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[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

If you constantly defend a greedy corporation like BOSE at every turn because they bought your unwavering loyalty by giving your band a product at no charge in return for your shameless promotion within an international music forum that you moderate (as well as those that you don't) - and you stand behind your convictions to the point where you actually call a forum member in good standing a liar... I don't think that's showing a lot of character.

Oh give me a break Tom. If you don't like Bose that's fine, but nobody "buys my unwavering loyalty" nor did Bose EVER ask me to defend or promote their product anywhere nor imply that I should. They gave us the product, we tested it for them, we play it out at gigs (and we aren't even obligated to do THAT), and that's it. No commissions, no monetary compensation, nothing. We would not be continuing to use the PAS two years later if we thought it sucked. That would make absolutely no sense for any band. But you know all this already.

 

This is all on my own time and I could make my life a lot easier by not sticking my neck out. But when I see somebody making obviously distorted statements, whether it's about politics or audio or the PAS, I usually do try to point it out. If somebody was talking trash about people you know personally, wouldn't you try to set the record straight?

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

http://justjustin.nsync.nu/emoticonsforjjb/popcorn.gif

 

- Jeff

[Dak Lander]

Originally posted by Jeff Da Weasel:

http://justjustin.nsync.nu/emoticonsforjjb/popcorn.gif

 

- Jeff

Mmmm, PASs some this way...

[MikeT156]

Lee:

 

The conflict comes into play when a musician that uses a "said" manfacturer's product, promotes the product to the point of worshiping "all things Bose"....."happens" to be a moderator too. Being your band got a freebee from Bose, your opinion is biased. That's a conflict as a moderator.

 

You should considering Dave Bryce's example of not promoting the products he represents, only answering questions about the products, with no added B.S. I realize that you don't work for Bose, but judging by your posts about them, "Could have fooled me."

 

 

Mike T.

 

Edit: P.S. Calling "where's" a liar was NOT cool.

[Wewus432]

Let's examine this statement:

Well, I got a great chuckle when they all looked at eachother and almost in unison said "cus it sounds like crap for anything over lounge volume!!!!!"

Who exactly are "they all"? Everybody in the place all lined up in a row speaking in unison, or was it ten guys, two guys, how many? What did they look like? Where were you on the night of December 14th 1999?

[Lee Flier]

Mike,

 

Other than the initial announcements I made when the product was introduced, which were confined to a couple of threads, I have not mentioned the product other than when someone asks a question about it, or when I see someone spreading incorrect information about it. I would do the same with any product I own whether or not I paid for it - like most people here do. I am not under a contract with Bose, and don't formally represent them any more than any other former beta tester of any product. So claims of "promoting Bose at every turn" and "worshipping all things Bose" would be gross overstatements (I don't even have any other experience of the company besides with this product - for all I know the Wave Radio sucks, and if I heard it and thought it did I'd say so).

 

I don't see the "conflict" because I don't stand to gain anything by stating my opinions. In fact, I only stand to lose valuable time in threads like these. But I don't like to see distortions stand without saying anything, if it's a subject that I know something about, and in this case I did.

[Franknputer]

Sorry - can any of you show us where Lee has promoted All Things Bose? AFAIK, all she has ever done was answer questions about & discuss the PAS. It's not like she has "Buy Bose!" in her sig line or anything.

 

In fact, check out what is on her web site re their use of the system:

 

If your venue doesn't have a house PA system and you hire What The...? (or any other band who uses the new Bose system), expect a welcome change in terms of setup time. You won't have to open up early and wait around for hours while the band sets up the PA and sound checks. And we know you'll love the sound and the effect on audiences!

 

If you do have a house PA system, we are not obligated to use our Bose Personalized Amplification Systems at every gig. We'll be happy to use your PA if you'd rather we did that. However, if you've got a weary sound man who could use a night off, we'll be happy to bring our systems along - we will not need a sound man and the Bose systems will not interfere with an existing PA system - they take up no more space than guitar and bass amps, and are set up in the same place as the backline.

http://www.what-the.com/bose.php

[Anderton]

Well, I feel I must point out that Lee flooded my mail box every day with emails saying "You must buy Bose." Furthermore, I was forced to delete over 2,000 posts where she urged forum people to buy Bose systems.

 

See? You can say anything you want on the internet!

 

Look, there's no conflict. She uses what she uses. She's a moderator. She tells people what she uses and what she likes, and doesn't like. That's one reason she's valuable as a moderator: She's out there USING this stuff and logging PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE that she can pass on to others.

