REAL history?

[nursers]

You are not a kid, you are a man. Starting thinking like that and you're half way to beating the bullshit you obsess about. The other half is learning about what's going on around you, whether it be history, altruism or science. History is made by individuals, but tends to pass those by who look inward all or none of the time...

[jackpine]

One of the finest history books available was written by my friend Howard Zinn. The title is "A Peoples History of the United States".

 

As was mentioned earlier, history is usually written by the victors. What Howard did was to write a history book voiced from the perspective of the victims of history. Quite a read. And, recently updated.

[ihategarybettman]

Knowing history is important because it's so much more than places and dates; by studying it, you learn the stories of the world's peoples (including your own), discover different cultures, gain some perspective, and come to a better understanding of the causes of today's conflicts and successes. Having knowledge of how people who came before us faced many of the same problems we currently face may give us some insight toward their resolution, or show us how to repeat success. By turning a blind eye to the past, you would have self-imposed restrictions on the knowledge base you rely on to face the future. Also, you would have a limited understanding of what other people in the world have gone through and continue to face, which can only result in further misunderstanding, confusion, and conflict. Ignorance, particularly the self-imposed kind, doesn't help anyone.

[Phait]

Originally posted by ihategarybettman:

By turning a blind eye to the past, you would have self-imposed restrictions on the knowledge base you rely on to face the future.

Elaborate please... theoretical situation or some such thing.

[nursers]

Originally posted by Phait:

Originally posted by ihategarybettman:

By turning a blind eye to the past, you would have self-imposed restrictions on the knowledge base you rely on to face the future.

Elaborate please... theoretical situation or some such thing.

Cmon Phait, you ain't that dumb.

 

An example: you meet a Jewish girl. Without understanding at least a little of Jewish history over the past 75 years, you ain't going to get very far in the relationship without causing offence or coming across as a self-centred ignorant slob. (Based on some assumptions around degree of orthodoxy etc)

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by Phait:

Tell me where I'm going to repeat an atrocious country invasion, genocide, battles, wars, crooked politics and the like.

 

Where? When?

 

Now, if you rephrase that: "Those who cannot learn from their very own history are doomed to repeat it." -- makes more sense to me.

 

Do you see my point? Look I'm all up for enlightenment, and maybe my mind is in a very narrow tunnel right now but this is how I see things. What am I missing exactly?

The same thing Nurses is missing when he says above that understanding Jewish history would help you to understand a Jewish girl.

 

I don't think it works like that. I don't think you study Jewish history to understand a Jewish girl. You study history to understand people more generally and specifically, their struggles, triumphs, failures, relationships, paths. Reading, for example, Thomas Wolfe's page-turning history of modern art or his history of the Intel corporation and computer culture, might very well turn out to be the better light to illuminate that girl for you.

 

You're right that you're not going to repeat an atrocious country invasion, genocide, battles, wars, crooked politics and the like. But you are repeating other mistakes, and you express them regularly in your posts. Reading history might help you avoid them, and lead a more fullfilling life.

 

For example, if you delved into the history of Frank Zappa, I think you would likely spend less time obsessing about the shape of your head.

 

-Peace, Love, and Brittanylips

[nursers]

Originally posted by Brittanylips:

Originally posted by Phait:

Tell me where I'm going to repeat an atrocious country invasion, genocide, battles, wars, crooked politics and the like.

 

Where? When?

 

Now, if you rephrase that: "Those who cannot learn from their very own history are doomed to repeat it." -- makes more sense to me.

 

Do you see my point? Look I'm all up for enlightenment, and maybe my mind is in a very narrow tunnel right now but this is how I see things. What am I missing exactly?

The same thing Nurses is missing when he says above that understanding Jewish history would help you to understand a Jewish girl.

 

I don't think it works like that. I don't think you study Jewish history to understand a Jewish girl. You study history to understand people more generally and specifically, their struggles, triumphs, failures, relationships, paths. Reading, for example, Thomas Wolfe's page-turning history of modern art or his history of the Intel corporation and computer culture, might very well turn out to be the better light to illuminate that girl for you.

 

You're right that you're not going to repeat an atrocious country invasion, genocide, battles, wars, crooked politics and the like. But you are repeating other mistakes, and you express them regularly in your posts. Reading history might help you avoid them, and lead a more fullfilling life.

 

For example, if you delved into the history of Frank Zappa, I think you would likely spend less time obsessing about the shape of your head.

 

-Peace, Love, and Brittanylips

Of course Jewish History won't help you understand the girl as such, but it'll provide a context, fleshed out with actually talking to that person. I was also using a very basic example as Phait seems to believe history doesn't apply to the everyday.

 

[ryst]

Originally posted by Brittanylips:

Originally posted by Phait:

Tell me where I'm going to repeat an atrocious country invasion, genocide, battles, wars, crooked politics and the like.

