Music versus equipment

[Davo-London]

I know Phil will support this motion about gear, although we would hate to see it removed. And if you are an experienced player and you get a new bass, it's quite exciting and something that's quite nice to share.

 

I have spent far more in tuition than gear in the last 3 years so I'm feeling virtuous. The more I learn about drums the more I realise I don't know about playing drums, which is quite depressing. As Steve Lawson said mastery would take 2 lifetimes, there's no quick fix.

 

So sure, let's find the language to talk about it.

 

Davo

[1111000]

I wanna talk about my equipment. Me me me.

 

In all seriousness, I love theory talk, and yeah, equipment threads can get long-winded, but they really complement each other in a way. I mean, we love music, and I really do think it makes some sense to associate the instrument we play with the music. Even if, as Victor Wooten and numerous others have said, the instrument is useless by itself, it is still a beautiful tool that we can appreciate for its real value.

 

Every now and then it must be okay for us to discuss that sort of thing. If it weren't I think a lot of us would make poorer choices and probably lose money (I know I would). For instance: pedals. I don't know jack about pedals. It would be really easy for me to burn $500 on pedals before I knew what was good and what was bad, if there wasn't someone on this forum to advise me when the time came for me to buy one.

 

Now, all that said, I don't stay on these forums to just talk equipment. Like you all, what really gets my juices flowing is when somebody comes along and talks stacked triads or substitutions or what have you. I just had to play the Devil's Advocate.

[Chad Thorne]

I'm not really a gearhead (he said smugly). At this point what I'm trying to learn how to create bass lines that are irresistible and propel the song along; you know, what to play, what not to play, etc. One might call it, oh, "groove."

[yourlord]

Wow, rummaging around in the cellar to find this thread? 7 years old?

 

Anyway, it's quite correct that a bass is useless by itself. But, in that same vein, we are not musicians without our instruments. Take away the gear and all we have is a bunch of theory with no practical application of it.

 

Neither theory nor gear should be heralded as the holy grail of what we do/are. Spend too much time with one and not the other and you will never reach your full potential as a musician.

[DJR_Bos]

But, in that same vein, we are not musicians without our instruments.

 

Er, no. Not exactly. We may not be instrumentalists without them. But I'm pretty sure at least I'm still a musician.

 

Take away the gear and all we have is a bunch of theory with no practical application of it.

 

No, no, no. And no. You may want to fly this idea past some vocalists or composers or knowledgeable engineers and producers. Or perhaps some Bass players, keeping it topical, who are also any/all of the above.

 

[Phil W]

I had felt the balance shift recently, the balance does shift and it's all good. Frankly, gear does not interest me very much but it's perfectly relevant and insightful to discuss it. I make the effort and learn a lot from you guys. I even know the names of some basses. There are just so many facets/aspects to a bass forum. I'm glad it's here: when I needed a new bass rig I just gave Alex C my expectations/needs and he came up with the best options.

If I didn't have any gear, I would learn to sing or I'd arrange - I'd still be a musician without gear. I could play one handed piano or acoustic guitar or some beat-up old bass and I'd still be me, musically. Gear can help you express the ideas in your head or it can take over and replace the musical ideas inside your head. I played a cheap copy bass through a 10watt amp at a party recently and had a blast. I also played Davo's CB and jazz basses and was inspired by the instruments themselves.

Theory threads can be fun (TBH you'd learn more from one Keyboard Corner theory thread than anything here or on the Guitar Forum though). Sharing ideas and philosophy about music making; sharing gigging and recording experience; having a laugh; sharing music (whether our own or music we love . . . .the list goes on. The forum is a community - and so it's diverse.

I used to ignore the gear threads but I usually have a look. And it's usually worthwhile.

 

[Phil W]

Personally I've never developed my musicianship through gear at all. Apart from the basics of having a sound that works. If you played through a different bass with different strings and a different rig next week - how many audience members would notice?

 

But if you played a disco bassline in the metal tune they might!

[jeremy c]

Yes, I have a lot of gear and I like to talk about it.

 

I also have a four drawer file cabinet and an entire bookcase filled with music books, not to mention the books piled about a foot high on top of my piano. (yes, a real piano, not an electric keyboard thingamadoodle). My wife also has a file cabinet and bookcase full of music books.

 

My wife and I actually talk about music all the time.