 

She's said a whole lot more about how much she likes the Yamaha AW4416 than she has about the Bose. She's entitled to like gear, and frankly, I EXPECT her to talk about gear she likes. That's one of her values here.

 

And she doesn't have to use PAS if she doesn't want to. One more thing: You can think she got it for "free," but a working band providing feedback is something that deserves compensation. It's a good deal for the company because 1) they get it "at cost" and 2) they probably have cosmetic seconds etc. sitting around they can't sell anyway, and the band gets something they can use. It's not a whole lot different than paying money for something, except that services are being traded instead of cash.

 

Lee has never shown a lack of integrity in any aspect of her conduct here and I don't see that as having changed one bit.

 

AND -- major props to the Bose engineer for stepping in. I'm generally not a big fan of Bose products, by the way, so there's no special treatment here -- just credit where credit is due.

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

I'm sorry Craig. Decorum dictates that no moderator should use any audio gear at all, and merely repeat the opinions they hear from other internet authorities.

 

 

- Jeff

[boseengineer]

Thanks for letting me post here and giving me the opportunity to chip in.

 

I don't think its worth getting into a big fight over that. Most people are on this forum because they really care about making and listening to music and everybody needs to find their own way of making this work. That may or may not include our system and certainly everyone is entitled to their own opinion based on their own experience or whatever other source of information they trust. Honest sharing of information (good or bad) is a big part of that and that's what makes these forums really helpful.

 

In the end you can only look at all the information and draw your own conclusions.

 

I only posted here, since the designers of this system (which includes me) were portrayed as cynical, dishonest, and unethical and that's simply not true. I still don't fully understand how that impression could have been created in the first place.

 

To be perfectly clear: Lee does not get any compensation or freebies from Bose in any way form or shape. Whatever she does, she does on her own time and wallet. We are certainly grateful for her well informed (i.e. based on two years of actually living & playing with it), passionate, and positive contributions, but we certainly don't pay for that.

 

Thanks

[Anderton]

And on that note, it seems like a great time to close this thread. All sides have been heard from, and I believe that a lot of light has been shed on the situation.

 

In a way, this thread has managed to show the best and worst parts of the internet and forums, all in one convenient package!

 

Now go back to making music. And Mr. Boseengineer, you are more than welcome here any time! Again, major props to you for stepping into the fray. Don't be a stranger, I suspect you have expertise on other subjects as well

[Prague]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Mike,

 

Other than the initial announcements I made when the product was introduced, which were confined to a couple of threads, I have not mentioned the product other than when someone asks a question about it, or when I see someone spreading incorrect information about it...

Weren't you also posting about Bose here on the Musicplayer forums, Harmony Central, the Taylor Guitar forums, and at Bose forums, too?

 

I have no experience or opinion of your credibility, Lee, but having a system given to you and then hitting multiple forums for quite a while doesn't really reek of objectivity.

 

Had someone bought one and used it, I can't imagine them making such efforts just because they like it.

 

I imagine you like your guitar better than the PAS, but I don't recall ever seeing you on the Gibson forum. None of your posts at Harmony Central were about guitars. They are all about the PAS.

 

Just an FYI. I have no personal issue.

[Anderton]

AFAIK her posts about the Yamaha AW4416 and Keith Richards dwarf those about the Bose. She may even have made more posts about how much she hates loops than how much she likes the PAS! I guess all I'm saying is that if you look over her post history at SSS, you'll see a lot of variety. It's not like it's all Bose, all the time.

[Lee Flier]

Prague,

 

I'm glad you brought that up actually, because I hadn't thought of it but I can see where someone might get the impression you did. ALL of the PAS related posts that I contributed to other forums were because someone (usually a member of these forums) pointed out a thread to me on another forum and asked me to comment. I did not, ever, go to other non-Bose forums and start threads about the PAS or "promote" it. I went to answer people's comments and questions as I have here. At the time it was a brand new product and people were curious about it, and I was one of a very few people who could provide any hands on information.

 

And of COURSE I participate in the PAS user forum, I would if I'd bought it, too. I've been a participant in the AW4416 user forum since its inception, and I paid for that, and have no affiliation at all with Yamaha. As with the PAS, with the AW4416 I was a very early adopter, and if it came to my attention that somebody wanted information or had questions about it, I would address that, and still do - yes, "just because I like it." I like new toys and talking about stuff I'm passionate about, like most of us here. Again... I have never been obligated nor asked to post any of that stuff by Bose, and I certainly didn't get any personal benefit from doing so other than some people being appreciative and others jumping down my throat. End of story.

