Interesting Quote from one of the world's great spiritual leaders

[realtrance]

Yes, I, too, find it odd, from a religious leader no doubt too insulated from the realities and history of the medieval serfdom that was Tibet, until the Chinese (gently, in fact) tried to modernize it over the last 30 years.

 

rt

[Jotown]

Originally posted by realtrance:

Yes, I, too, find it odd, from a religious leader no doubt too insulated from the realities and history of the medieval serfdom that was Tibet, until the Chinese (gently, in fact) tried to modernize it over the last 30 years.

 

rt

What!?!

[John Sayers]

I recently saw a doco by Michael Palin, ex Monty Python, who travelled through the new Tibet. (BTW - I'm consistantly told I look like him)

 

His general gist was that they were much better off, the young had education and ambitions to go to Beijing and further their education, as opposed to being seconded into a monastry aged 6 - 8, never to see your parents again.

 

The Yak herders had generators, 4WD and all the associated benefits.

 

The Patola still dominates Lhasa, a magnificient building, but only physically, not socially or economically.

 

Cheers

john

[Jotown]

It is definitely time to move this to the political forum. I would urge you to get your facts about Tibet from a source other than Monty Python. The persecution of Tibet by China is well documented. If you would like to see a great movie about Tibet and the Dali Lama you should see "Kundun" directed my Martin Scorcesee.

 

The illegal occupation of Tibet was anything but gentle, and historical revision by some who don't care will not change the facts.

[M Peasley]

Marxism is a very complex system of ideas that ranges all the way from technical analysis of the means of production in a society, through a sweeping interpretation of history, on to a philosophical system regarding the nature of man and society, and finally off into the wild blue with eschatological speculations about the prophesized (by Marxists) doom of capitalism and the eventual emergence of utopia after what Marx called, in the vaguest terms possible, the "withering away" of the state.

 

Add to this innumerable interpreters and tweakers of Marxism in the scholarly world, and the dismayingly disparate systems of government that claim to be Marxist, and you have a situation where it just won't do to toss around a few soundbites from the Communist Manifesto or Mao's Little Red Book or, for that matter, something the Dali Lama happened to say.

 

I will say that Marxism has an appeal (to intellectuals and politicos) and a resiliency that almost (but not quite) rivals the major religions and no doubt it will come back into fashion at some point, albeit new and improved and free from some of the "excesses of the past" which will be greatly regreted, etc etc etc.

 

But it don't appeal to me, and believe me, I had a bunch of Marxist professors trying hard to convert us grad students at the U of Denver. This was before the walls came down in the old USSR....

 

M Peasley

[nursers]

Originally posted by M Peasley:

Marxism is a very complex system of ideas that ranges all the way from technical analysis of the means of production in a society, through a sweeping interpretation of history, on to a philosophical system regarding the nature of man and society, and finally off into the wild blue with eschatological speculations about the prophesized (by Marxists) doom of capitalism and the eventual emergence of utopia after what Marx called, in the vaguest terms possible, the "withering away" of the state.

 

Add to this innumerable interpreters and tweakers of Marxism in the scholarly world, and the dismayingly disparate systems of government that claim to be Marxist, and you have a situation where it just won't do to toss around a few soundbites from the Communist Manifesto or Mao's Little Red Book or, for that matter, something the Dali Lama happened to say.

Exactly my point

[Geoff Grace]

Originally posted by nursers:

quote:

---

Originally posted by M Peasley:

Marxism is a very complex system of ideas that ranges all the way from technical analysis of the means of production in a society, through a sweeping interpretation of history, on to a philosophical system regarding the nature of man and society, and finally off into the wild blue with eschatological speculations about the prophesized (by Marxists) doom of capitalism and the eventual emergence of utopia after what Marx called, in the vaguest terms possible, the "withering away" of the state.

 

Add to this innumerable interpreters and tweakers of Marxism in the scholarly world, and the dismayingly disparate systems of government that claim to be Marxist, and you have a situation where it just won't do to toss around a few soundbites from the Communist Manifesto or Mao's Little Red Book or, for that matter, something the Dali Lama happened to say.