 

Yes, let's talk about music!

 

Here's a simple yet complex question for discussion:

 

When playing a root fifth part in various kinds of music, we generally play the fifth of the chord lower than the root. Is it more important to keep the fifth below the root or should we sometimes play it above the root in order to make smoother voice leading between our notes?

 

Here's the question written in music. If you are not just a bass player (or a bass holder), you might be able to know how the examples sound without picking up an instrument.

 

http://www.jeremycohenbass.com/root.fifth.question.jpg

 

Discuss.

[Phil W]

In Bossa I'd play like 2b most of the time. This is because the bass part evolved from a Surdo drum part where the second note of each bar is louder, slightly longer and lower than the first. I would play the first 1/8 note in each bar as a ghost note and probably would omit most of the last 1/8 notes in each bar making the pattern more like 2 notes a bar.

In a band context, I might play the occasional bar with the fifth higher if it fits smoother voice leading. I do this maybe 5-10% of the time.

I've never played country. I'd not thought that the fifth is lower in that music too but I guess it is, now I think about it. I also play 1 5 patterns in some Klezmer and European music and the fifth is mostly lower in that too.

Why is that? Does it come from the oompah? Hmmmm.

[Trucks]

I agreed completly with Eric.

 

lol Who's Eric?

[Trucks]

I find KC quite intimidating, regarding theory. A lot of what is said goes waaaaaaay over my lil head.

[Phil W]

I find KC quite intimidating, regarding theory. A lot of what is said goes waaaaaaay over my lil head.

 

It can be intimidating. Just go in, have a search, try some of the voicings out on a guitar or keyboard and get the **** out of there before anyone notices. Whatever you do, don't ask a question! :grin:

 

[groover]

For the most part, there are some exceptions, I find myself playing the fifth lower when playing country or bluegrass. It just sounds better to me that way. On the last measure before a chord change I will often play the fifth higher to lead into the next chord, somtimes I may even play the fifth higher then play the root an octave up or another scale tone and walk down to the next chord, what ever seems to fit and sound good. I haven't played very much latin music but the little I have does seems to sound better (for the most part) playing the fifth higher. I never really gave any thought as to why this is so.

 

Most all of the music I play is either by ear or improvising off chord charts. If I know I'm going to be playing a certain style of music, I will go on line or tune in the appropriate radio station and listen to catch some basic groove and feel. I know a good bit of scale and chord theory from my keyboard playing days and can read music but I seem to rely more heavily on my ears and sense of feel/groove. I know my mental musical library could be expanded much much farther by forcing myself to learn more advanced theory and applying it properly, but with a wife, 4 kids and a full time job it gets tough trying to find time consistently to practice and learn. I do read through the theory threads and greatly appreciate the knowledge that is being shared. I recently found myself practicing in my head while at work the different modes and their application all thanks to fellow board members taking the time to share the wealth.

 

BTW, I still love reading about gear and never seem to grow tired of it!

[...]

Discuss.

 

I'd play 1a the bulk of the time in a country song and use 1b as a variation. Them country boys like it clean and simple. And no passing tones because those are the devil's notes.

 

I'd play 2b for a bossa because it creates a more coherent feeling of motion.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Anyway, it's quite correct that a bass is useless by itself.

 

It IS? News to me!

 

But, in that same vein, we are not musicians without our instruments. Take away the gear and all we have is a bunch of theory with no practical application of it.

 

So a composer (Mozart, say) is not a musician? Well, ok... bad example because someone with gear will eventually play the music. Unless of course, our composer is writing for a choir...

 

 

[DJR_Bos]

I'm definitely leaning towards 1b on the country. Those m7th jumps are not working, in me head, at all in this context. Though, often, these lines will sound more "authentic" without going to the 5th at all when preceding a chord change. I think I read that in something by David Huntgate and, darn it, I like it. So I might suggest the need for a 1c.

 

With bossa I'm gonna buck the trend and say 2a. In my head it just sounds better. With the right inflection I think a sound more like a drum would be attainable with that. But I've never been much of a Latin player.

 

[TimR]

We'll I was discussing that very rhythm Jeremy posted (2a and 2b), just the other day in the pub with Phil. Weird. But its amazing how many times that rhythm comes up in practically every type of music. Not just limited to Bossa Nova.