[Billster]

I want to understand something.

 

In the initial post (since edited to be a "-") Where indicated he worked the gig, I'm guessing the FOH system.

 

As I understand it, the Bose PAS is a specialized system ("P" stands for personal, right?) that requires some different training than running a typical FOH system.

 

So, Where, have you been trained in the particulars of the Bose PAS stuff?

 

Would it be more practical for an open jam session to use a traditional FOH system that can pretty much be "set and forget", compared to using a specialized system that requires a little different technique to get the most out of?

[Mr.WOW]

http://www.geek.com/hwswrev/conel/tabrads/h018bosewaveradio.jpg

[Lee Flier]

Billster, the PAS (yes the P stands for "personalized") is made to be used by individual musicians. It does not use a mixer nor normally use a FOH guy. It's designed to be used without a sound man at all. Individual musicians control their own sound.

 

Therefore it doesn't make sense to use them at a jam session where people are not used to using them and/or they want to have different people be able to run onstage easily and have someone else worry about the balance and sound. It only makes sense for bands or acts that have taken the time to work out their own sound using the system.

[Mr.WOW]

http://www.maquimsom.lda.pt/maquimsom/catalog/images/RADIO%20WAVE.jpg

[MikeT156]

I could see that the PAS would require some "training" to get an understanding of speaker placement, and how to "adjust" the column(s), being that it doesn't have a "traditional" mixer from what Lee said. I use an Altec Lansing folding horn speaker for the bass in my small stereo in my living room, and I put it in the corner where the sound can bounce off the walls. It makes for better bass from a small cabinet. When I was using a wooded Leslie with my B3 years ago, I put it in the corner where the sound could bounce off the walls and "fill the room".

 

A traditional FOH system for a larger venue may have been more appropriate for a jam session. Being that I wasn't there, I can only speculate.

 

Mike T.

[Lee Flier]

Mike,

 

The reason it takes awhile to get used to the PAS isn't so much because of speaker placement, but because they throw differently from conventional speakers, and most of all because you control your own sound and there is no separate monitor/FOH mix. What you hear is what the audience hears, and each musician has control of their own system. Therefore if you're not used to that and you start getting into volume wars or anything like that, it won't sound very good.

 

Also most people are used to hearing monitors in front of them and the PAS sits behind you. It's a very different experience from a traditional PA. It took us several weeks of working with it in rehearsal plus a gig or two to really get it dialed in the way we wanted it and be able to actually get used to the fact that we could trust what we were hearing onstage and know it was getting to the back of the room.

[MikeT156]

Lee:

 

Bose speakers have always struck me as more of a "Surround Sound" type of speaker system, rather than traditional directional speaker cabinets, so I get your drift. I was curious how those bass cabinets sound for carrying bass compared to the column speaker approach. I'm wondering how the two would work together. I guess I'd have to hear a setup to get a better understanding of it. Looking at pictures on a web site is not quite the same thing.

 

Mike

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by MikeT156:

Bose speakers have always struck me as more of a "Surround Sound" type of speaker system, rather than traditional directional speaker cabinets,

Yeah exactly.

 

I was curious how those bass cabinets sound for carrying bass compared to the column speaker approach. I'm wondering how the two would work together.

Well, you can plug up to two of them into the bass and it will do an automatic crossover from the column to the bass modules at, IIRC, 125Hz. The subs are more directional than the columns, so you do have to pay more attention to placement, but since bass is less directional than upper frequencies anyway the difference isn't TOO dramatic. The combination of the subs and column does make bass instruments sound different than usual. Our first impression when our bass player plugged in (using 2 subs) was that we've never HEARD the bass so well, you can really hear the fundamental notes in a new way, but you don't get the big bottom end "rumble" that you do from a big bass cabinet. Nor do the subs usually throw as far as the columns. This may or may not be a good thing depending on the size of the venue, style of music etc.

 

But, if you're not happy with how much bass there is, there's a line out for an external sub. You can use more Bose subs or any third party sub. The bass line out does a crossover at 180Hz. In our case (being a fairly loud rock band), we've concluded that in most cases we need three subs for our bass player and three for the drummer, so we're using both the internal amps and an external one. If we're doing a coffeehouse or something like that, we just use the two or even one if it's an acoustic gig. A local hard rock band who uses 5 systems, is using powered Mackie 18" subs on I think 2 of them. That would be overkill for us. So you can use as much or as little bass as you want and it really depends on your band and typical gigs how much you will need.