Exactly my point

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by realtrance:

Yes, I, too, find it odd, from a religious leader no doubt too insulated from the realities and history of the medieval serfdom that was Tibet, until the Chinese (gently, in fact) tried to modernize it over the last 30 years.

 

rt

?????

 

Are you joking?

 

The Chinese violated a treaty, rolled in to Tibet (which was an independent country at the time), forcing the Dalai Lama to flee into exile. Tibet has been the victim of the worst of Chinas well-documented human rights atrocities, having faced over four decades worth of Tiananmen-like agony since the Chinese invasion in 1949. Chinas human rights violations were brought to light to the majority of the world in 1989 due to the infamous shooting of the unarmed student protesters in Tiananmen Square. The following is a small list of some of the documented atrocities that have befallen Tibet and its people:

 

* Over 1.2 million Tibetans, or one-fifth of the population, have been killed as a direct result of the Chinese invasion and occupation. Most of the Tibetans killed have been unarmed.

 

* China has been dumping nuclear waste on the Tibetan plateau, polluting the headwaters of many of Asias major river sources. China has admitted to this, confirming the existence of a 20 square mile dumpsite for radioactive pollutants near Lake Kokonor, the largest lake on the Tibetan plateau.

 

* China has established a massive resettlement policy of Chinese to Tibet, causing the Tibetans to become minorities in their own country. Chinese is the official language, and Tibetans are frequently barred from education, or if admitted to schools, are educated in an attempt to make them "Chinese" in their way of thinking. Tibetans are regularly subjected to a dizzying array of Chinese propaganda, including movies, newspapers, and radio. Tibetans who help to promote The Chinese cause are rewarded monetarily, and gain rights that most Americans take for granted.

 

* One out of every ten Tibetans has been imprisoned, usually for merely exercising free speech in a non-violent manner.

 

* Religious freedom has been abolished. More than 6,000 monasteries have been destroyed, with only a handful remaining, having been restored for the benefit of tourists. Media people who are allowed to visit China are taken to sections of Tibet made to look like a movie set.

 

* Strip-mining in Tibets forests, depletion of natural resources, and the extinction of wildlife are chief results of Chinas environmental policy.

[KenElevenShadows]

Political forum......political forum...

[Jotown]

Thank you Ken.

 

I hate historical revision, especially when it becomes propaganda. That anyone who would use the word "gently" when referring to the Chinese occupation of Tibet shows how little of the history of this region they understand.

 

Thanks for posting that info.

[KenElevenShadows]

You're welcome.

 

As you could probably tell, I was desperately trying as hard as possible to not turn this into a "political" thing, but: 1.) I've met the Dalai Lama, 2.) I'm involved in Los Angeles Friends of Tibet, 3.) I have traveled extensively in the Himalayas, 4.) I'm ethnically Chinese and have traveled in China and have relatives who tell it like it is in China, and 5.) I'm extremely well-informed about these issues.

 

"Gently" is not a word I would use with China in respect to Tibet or a lot of other things.

 

China has hideous human rights abuses (think *tens of millions* of people killed, "disappeared", tortured, displaced, threatened, or forced into labor camps for starters). Chairman Mao, when told how many millions of people might be killed in a confrontation with the Chinese Army, was reported to have said, "We've got hundreds of millions of people. Losing ten million people doesn't matter."

 

My uncle literally saw the streets of his town flowing with blood during his lifetime because of all the mass killing by the Chinese Army. This is not poetic license. He said that it was not just pooling in the street, but running down it.

 

He was forced at gunpoint to teach children a bunch of bullshit propaganda about how wonderful the Chinese leadership was and how they should snitch on their parents or siblings if they were saying bad things about the government. I could go on and on...

 

Most of the Western press and the U.S. government loves to overlook this because they are a huge trading partner.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've posted this before, but it bears repeating:

WHY are most goods made in China instead of India, despite the fact that India is

1.) a democracy,

2.) has *cheaper* labor than China, and

3.) speaks English?

 

I'll tell you why. Because India has labor unions and China does not. Because India does not have government-sanctioned prison labor camps and China does.

