w

[Robman2]

I am always tempted to try a game of horse, or a layup when I see that rig at a GC...it needa backboard.

 

R

[Lee Flier]

Been there done that Rob... one of my bandmates has a Nerf basketball set and we've stuck it on top of a PAS before.

[fantasticsound]

I had the same thought, Rob and Lee.

 

BTW - Rob, how was the concert?

[KB Gunn]

Hey Lee,

 

I went to the Bose site and clicked on live performances. I saw your band's pic and clicked on it. I then said, "What the...!!?" because the words that are there to describe your group are in some strange language from Vulcan or somewhere like that. All the other pics are in english. You may want to talk to your friends at Bose about that.

[Lee Flier]

LOL KB!! Hey thanks for the heads up, they JUST launched their new web site and I guess are umm... still getting some of the kinks out. I've notified them, thanks a lot.

[LiveMusic]

I know a one man band due who recently bought a PAS after being on the fence, lurking, for two years. A fellow one man band dude bought one and has loved his PAS. He finally bought one and says it's the best ever for him and his keyboard/vocal. He says nothing in this world can surpass it for vocals. He's also one who likes ultra-fast setup / teardown. He did a LOT of tweaking the e.q. and stuff for his keyboard sounds. He's VERY particular about sound.

 

Being a songwriter, number one for me is people hearing vocals clearly. Just last week, I went to a 'house concert' for a singer-songwriter except it was in a STUDIO. I could not clearly understand the guy. Muddy vocals. Conventional PA. In fact, I left after the first set. I thought that was pretty bad, being in a studio and the 40 of us, we're only like 20' feet away and the vocals were not clear. Blame it on the sound man, I guess.

 

Plus, the songwriter looked like a hobo. I said Screw this, I didn't pay $15 for this guy to show up in sandals and wrinkled jeans and wrinkled shirt and then I can't understand him.

 

Plus, plus, he yakked for two minutes with boring stories between each song. SHUT UP and play already. 30 seconds is enough yakking. Or your stories had best be damn funny or touching.

[KB Gunn]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

LOL KB!! Hey thanks for the heads up, they JUST launched their new web site and I guess are umm... still getting some of the kinks out. I've notified them, thanks a lot.

WOW Lee!!! Bose got the Kinks to demo the PAS?? What a great marketing ploy

[Robman2]

So it's not just me.

 

Cool...

[where02190]

I assume the artist was playing acoustic instruments? If you can't hear them w/o a PA at 20' they need to learn about dynamics and projecting, as this would not be a fault of the PA unless the idiot running it was thinking they were mixing a rock band.

 

IMHO far too many venues and artists think they need a pa when in fact they do not, or need very very little. Case in point the local (excellent) mexican restaurant. They have a singer/guitarist who roams the place on fri and sat nights, singing traditional spanish/mexican stuff. Nice, except he has a wireless headset and transmitter on his acoustic guitar, and it's so loud you cannot hear yourself think, nevermind converse. I have asked several times that it be turned down, well that lasts about 5 minutes, then it's ear splitting again, only now it's also distorting, as the musician turns up at his end, overloading inputs.

 

This sort of musician does not need a PA at all.

 

I no longer patronize this restuarant because of this, and actually wrote a letter to the management explaining why, to which I got no response. I had friends who went there recently who informed me the situation is still the same.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by KB Gunn:

WOW Lee!!! Bose got the Kinks to demo the PAS?? What a great marketing ploy

LOL!! Now why did I just know somebody was going to say that?

 

We DO do a few Kinks covers, actually.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Originally posted by where02190:

IMHO far too many venues and artists think they need a pa when in fact they do not, or need very very little.

I agree very strongly!

 

Lee's a dedicated follower of fashion. Hence the PAS and the PAF's.

[theblue1]

Originally posted by LiveMusic:

...Plus, the songwriter looked like a hobo. I said Screw this, I didn't pay $15 for this guy to show up in sandals and wrinkled jeans and wrinkled shirt and then I can't understand him.

 

...

You could have walked out on about half of the greatest songwriters of the 60's that way, my man...