 

When someone asks if you can read music, if you are like me, the first image that comes into your mind is a a page full of dots for some great piano concerto. In reality for bass players the majority of the music I have come across is just as Jeremy has posted. I usually answer by saying I can read to a reasonable standard.

 

In Jeremy's example you even get the note names on the chords. How easy is that?

[TimR]

...

 

In fact, I think personal problems are the greatest obstacles to music. In most of my bands, I end up spend so much energy trying to negotiate greedy egos (my own and others) that music comes in second place. I find that many musicians are bashful to look in someone's eyes when they play. On the other hand, my deepest connection is with my best friend/drummer, and we can be two parts of the same animal. That takes years of trust building, something that shallow "pickup" bandsnever get to. Unfortunately, in the pro-music scenes of NYC and LA, nobody wants to rehearse and connect with people. They want to set the groove, play fast and hard over the tunes, and then split for the next gig. No wonder people aren't grooving and creating new styles like the mythical "old days." Very few want to take the time.

 

I say, in addition to worrying about chord changes and fast licks, try asking your band members how they are feeling at your next practice or gig.

 

7 years on and the song remains the same. Just the singers have changed.

[Steve Force]

Discuss.

 

I'd play 1a the bulk of the time in a country song and use 1b as a variation. Them country boys like it clean and simple. And no passing tones because those are the devil's notes.

 

I'd play 2b for a bossa because it creates a more coherent feeling of motion.

 

I'd say 1a for country, because on the 3rd beat the bass runs up to the next chordal root, and complements the kick (bass drum). Thoughts?

[Steve Force]

I find KC quite intimidating, regarding theory. A lot of what is said goes waaaaaaay over my lil head.

 

It can be intimidating. Just go in, have a search, try some of the voicings out on a guitar or keyboard and get the **** out of there before anyone notices. Whatever you do, don't ask a question! :grin:

 

Many bassist hang there and if your question is a good one you will get a good answer. Theory questions are IMO never scorned; rather, treated with respect and either answered or you are pointed to a good resource(just like here.)

 

Heck, I am fundamentally a bass jockey but have contributed 3 tunes to Dave Bryce's Keyboard Corner Compilation CD's and have never even felt that I was out-of-line in doing so. In fact, both me and Dan South (a fellow bass player) have tracks on the current release!

[Juancarlin]

Well, leave your otherwise useless bass unattended. Then I´ll take over and make them useful.

 

Well... specifically in the Bossa Nova example... I´d rather NOT be stuck with a single pattern. That is... remember the tale of Jobim and his peers playing with notes and chords accompanying a soccer player? "Jogando" ? Try get a look at the player´s (Soccer, that is) feet... they would not follow a steady pattern within the "jogo" (Playing)... so Why should I be stuck within a single pattern throughout a song? I like to think of it more like an accentuation thing.. you don´t always accentuate your speech in the same manner.. it usually depends on the mood you´re in. So I try to either "get" or "set" a mod in what I play, and tend to play with "accentuation" (in this case, placement of the 5th or other chord-related notes when comping) along the way. Therefore... I don´t play the same part twice...

 

This has also been used against me, since I tend to work better finding "the right vibe" or mood for a song, rather than playing a perfect, note-by-note written score. A couple times that gave me a headache, since the guy who called me wanted a machine-like interpretation of the written part that his previous bassist had left. I had to give up on the gig (because of that in part, and partly because band members were constantly arguing, and because the songs were long, 14 minute epic themes with lots of odd-meter changes and tonal challenges that I found totally alien to the songs by themselves).

 

Now that would be an interesting point... musicians who try so hardly to "sound difficult and complex" that, by doing so, kill the musicality of what they´re doing...

 

Needless to say, the aforementioned band managed to record a single disc, and disbanded during the mixdown process.

[Brocko777]

I think location placement is something that is missing here.

All of these examples are acceptable, 'depending' on the motion of the song/music.

I do like 2B for the bossa, but 2a would bring down nicely after a strong chorus break IMO.

Am I in my own world or could this be looked at that way?

 

Brocko

[Phil W]

 

Many bassist hang there and if your question is a good one you will get a good answer. Theory questions are IMO never scorned; rather, treated with respect and either answered or you are pointed to a good resource(just like here.)