[realtrance]

All I can say is:

 

http://www.swans.com/library/art9/mparen01.html

 

rt

[Franky]

Is it possible to cut and paste a thread from one forum to another?

 

I.E. Cut this thread from here in SSS and post it in the political forum?

[Jotown]

Originally posted by realtrance:

All I can say is:

 

http://www.swans.com/library/art9/mparen01.html

 

rt

Actually..... you didn't say anything; you just posted a link to someone elses thoughts.

 

You can critique someones culture all you want, but you still have no right to rape, pillage and steal their country. I am sure that Cortez could say the same about the Inca's, but that doesn't make invasion and conqest and the destruction of a peoples culture ok.

 

Why is that so hard to grock? And why do you want to revise history after the fact?

 

What is your agenda about?

[Tedly Nightshade]

I'll tell you, there is damn little incentive here in the States for me to be truly great at anything. There are no financial rewards for making great music. And you know there have been quite a few brilliant musicians from the Soviet Union. Their incentive wasn't the opportunity to get rich, any more than it is for any other serious musician.

 

And of course in our system here, some pretty crappy stuff is very highly rewarded, and most of the really fine stuff never sees the light of day.

[realtrance]

Jotown,

 

I posted a link to an actual, well-known, reliable scholar's detailing of the history, rather than the propaganda, of China's relationship with Tibet.

 

Somehow, all those poor tortured souls in Tibet were immensely relieved to see the Dalai Lama and his priestly class gotten rid of, and there hasn't been, in what, 40 years? any major interest in any kind of return. The only "uprisings" against the Chinese assistance to the people of Tibet were in fact mostly CIA-sponsored, as were the propaganda films "Kundun" and "Seven Years in Tibet" (the latter based on a story written by a former member of the Nazi SS, aka Gestapo).

 

The article linked above indicates that the author gives full permission to people to point a link to it, which is what I did.

 

I don't feel I need to add to the excellent historical work already done in that article.

 

Very Best,

 

rt

[KenElevenShadows]

RealTrance, from the article you posted:

 

"Like many erstwhile rulers, the Dalai Lama sounds much better out of power than in power. Keep in mind that it took a Chinese occupation and almost forty years of exile for him to propose democracy for Tibet and to criticize the oppressive feudal autocracy of which he himself was the apotheosis. But his criticism of the old order comes far too late for ordinary Tibetans. Many of them want him back in their country, but it appears that relatively few want a return to the social order he represented."

 

Actually, the Dalai Lama would agree with much of this paragraph, although he proposed democracy a fairly long time ago. The Dalai Lama has actually been critical of the former theocracy that Tibet had in the press as well as in public conferences, and admits that pre-occupation Tibet had a lot of problems (although they never once had a famine - the famines occurred only after the Chinese invaded).

 

So you make a valid point in one area....BUT...none of this negates China's brutal regime change, genocide, or anything else that Jotown or I have written.

 

Also, I must correct your bit about the uprisings. Absolutely, some of the uprisings have been CIA-sponsored (which the Tibetans freely admit, and which has been well-documented in several documentary films), although that was mostly decades ago (and most of it was launched from across the border in Mustang, which is politically part of Nepal). However, more of the uprisings have been started by Tibetans themselves.

 

My hope is that you take the time to read what has got to be a jillion books on the genocide China has inflicted on Tibet and learn that just because pre-occupation Tibet wasn't perfect doesn't negate China's brutal oppression.

[realtrance]

Ken,

 

I thank you for your level-headed response. I do think the Dalai Lama's intentions are benevolent, as I'm sure were Nicholas and Alexandra's prior to the Russian Revolution; but there's often a gaping abyss between the reality an insulated elite sees, and the reality the people living under that elite has to deal with, and we've heard plenty of romantic violin-playing about the former, and not a lot about the harshness, misery and pain of the latter -- in this country, too, presently, I might add.

 

Happy Memorial Day Weekend, and Power to the People!

 

rt

[henryrobinett]

Interesting read realtrance. There are ALWAYS minimally two sides to every story and mostly many more tha that. I have always distrusted the propaganda I hear from our own government. This is a good reminder to myself. I trust the propaganda of other governments no more/no less either btw.

