a heretic (read: guitar guy)...but, I've come up with a couple songs that began as bass lines. So, I think the bass is a great writing tool in addition to being co-backbone (with the drums).

 

I think anything you can do to get a better feeling for the song as a whole is relevant.

[Ben]

I always use an amp, even when going direct.

 

IMHO, the instrument we play includes the amp. At a certain volume level, which isn't really all that loud, the bass and amp start to interact via physical feedback, just like an electric guitar does. This changes the tone and feel and attack and sustain.

[Michael Riehle]

Originally posted by guitplayer:

I find that after a short warm up time, I can "hear" and play what seems to be some "interesting" bass lines, but when I listen back, I find that I kinda "overplay" a bit.

 

Have I learned to "swing the club the wrong way", and I'm never going to swing it the "right way"?

 

IMO, the fact that you'd ask these questions proves your own ability to learn to play bass effectively. Whenever I've heard someone play bass and I could tell they were a guitar player it's because they had the "bass is just a guitar tuned down a bit and played by wannabe guitar players" attitude. They handicap themselves by believing they know all about the instrument because they know how to play guitar.

 

Funny, they never ask questions like the ones you did.

 

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Michael Riehle

Bass Player/Band Leader

fivespeed

CA Local Bay Area Music Webring

[clockwirk]

I think the most important thing is to train yourself to stop thinking like a guitar player and start listening and thinking like a bassist. Guitar players are so used to being spotlighted that they feel like they always need something to make them stand out. The best guitarist turned bass player is a good RHYTHM guitarist turned bassist. They both know they have a kind of unsung hero role of not always being noticed, but their jobs are probably more important then the guys who really get the attention.

[modulusman]

One thing that I have noticed in my years of playing bass is that as a bass player you have a very important job to do the almost unnoticable very well. I have seen many bass players do it 'wrong' and hear the reactions from other players. One guy in particular that plays at this blues jam I frequent has this abilty to somehow avoid the one at all costs (mostly everyone elses in the room). He plays a great harp though, go figure!

Another observation is that with one of my bands, the drummer and I have played together for over 10 years and everyone comments (usually to him) that the band is really tight. I have been thinking about this lately, since I believe that we aren't as tight as we could be, and I think that it has a lot to do with the placement of the beat. When I play with him we are right on top of the beat and we both approach it that way. With other drummers I may sit back a bit on the beat but this drummer can't do it! I have come to realize that after trying to change feels sometimes, I'll have to get my laid-back jones' out somewhere else because that's who he is and it sounds good. I believe that that is a major part of being a bass player; give it up and people will appreciate it, or fight it and everyone will know there's a problem (especially the drummer!)

[Ed Friedland]

"One thing that I have noticed in my years of playing bass is that as a bass player you have a very important job to do the almost unnoticable very well."

 

A truly astute observation!

 

I also liked the quote about attention to detail. Also very true. For a guitar player, the bass may seem "boring", you mostly play only one note at a time, and you play alot less. I always use the iceberg metaphor - the real story is the 90% that happens below the "waterline". Not everyone can get into that mindset, if they could, they'd ALL be bass players!

 

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www.edfriedland.com

[Chad Thorne]

What I'm discovering (I know, yawn, old news to you real bassists) is exactly how "apples & oranges" bass & guitar are. For myself, I love to shred on guitar; I suspect many (not all!) "minimalist" guitarists are really "can't play" guitarists.

 

Bass, though - I'm DIGGING the almost Zen-like nature of the instrument. I never matters how many notes you play, it's WHICH notes you play. An almost, well, MUSICAL quality....

 

Ah, grasshopper - it's a long road...

[clockwirk]

Originally posted by chad:

Bass, though - I'm DIGGING the almost Zen-like nature of the instrument. I never matters how many notes you play, it's WHICH notes you play. An almost, well, MUSICAL quality....

 

 

Ideally, this goes for guitar players as well. I was in a band with a "great" bass player who spent hours upon hours in his room a few years back learning all of victor wootens tricks. I myself used to practice guitar for speed, sweep picking, whatever. Anyway, we got in this band that was actually a imo-euro-pop thing where we both had to tune down our chops for the musical style. I became a minimalist guitar player for a little bit. He had some trouble though, and I had to play several of his bass parts on a recording we did because he played to many notes.

Both instruments need to have the musicality, both can have problems with overplaying.

[Fishkid]

Timely topic for me too; guitar player for nearly 35 years and just bought my first bass. A lovely new Ibanez BTB 400QM. Don't know if it's a great instrument or not but it's very versatile when it comes to tone.

Would like to hear any opinions on this instrument from real bassists.

 

In the few weeks I've been using it for playing and recording I definitely found myself overplaying, way too many notes. I'm also learning a lot about touch and generating a tone feeling with it. I didn't realize the bass has such a range of touch and tone. It seems like the bass strings have so much more mass and power that it's easy to ruin a good tone by playing the string too energetically, of course the type of music one plays is a big factor here. There's a lot to learn about playing with controlled power. I'm finding that equally as important as which notes you play is HOW you play them.