 

I guess I'd have to hear a setup to get a better understanding of it. Looking at pictures on a web site is not quite the same thing.

Yeah it's kind of tough to fathom without seeing and hearing it in person!

[MikeT156]

Lee:

 

Quote:

-----------------------------

A local hard rock band who uses 5 systems, is using powered Mackie 18" subs on I think 2 of them. That would be overkill for us. So you can use as much or as little bass as you want and it really depends on your band and typical gigs how much you will need.

-----------------------------

 

I guess you knew this was coming: FIVE Bose systems AND 2 Mackie Subs? Man, that adds up to a whole lot of Wave Radios $$$. I hope that band collectively has a deep wallet. After they pay for all that equipment, they can invest in hearing protection for the bass player.

 

 

Mike T.

[Brittanylips]

I find Lees comments on the PAS helpful and informative. I shared my own experience in a music store with one of these things and a clueless salesperson, and she pointed out that the clueless salesperson syndrome with PAS is something that has frustrated her too. I think shes right a better presentation would have garnered a better impression, and I continue to have some interest in PAS, although I wouldnt buy one unless they were a little more portable. For the current heft, Id just as soon use one of my other amplifiers.

 

Which brings me to another point. My favorite amplifier is from a company that sent me one for free. I love it, but I would be lying if I said that their gift doesnt influence my opinion. How could it not?

 

Im familiar with the arguments expressed in this thread and elsewhere why free gifts from audio companies dont influence opinions. These arguments are typically expressed by the recipients yes, I get free stuff, no it doesnt influence my opinion. Of course it does. When I get a free amp in the mail, it makes me like the company. People like to get gifts. And it certainly seems as if those here who get free stuff turn around and write nice things about the company that gave it to them. The companies realize this, thats why they do it. In my heart of hearts, I know its true. In your heart of hearts, you know its true as well.

 

Making this point does not make me popular. And others have made some good points that soften mine. I forget who made the point (I think it may have been Jeff) that it really doesnt matter, and I tend to agree. Its not the end of the world. Creating an informal army of biased users who are in a position to influence others is not exactly a threat to the security of the free world. And as someone else said (I believe it was Lee) that if something sucks, the recipient wouldnt be using it they could just as soon get a freebie from somewhere else. True enough.

 

But I think wed have a hard time finding someone in another field agree that free audio toys do not come wrapped in expectations the recipients are happy to fulfill. I cannot express how much respect I have for Lee, yet her response in this thread to Where seems fueled by loyalty to a company with which she has a relationship. If Where had said I worked a Behringer party, and guess what, they used Mackie, I doubt it would have generated the same response.

 

Personally, I think Where was sloppy with the details of his story, but why would he make it up? Someone probably told him what he heard, the person probably wasnt who he thought it was (of course the Bose employee will not admit to having said it), and at the end of the day, its not that big of a deal. If people such as Lee use these successfully, theyll sell themselves.

 

-Peace, Love, and Brittanylips

[Lee Flier]

LOL Mike... well yeah it's a lot of equipment but they each individually bought their own system (they're a 5 piece). And I guess they made some of their money back considering they were able to sell their guitar and bass amps (they use modelling stuff through the PAS's) plus their considerable PA gear AND their equipment truck. But the main reason this particular band went with the PAS was that they're an older established band and gigging was getting to be "not fun" for them. They'd have to meet up at one person's house, load the truck, get to the gig, load all that stuff in, spend a couple of hours setting up and sound checking, play all night, load all the crap back up, and meet back at the storage place so they could all help unload the truck before going home. Now, each of them just loads their own system in their own car, there's minimal setup and tear down time, then each packs up their own car and goes home.

 

So they were very motivated to make it work for them! But of course that's not the case for everybody - my band always got by with pretty minimal PA gear so the portability factor isn't as big for us.

[Danny M]

Just to offer an extremely "outside" perspective on what was first posted. Please note that I do not claim to have ever handled or heard a PAS system:

 

I once mixed FOH for a show at Main Street Coffee that was a hardcore band. The guitar and bass amps were pouring a lot of volume into the space, and it was (to my ears, when I had the plugs out) super loud (and not very pleasant.) I had a guy come up to me at FOH and say (actually, yell) something to the effect of "Nice job man!! They're awesome, aren't they?! Last night at Albee Square, they were twice as loud!! My ears are still ringing!! It was AWESOME!!"

 

I think the band was probably hitting between 105 and 110 dB SPL A.