[Enrique]

So what does the future hold?

 

Well, I just read this book by Daniel H Pink that many of you would be interested in.

 

Its called " A Whole New Mind".

 

He says you should ask yourself these questions:

 

1. Can someone overseas do it cheaper?

 

2. Can a computer do it faster and/or cheaper?

 

If so, your probably out of a job.

 

Accountants, engineers, MBA graduates and many in the medical and legal

profession will become the new blue collar worker.

 

In short, those who are good at inventing, designing and selling will prosper in this new

Conceptual Age.

 

i.e Industrial Age ( factory workers) Information Age ( knowledge workers) Conceptual Age

( creators ).

 

If you thought Capitalism was unforgiving, you havent seen anything yet.

[olhhyperback.com]

Originally posted by realtrance:

[QB] Of all the modern economic theories, the economic system of Marxism is founded on moral principles, while capitalism is concerned only with gain and profitability...

This isn't actually accurate. The assumption of both capitalism and communism is that the government won't make certain individuals or groups of individuals less than fully responsible and economically liable for any harm they cause to others.

 

We no more have real capitalism than the soviets had real communism. Moral principles get trampled on in the name of economic theory, religion and other forms of "moral high-ground" every day. It's hard to argue when both sides are generally right about each other's faults.

[Jokerelli]

Originally posted by realtrance:

The failure of the regime in the Soviet Union was, for me not the failure of Marxism but the failure of totalitarianism. For this reason I think of myself as half-Marxist, half-Buddhist.

 

---The Dalai Lama in Marianne Dresser (ed.), Beyond Dogma: Dialogues and Discourses (Berkeley, Calif.: North Atlantic Books, 1996). [/QB]

He later joined the band half man/half biscuit, toured with Half Japanese then chucked it all because his chops were half assed.

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by realtrance:

Ken,

 

I think you for your level-headed response. I do think the Dalai Lama's intentions are benevolent, as I'm sure were Nicholas and Alexandra's prior to the Russian Revolution; but there's often a gaping abyss between the reality an insulated elite sees, and the reality the people living under that elite has to deal with, and we've heard plenty of romantic violin-playing about the former, and not a lot about the harshness, misery and pain of the latter -- in this country, too, presently, I might add.

I would agree with you. Based on my experience, the Dalai Lama's intentions do in fact seem benevolent. He's quite critical of the former theocracy, perhaps shockingly so.

 

There's a fascinating book by Orville Schell entitled Virtual Tibet: Searching for Shangri-LA from the Himalayas to Hollywood that I think you might be interested in reading. It examines the "utopia myth" many Westerners have about pre-occupation Tibet, looking into why it occurred in the first place, why Westerners are so attracted to this myth, and how damaging it is to Tibetans who want independence or autonomy today.

 

Part of the myth was because of movies/books such as "Lost Horizon" by James Hilton and things of that ilk, portraying Tibet as this idyllic lost land. And T. Lobsang Rampa "The Third Eye" and other books (which I believe is curiously still categorized as non-fiction!) also paint this utopian view as well. And the usual movies and books...

 

And I would agree that Orville Schell has a very good point that this "utopian" viewpoint does a grave disservice to Tibetans.

 

AND so does glossing over how brutal China's treatment of Tibetans. Let us hope that the Tibetans have some relief from the oppression soon.

 

Thanks.

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by henryrobinett:

Interesting read realtrance. There are ALWAYS minimally two sides to every story and mostly many more tha that. I have always distrusted the propaganda I hear from our own government. This is a good reminder to myself. I trust the propaganda of other governments no more/no less either btw.

That's a great point, Henry. It's important that people don't take things for granted, but instead, look into it for themselves. Rarely is anything completely black and white. There's usually far more complexity than that, but the press (and often, people) have a tendency to view things more as a sporting event and less as a complex, nuanced web.

[Phait]

Kinda related - anyone aware of a worthy paperback or somesuch about Buddhism, $15 or under? Always been curious about Buddhism.

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by realtrance:

...we've heard plenty of romantic violin-playing about the former, and not a lot about the harshness, misery and pain of the latter -- in this country, too, presently, I might add.