 

I think learning this instrument is going to do a lot for my composition as well. It helps pull a song's parts together much more quickly once the right rhythm and voice for the bass has been found. It just seems to simplfy the voicing for guitars and keyboards.

 

I'm also finding I have to re-learn fingering techniques just to reach notes and to play without so much finger and string noise. Is it common to have a fair amount of string/finger noise? Is it due to the larger windings, bad technique, or bad strings(I'm still using the stock strings that came on it, have no idea what they are)? Would love some tips on reducing the string/finger noise.

 

I have to agree with the other posters here, playing bass IS a gas and it definitely has a Zen quality to it: play something notable without being noticed.

 

----------

Fishkid

[Sylver]

Interesting thread, especially for me, since I went the opposite way. I've been a bass player for 19 years or so, even went to school for it. About five years ago when I my last band broke up, I started playing guitar, and found that it was a much better instrament when I was just playing with myself. (Ummmm, yeah) A lot guitarists that I know who are shredders (and you know who you are), you know the guys who play a billion miles an hour, tend to play the bass very mechanically. Not to say that there isn't cross-over, but I think that it's rare. Someone mentioned that bass players play more on the beat ... I disagree for the most part. The most interesting bass players that I know, tend to play behind the beat, just a hair. Jaco, Sting, Paul McCartny, Duck Dunn, Jerry Peek (He plays on Steve Morse's first solo album and is one of the best slap/thumb players I've ever heard, do yourselves a favor and check it out. Steve's great on that album too), Tony Levin, Bootsy, John Paul Jones, and Flea (Is it me or does he really want to be a guitarist? It seems his early stuff sounded like Bootsy Collins, and now he sounds more like Albert Collins) are all great examples of that kind of "lazy" bassplaying that seems to make a song groove. But there are others that I love that are "Virtuoso" players that really play lead bass. Jaco (He really fits into both groups, Geddy Lee, John Patatucci (sp?), Chris Squire, Les Claypool, Stanley Clark, Stu Hamm ... these guys all tend to play right on the beat, it's just that they choose to do it on bass, instead of the guitar. You know, the thing is ... all of these guys play what's in thier hearts, and it sounds great. Music is music, and not matter what you play it on, if you have it in your soul, people will know it. I'm not the most accomplished guitarist, but people seem to like my playing. Boy, that was sort of long winded, wasn't it?

 

I guess my point is that if you are a shredder, and try to play bass, and can't, then you may not be much of a musician, more of a technician. A good guitar player who has music in thier soul should be able to pick up a bass and make it sound pretty good, even if they are not playing like Jaco. Could Clapton pick up a bass and jam and make you move your feet? No doubt in my mind. Yyngvie (spelling again)? I think he'd sound like a train wreck. So, I think it's more of a question of musicianship vs. technician, not guitar vs. bass.

 

 

End of rant.

[Chad Thorne]

I've been discovering the truth of what you're saying, Sylver. When I started playing bass 6 mos. ago or so I was afraid that I'd play bass very mechanically and that I'd just, well, suck. But though I'm not going to tell you I'm the world's greatest bassist YET, I've found that what musicality has been given to me has guided my efforts and even I like what I play sometimes. The other acid test is the congregation at my church, many of whom have told me that they like what I play. I'm not bragging! but giving the glory to the One who made me a musician, and just saying how happy I am about the whole thing. Finally, my friend Dick, a bassist whom I call the Groove Of Death, paid me a high compliment - he told me, "You don't play like a guitarist, you play like a bassist"!

 

So, all that to say I agree with you! I hope I'm not being obnoxious here.

[dansouth]

Busy isn't necessarily bad, but there's an art to it. Taste takes a while to develop. I suspect that obnoxiously busy players are immature musicians who have not learned to listen to the rest of the band. My biggest breakthrough has come from writing and recording my own songs. The bass parts I imagine in advance usually sound busy and unfocused when I record them. Simplifying the parts usually helps.

 

On the other hand, busy bass lines can add a lot of energy to a song if they're done tastefully. John Entwhistle and James Jamerson are/were busy very players. For examples of busy yet tasteful bass lines, check out Joe Jackson's "Steppin' Out", Elvis Costello's "Veronica", or just about anything by Tower Of Power. The bass adds a lot to these cuts. The recent grunge movement has its very foundation in busy bass lines.

 

Busy is not bad, but it's difficult to pull off. Not just technically difficult, but tastefully difficult. It's not easy to play busily without getting in the way. Maybe that's part of the Zen koan approach to bass playing. Though you can often achieve more impact with fewer notes, you can sometimes increase the energy by playing MORE notes. They just have to be the RIGHT notes.