 

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by theblue1:

Originally posted by LiveMusic:

...Plus, the songwriter looked like a hobo. I said Screw this, I didn't pay $15 for this guy to show up in sandals and wrinkled jeans and wrinkled shirt and then I can't understand him.

 

...

You could have walked out on about half of the greatest songwriters of the 60's that way, my man...

 

You went to see Bob Dylan, Duke??

.

.

.

..

.

..

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

[Flemtone]

Originally posted by LiveMusic:

...Plus, the songwriter looked like a hobo. I said Screw this, I didn't pay $15 for this guy to show up in sandals and wrinkled jeans and wrinkled shirt and then I can't understand him.

 

Plus, plus, he yakked for two minutes with boring stories between each song. SHUT UP and play already. 30 seconds is enough yakking. Or your stories had best be damn funny or touching.

Reminds me of going to The Bottom Line in NYC one night in the 70s. I went to see Orleans (before 'The Hits', when they were still a good funk-band. Got there early, sat right at the stage, saw a bum slouching at the bar drinking heavily. He put his beer bottle into his coat pocket just as the stage announcer said, "Now, Atlantic Recording Artist Tom Waits".

 

This drunk-looking guy shambles on-stage, looks around for a minute, then sits at the piano and absolutely kills the audience for 45 minutes. He was great, partly because it was so unexpected. His first album had just come out and had gotten virtually no airplay (yet). At the end of his set, he stood up, thanked the audience, took his beer back out of his coat pocket and went back to the bar, where it looked like he proceeded to continue his drinking (or was it the piano?). Orleans came out, did a killer set, but we stayed for the late show also...to see BOTH artists again.

 

Sometimes you can't judge an act by the image it portrays. I learned that lesson that night.

 

just thought I'd share...

 

peace,

Tim from Jersey

[LiveMusic]

Haha, I guess if the guy would have been really good, it would have been okay but he got on my nerves and hell, he's a no-name. We have this deal going on where singer-songwriters do a show and get $15 a pop. Dang good pay. Wouldn't you love to get $600 for a gig?

 

If he were a real bum, it would be easier to take. It just appeared lazy to me and unprofessional. This is kind of a classy gig.

[boseengineer]

Please allow me to add a different perspective of what where02190 wrote about the Jam that took place in Hudson, MA last Friday.

 

I am an Engineer working in the Live Music Technology Group of Bose Corporation and our product is the Bose Personalized Amplification system. I have been participating at this particular event for the last 8 years or so.

 

The jam is an old Bose tradition started in the organizer's basement. He basically felt that there are so many musicians and styles at Bose that it would be great fun to just get together and jam. It has been wildly successful and has grown steadily over the years. It's not a corporate sponsored event, since that would restrict somewhat of how "politically correct" and acceptable the music selection would have to be. A couple of years ago I played in a "bass orchestra" (5 basses + vocs + drums) and we played Spinal Tap's "Big Bottoms". If you are familiar with the lyrics, you may understand what I mean. This year's bands ranged from classical piano, over jazz, blues, rock, punk, to avant-garde and a 17 piece big band. It's great fun and all people thoroughly enjoy themselves.

 

Anyway the rules are as follows: No regular gigging bands or people that play out together on a regular basis (to preserve the jam character), every band has a 20 minute slot with 5 minutes dedicated to getting on and off the stage, you can't bring your amp or stomp boxes, you have to use the rigs that are permanently setup on stage. You can play whatever you want as long as it's not longer than 15 minutes.

 

We certainly discussed using the Bose Personalized Amplification System setup for this year's jam but decided against it. Here is why:

 

- Contrary to what you may believe, only a few people had significant mileage on our new system. The product is fairly new and Bose is a big corporation. Although we do have loaners and do regular "try-out" session, many musicians in the company have no or very little experience yet. It does take a little of getting used to and this particular format of an event simply doesn't allow for that.

 

- at the same time, the extremely short changeover time and vast variety of bands and setup didn't allow for a good layout of remote controls, so that the players could control themselves. Moreover most people need the little setup time there is to get used to the amp rig, the keyboard and the drum setup. There is just no extra time to fit in a "here is your remote and this is how it works" session. That means that a central mix location was required.

 

- We dont have lighting, staging, drum riser, etc. so outside help was required (and paid for) anyway.