You know, this last comment made me think of something else that's really quite unrelated, but quite important. In helping out Captive Daughters , a non-profit organization dedicated to ending sex trafficking, one of the perceptions that we are constantly "battling" in the U.S. is how people here feel that sex trafficking is someone else's problem, or that it happens elsewhere. But tragically, it's a multi-billion dollar industry (that's right, "billion" with a "b"), and there's no escaping it. It happens here, and it happens here a lot. You may have seen a huge article about it in the NY Times some months ago, or in Rolling Stone. But still, the perception is that it doesn't happen here. But a lot of people are smuggled here for "sexual labor" through our borders, and a surprising number of young girls in this country also fall prey to this. They're literally held prisoner, so this isn't about free will here. It's really staggering. And I have to admit that while I knew it was a problem here, I had NO IDEA of the magnitude of the problem in this country or overseas.

 

And gee, my post here is a real freakin' pick-me-up on Memorial Day Weekend , and I apologize for that, but I couldn't help but think of this when you mentioned that.

 

I'll try and leave a few "happy" posts before I log off...

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by Phait:

Kinda related - anyone aware of a worthy paperback or somesuch about Bhuddism, $15 or under? Always been curious about Bhuddism.

I cannot recommend this book more highly. It's really helped me in the last year:

"Anger" - Thich Nhat Hanh

 

I found that it is amazingly practical for Westerners, and rather than get mired in esoteric Buddhist beliefs, it examines how to deal with anger in a very practical, modern manner. And besides, this guy is just overflowing with wisdom, and to be able to get some of that from a really well-written book is awesome.

 

One of the lessons that I came away with from this book was one of the aspects of dealing with one's own anger. He says that just like if you were in a burning house, you would first run out of the house to safety rather than look around for why it started. Similarly, he says, if you are angry, you are suffering, and should first deal with your anger rather than looking around to lay blame. I explained it really poorly, but if that makes any sense to you, then have a look at this book. And if it doesn't, my apologies, as I found it to be really helpful and profound!

[deanmass]

Ken, of all the great people on here, YOU are the dude I wish I could live closer to and talk with on a regular basis. There is just oo much to talk about via email and the forums.

 

I think, regarding China, and this is a huge paraphrasing, but Japans' comment of 'China being scary' was dead on about how I feel about them. I also find it odd that India has been demonized somewhat because of offshore software programming, but we really forget that India is a WAY better country than China from the standpoint of human rights (from what little I know).

 

I watched a dvd called Ethics and the World Crisis;Dialgoe with the Dalai lama. Very good, very interesting, and pretty surprising some of the observations he had. I specifically liked that he was able acknowledge good ideas based on his own feelings and beliefs, regardless of how they may play out in the media (ie. references to socialism, etc.). I also like dhis very pleasant demeanor. He seemed truly joyful, but very serious. An interesting person.

[KenElevenShadows]

Thanks, hopefully we can hang out at some point!

 

There's a couple of very interesting articles in what I think is the most recent issue of Atlantic Monthly about China's emerging role in the coming century and how best to deal with them from the perspective of the United States.

 

I'll try and have a look at that DVD!

[Tedly Nightshade]

Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows:

something else that's really quite unrelated, but quite important. In helping out Captive Daughters , a non-profit organization dedicated to ending sex trafficking, one of the perceptions that we are constantly "battling" in the U.S. is how people here feel that sex trafficking is someone else's problem, or that it happens elsewhere. But tragically, it's a multi-billion dollar industry (that's right, "billion" with a "b"), and there's no escaping it. It happens here, and it happens here a lot. You may have seen a huge article about it in the NY Times some months ago, or in Rolling Stone. But still, the perception is that it doesn't happen here. But a lot of people are smuggled here for "sexual labor" through our borders, and a surprising number of young girls in this country also fall prey to this. They're literally held prisoner, so this isn't about free will here. It's really staggering. And I have to admit that while I knew it was a problem here, I had NO IDEA of the magnitude of the problem in this country or overseas.

We are well insulated from the consequences of our actions and reality in general. A lot of people just plain would not believe what you are saying here, Ken, although I know it to be true.

 

People need to know.