 

Heck, I am fundamentally a bass jockey but have contributed 3 tunes to Dave Bryce's Keyboard Corner Compilation CD's and have never even felt that I was out-of-line in doing so. In fact, both me and Dan South (a fellow bass player) have tracks on the current release!

 

+1

 

My comment was tongue in cheek. I've posted a fair few times there and have some good friends over at KC. Even got to jam with one last year.

[Steve Force]

[Phil W]

Brocko.

No, I think both you and jcdlc72 make valuable points there.

It's not about playing a pattern for the whole song. Essentially though, the feel should be two half notes per bar with the occasional accent or twist and the emphasis on the second half note.

It helps to learn a few percussion parts to play Brasilian music. Also, I listened to thousands of hours of jazz before playing it but some people think that they can play Brasilian music without listening to it first. Of course, I have done a little the same with my Balkan project and just tried to bring my own thing to it. There's something very beautiful about an authentic bossa/samba rhythm though.

[Nicklab]

 

Yes, let's talk about music!

 

Here's a simple yet complex question for discussion:

 

When playing a root fifth part in various kinds of music, we generally play the fifth of the chord lower than the root. Is it more important to keep the fifth below the root or should we sometimes play it above the root in order to make smoother voice leading between our notes?

 

Here's the question written in music. If you are not just a bass player (or a bass holder), you might be able to know how the examples sound without picking up an instrument.

 

http://www.jeremycohenbass.com/root.fifth.question.jpg

 

Discuss.

 

Excellent post Jeremy!

 

On the country line, I would opt for 1b. I think it might complement the vocal better. Also, the entire part is half notes. I think alternating between the lower 5th and the upper 5th would probably be best for the tune. Especially if it's a relatively slow tempo.

 

I feel a bit out of my depth on the bossa nova example since I almost never play in that style. But my inclination would be to play 2a for that part. Bossa tends to be more of a dance beat, and I think the simplicity of going with the lower 5th would probably make the part groove a little more. Especially with those dotted quarter notes and 8th notes. Plus, I would think that going for that upper 5th might get in the way of a piano player, so potentially staying out of the piano player's way might be another consideration

[Davo-London]

I've just been asking about taking a few conga lessons. Never stand still.

 

Davo

[Sanvean]

Thanks Jeremy for your example, this is interesting.

[1111000]

Discuss.

 

I'd play 1a the bulk of the time in a country song and use 1b as a variation. Them country boys like it clean and simple. And no passing tones because those are the devil's notes.

 

I'd play 2b for a bossa because it creates a more coherent feeling of motion.

 

Exactly!

[5 string Mike]

Good stuff, Jeremy. As far as what I would do, it would depend on the rest of the arrangement. I like 1a for the predictable consistency, and it gives me a feeling of a litle more of a reinforcing/ anchor feel. 1b is a little more dynamic, not quite as firm of a feel as 1a. Bottom line, what I am feeling at the time would dictate which one I would do.

 

On the whole of the thread discussion, there is a difference between playing/ writing songs and making music. What makes a person a musician is what is in their head musically, and the means of getting that out to other people's heads. The gear we use to do it is part of the means we (as instrumentalists) use to communicate what is in our head.

 

Making music is like any other form of communication. It has to communicate something that makes sense to someone. For example, just because someone talks for 10 minutes doesn't mean they say anything (think of politicians). Just because someone has $10k worth of gear or 10 years of theory (or both) doesn't mean they can make music.

 

The means we use to communicate are different for everyone. For some, it's through an instrument, others thru pen and paper, mixing boards, arrangements, etc.

 

The gear we use is a tool to communicate our music, much like a writer would use a computer/ word processor as a tool. What is important is having the right tools for the job you are doing. That is different for everyone. Some can do a lot with a little, others need more.

 

I have played with people (I am sure we all have at some point) who had top notch gear and could barely play, and I have played with others who had run of the mill beat up stuff who could make it sound like a million bucks. Like in my days of an auto/truck technician, I worked with guys who had $20-30 grand worth of Snap-on tools who only used about half of them and were not much more than parts changers with a whole lot of debt.

 

So is gear and gear talk important? Yes. Is theory and theory talk important? Yes. Does gear make you musician? No. Does Theory make you a musician? No. These are tool sets used to execute a craft, and the practical use and application of these tools to communicate what is inside of you makes a musician.