 

- Most of the gear that we have for this kind of event was tied up in a different large event

that was already booked when the jam date came together.

 

A few corrections, if I may:

 

Did a show friday night with the Bose PAS R&D staff, a few hundred in all.

The event is open to the public. The musicians are nearly all Bose employees, but it's certainly not restricted to R&D. It's a colorful mixture of all departments and business units, from director level to line worker.

 

Third, EVERY ONE of the musicians that played this gig had indepth detailed experience with the PAS.

As I've pointed out above, that was not the case. There were over 50 musicians in the jam and they came from all parts of the company. The Live Music Technology group is only a small part of Bose Corporation (yet).

 

I'm simply sharing what the guys who designed it are saying behind closed doors. Personally my opinion is that for the solo musican or small combo doing lounge/small club work there is no finer sound system. Bose id marketing it to the small-mid sized club band, which is exactly what these bands were, all wth the opportunity to have PAS systems, and since they designed them they are intimately familiar with their workings, and many fo them admitted to having PAS systems of their own. Yet they chose to spend considerable money to rent a "traditional" system.

Again, we are only a small group. From our (meaning Live Music Technology) R&D group only two people were present. None of us has said anything the along the lines you suggest. I certainly don't recall talking to you. It wouldn't make any sense anyway: Why would I work on a project and a technology that I don't believe in. Personally, I like to believe, that I'm not that desperate for a job yet.

 

Unfortunately I don't know who you talked to and I'd be really sad and disappointed if anyone would have said something along the lines of "cus it sounds like crap for anything over lounge volume!!!!!". I'll ask around and see if I can find out more detail. Again, it doesn't make sense to me. Why would they "admit" to owning a system, when they don't like it? Even for employees it's a significant investment (we don't give these away for free) and I just don't understand why anyone would spend that kind of money if they weren't convinced it works for them musically.

 

I hope that clears up some of the confusion about this event.

[fantasticsound]

Thanks for your input!

[Magic Mendez]

Hey Musical People,

I have a 14 piece band called "Unified Tribe" . We bought 5 of the Bose PAS systems as soon as they were released.., and we don't play clubs because we're to big to FIT in most clubs. We only play theaters. However, we don't use them in the traditional sence. We use them as our primary stage monitors. They are serving us INCREDIBLY well in this capacity. I get absolutely NO feedback from any of the 12 mics on stage. We replaced all of our "wedge" floor monitors with 5 Bose PAS poles. We call them the "Bose Poles" . Our stage sound is down about 40% lower than it used to be when we used the traditional monitoring method. I am now able to sing softer and actually HEAR myself over my small orchestra . FWIW, I think that the Bose Poles are great. They work excellent for my particular needs http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/045.gif. I'm out...

 

With respect & Honor,

Magic

[Bon Mot]

Originally posted by where02190:

Did a show friday night with the Bose PAS R&D staff, a few hundred in all. The event, which is not a Bose sanctioned event, is put on by the many employees of Bose who play music, have bands, etc. Basically an organized Jam session, with about 20 various acts that play 3-4 songs each over a 6 hour eating and drinking festival.

 

So, I asked some of them, how come you don't use your POS system for this. Afterall, the room is a basic function room, about 80x150, 12' ceiling, certainly ideal for what the system was designed for, right?

 

Well, I got a great chuckle when they all looked at eachother and almost in unison said "cus it sounds like crap for anything over lounge volume!!!!!"

 

Straight from the horses mouth....

And then the horse rode into town-

 

D'oh! I know you didn't intend for your employer to read this. Man, that sucks for ya Where.

 

Let this be a gentle reminder, dear forumites, you don't always know who you're talking shit to or who you're shoving aside to nuzzle up to Swedien's arse (ie: Ani)

[where02190]

Doesn't suck for me, as I was simply passing on what was told to me.

 

Sucks for Bose maybe what their own design people think of the product.

[Lee Flier]

... except that even if anybody actually said what you quoted them as saying, it wasn't their own design people, as hard as you tried to make it look that way. Bose doesn't HAVE "a few hundred" people in their R&D department, let alone just for the PAS. I knew that and that was my first clue that you were full of it. I know nearly everyone on the PAS R&D staff and it is a VERY small group, so I figured it wouldn't take long for me to get in touch with them and clear this up.