 

What that story (and other experiences) say to me is that people consider ear-melting volume (and enormous distortion, harmonic or intermodulation) to be "good and loud." So, to say that the PAS can't produce anything above "lounge volume" is more to comment on the hearer's concept of "loud," versus an actual performance measurement of the PAS. If those particular guys (whoever they were) were expecting 115 - 120 dB SPL A, with an enormous bump in the frequency response at 2 kHz and enough low frequency energy to cause incontinence in cows a mile away, the PAS (from all that I've read) is probably going to really disappoint them. Similarly, to the "big box" live-sound reinforcement guys (like the people who can legitimately post on the LAB), the PAS must seem like a toy. When your concept of a "small" show is four dual-15"-with-ginormous-horns-tops sitting on an equal number of folded-horn subs (that no single human can even move), you're in a very different playing field from the Bose offering.

 

Now, perhaps this is reading too much into what was originally said. However, my personal experiences (even in small venue reinforcement) of "too loud isn't quite loud enough" seem to say something to me here.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Brittanylips:

But I think wed have a hard time finding someone in another field agree that free audio toys do not come wrapped in expectations the recipients are happy to fulfill. I cannot express how much respect I have for Lee, yet her response in this thread to Where seems fueled by loyalty to a company with which she has a relationship. If Where had said I worked a Behringer party, and guess what, they used Mackie, I doubt it would have generated the same response.

It would have if I knew the development people at Behringer personally and knew that it wasn't an honest portrayal of them. In that sense you're right that my comments were fueled by "loyalty" - not because anybody gave me free stuff, but because I know these guys personally and was in a position to know that Where mischaracterized them. And yes, that made me mad because I genuinely respect those guys. Like "boseengineer" said, the post made the PAS design team come off as personally cynical and unethical and that was what disturbed him, not the fact that people may not like the PAS or the company. And that was the same thing that disturbed me and that's why I said what I did. I KNOW that none of the actual PAS crew would ever have said anything like that.

 

I would do the same for anybody that I know personally whose reputation was getting trashed. I think if somebody got on here and said something that made, say, Craig look like that, most people here who know Craig would vehemently defend him, wouldn't they?

[Tedly Nightshade]

I'll tell you what I'm thinkin', Lee. Those xover freqs of 125 and 180 hz- those are WAY too high. That's right smack dab in the middle of the human vocal range. I like my xover well outta the way of the vocals.

 

But without using the xover, the PAS system goes down to what, 60 hz or so? 80 hz? I'd use the natual physical limit of the PAS as the xover- i.e., I'd run it full bandwidth, and then tailor a sub xover to fit as smoothly as possible with that.

 

My guess is that would sound way healthier.

[Lee Flier]

Well I think you're right Ted, that the 180 crossover for external subs is too high. We don't like to use external subs by themselves. I have no problem with 125 for the subs that go with the system, because they're specifically voiced for it. We are happy with the sound as it is, at this point. YMMV. Personally on my own system, I don't use a sub at all, as neither my voice nor guitar really go down there. But the boys have plenty of bass for our needs.

 

I HAVE told Bose (and the guy who posted here is a bass player as well as one of the principal designers of the system, so he's pretty aware of these issues!) that I would love to see an adjustable crossover and active subs in future versions. That would make it easier to tailor the bass in the system more exactly.

[MikeT156]

Lee:

 

I'm all to familar with the scenerio you described with the band that has 5 of the PAS systems. I was my own "roadie" when I was doing the hotel circuit for 3 years as a solo. In the early eighties, I carried an electric grand, a OBX (then OBXa) a Prophet 5, a heavy rack case, JBL cabinets, KB stands, and I'm already tired just remembering what a PITA it was. Yep, can't beat the convenience of so much of the new equipment. Another example: I use to carry around a 1977 Yamaha P2200 power amp in my rack case when I was on the road. Getting that up steps was an "adventure". It was amazing how quickly hotel maintenance people would "disappear" when I showed up towing a trailer full of equipment and looking for help.

 

In addition to lighter weight, "Near field" type speaker systems are "Better" for small venues by the nature of the design. I know first hand how a titamium horn can toast your ears at 30 or 40 feet in a lounge where there's nowhere to "hide".

 

The thing is, most of us "ancient" musicians that play for fun these days are careful about shelling out tons of $$$ for gear because what we spend is disposable income. I haven't played out (other than sitting in at the piano bar) in years.

 

There's lots of alternatives out there, all you can do is buy what's best for you and if you can afford Bose, EAW, Adam, go for it. No one will complain that your sound system sounds "harsh", and there's a good chance you won't be too loud for the venue you're playing.

 

Mike T.