 

The fact that you got so much of your story completely wrong of course calls the entire thing into question. And I'd say it sucks for you because at worst you made the whole thing up (most likely), at best you've shown everyone on this forum that you will publicly blab and mischaracterize things that are told to you informally by your clients. Not too cool no matter which way you look at it.

 

Anybody's entitled to their own opinion about the PAS or anything else, but twisting a story for the purpose of attributing things to people who didn't say them (at best), and who also happen to be your clients... well that speaks volumes.

[fantasticsound]

Whoa, Lee! I agree with much of what you said, but calling Where a liar rather than sticking to calling his facts on who he was talking to goes way over the line.

 

I don't think he lied at all. I do think he misunderstood where the Bose folks he spoke to worked. As Mr. boseengineer mentioned, they could be anything from line workers to maintenance to office workers. In any case, they don't appear to be engineers from the live sound section.

 

And blabbing it to a forum wasn't particularly intelligent move, IMO. I should know. I have a big mouth, myself. Sometimes I have to kick myself to remember what is and isn't appropriate to share with people.

 

Las Vegas stole an old, important road motto that applies to many other situations; What happens on the road stays on the road.

[where02190]

If the Boseites didn't want their opinions heard they should have kept it to themselves. Maybe they were janitors for all I know, but that's not what they told me.

 

AFA what you think Lee, i really don't care. I'm simply sharing what was told to me, and how it was told. I've no need to defend my reputation, and I could care less whether you believe me or not. I call em as I see (or in this case) hear em, and those who know me know that's what I am about.

[Botch.]

Originally posted by where02190:

I call em as I see (or in this case) hear em, and those who know me know that's what I am about.

Then why did you erase your original post?

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Whoa, Lee! I agree with much of what you said, but calling Where a liar rather than sticking to calling his facts on who he was talking to goes way over the line.

 

Yup. Whatever happened to civility?

 

If you constantly defend a greedy corporation like BOSE at every turn because they bought your unwavering loyalty by giving your band a product at no charge in return for your shameless promotion within an international music forum that you moderate (as well as those that you don't) - and you stand behind your convictions to the point where you actually call a forum member in good standing a liar... I don't think that's showing a lot of character.

 

Sorry if I seem to be stepping on toes here, but the truth seems obvious by the words that have been written in the posts above, among others.

 

This is a real disappointment. Perhaps it's time to move on.

 

Tom

[Tedster]

Now that this thread is called "W"...shouldn't it be moved to the political forum?

[Bon Mot]

ITGITC, and FantasticSound, why don't you use some critical thinking.

 

Does the original story sound reasonable or plausible? No it doesn't. Not even a bit.

 

How about the possibility that some janitors, who were representing themselves to Where as the Bose PAS r&d engineers, all shouted in unison "The PAS is crap!?" Is that a reasonable possibility?

 

 

Lee did "stick to the facts." Her pro BOSE bias has nothing to do with whether the original story is true.

 

 

 

Where- If you ask me I'll edit that quote of yours from my previous post.

[Lee Knight]

Originally posted by where02190:

Forth, I am not talking trash as that is not my style, I am simply passing on info.

That's funny!

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Whoa, Lee! I agree with much of what you said, but calling Where a liar rather than sticking to calling his facts on who he was talking to goes way over the line.

 

I don't think he lied at all. I do think he misunderstood where the Bose folks he spoke to worked. As Mr. boseengineer mentioned, they could be anything from line workers to maintenance to office workers. In any case, they don't appear to be engineers from the live sound section.

No they weren't, but it's obvious that he went out of his way to make it look as though he knew for a a fact that they were. He said they all were PAS people when at most only 4 of them were (out of "several hundred") and only two of those were R&D. He said "EVERY ONE of the musicians that played this gig had indepth detailed experience with the PAS" (and that's a direct quote) when there's no way that was true. And I think he knew exactly what he was doing by saying all these things and ascribing the things he said to PAS engineers. I DID stick to the facts and it's obvious he was twisting the facts to suit his agenda.

[Philip OKeefe]

http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/happy/popcorn.gif