 

Where? When?

 

Now, if you rephrase that: "Those who cannot learn from their very own history are doomed to repeat it." -- makes more sense to me.

 

Do you see my point? Look I'm all up for enlightenment, and maybe my mind is in a very narrow tunnel right now but this is how I see things. What am I missing exactly?

For example, if you delved into the history of Frank Zappa, I think you would likely spend less time obsessing about the shape of your head.

 

-Peace, Love, and Brittanylips

NICE!! I have noticed a pattern that occurs when Phait posts on certain threads. Somehow it turns into a discussion about Phait.

[Phait]

Cause I'm awesome.

[ryst]

Originally posted by Phait:

Cause I'm awesome.

[philbo_Tangent]

Originally posted by ryst:

From school books, classes, stories from grandparents, parents,teachers, stories from other people, the History channel, many many books at the library, television, documentories, and interviews.....How can one deciefer what's real from what's incorrect when it comes to world history? How can I, a mere mortal, tell what is accurate and what is just fabrication? For instance, i would like to get some books on WWII, Vietnam, the Kennedy Assasination and other things but I don't know where to begin and what to believe. So what do I do?

In general, you can safely assume history is written by the people who won the war. I wouldn't put too much faith in any of it; it's no different than the TV news.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by philbo_Tangent:

...In general, you can safely assume history is written by the people who won the war. I wouldn't put too much faith in any of it; it's no different than the TV news.

Are you kidding? That's more the reason to put your faith in it! You're learning how to win from winners!

 

Seriously, history may be the stories we tell that describe cultures, peoples in a specific place and time, but the lessons that can be gleaned are far from simply societal issues alone.

 

We study the great literature of Greek and Roman philosophers, among other authors from other ages, because the themes they write about are universal. The details may not pertain to modern people, but the core ideas are just as important to us as they were to ancient peoples. Life, liberty, happiness, love, and negative issues as well. Pain, poverty, greed.

 

The study of cultures from many locations and ages can only aid us in dealing with our own issues, here and now. (And in the future..)

 

And history can be as personal as the study of specific individuals who are remembered for beautiful or terrible greatness. Studying who they were can be inspiring and often times, enlightening to individuals today.

[2_dup13]

You want to know the truth?Read anything and REPLACE:

 

freedom

culture

progress

war

state

enmies

religion

communication

information

education

boundaries

peace

revolution

 

with:

MONEY

[Super 8]

Originally posted by Phait:

Ok, so your point is I learn history so as not to repeat it.

 

Tell me where I'm going to repeat an atrocious country invasion, genocide, battles, wars, crooked politics and the like.

 

Where? When?

 

But how does it enable me as a person to be any better or more cautious. I'm not a pawn in a war, I'm not running for governor, I'm a 22 year old kid.

Phait, do you vote?

[Super 8]

Originally posted by Phait:

I'm a 22 year old kid.

By the way -not to derail this thread, although I think Ryst got his answer-, but this is really very telling.

 

How long do you plan to remain a kid, Phait?

[Ernest Buckley]

Just remember, the winners write the history books.

[aliengroover]

Didn't see this quote...but it was Napoleon who said, "History is nothing but agreed upon lies." Quite accurate in the general.

Peace

[Ernest Buckley]

Never found the subject interesting. The older I get, the more I realize how much we repeat it. So...nothing really sure how useful it is to rehash the past. Do we really learn from it though? Sometimes. Genocide still exists. Wars are still fought. People are still starving, I see the homeless everyday, racism is alive and well, etc...

 

Seems we need to learn ethics before we learn history.

[ryst]

Well, after reading all the responses that had nothing to do with Phait, I decided that I will no longer pursue the truth, I will turn my back to the past, and I will watch Oprah and MTV everyday.

[Ernest Buckley]

How long do you plan to remain a kid, Phait?

LOL, uh...I mean ouch.

[Super 8]

Originally posted by Ernest Buckley:

How long do you plan to remain a kid, Phait?

LOL, uh...I mean ouch.

I didn't mean it as a cut down.

I think Phait's a great guy....I really do.

[philbo_Tangent]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Originally posted by philbo_Tangent:

...In general, you can safely assume history is written by the people who won the war. I wouldn't put too much faith in any of it; it's no different than the TV news.

Are you kidding? That's more the reason to put your faith in it! You're learning how to win from winners!

 

Seriously, history may be the stories we tell that describe cultures, peoples in a specific place and time, but the lessons that can be gleaned are far from simply societal issues alone.

 

We study the great literature of Greek and Roman philosophers, among other authors from other ages, because the themes they write about are universal. The details may not pertain to modern people, but the core ideas are just as important to us as they were to ancient peoples. Life, liberty, happiness, love, and negative issues as well. Pain, poverty, greed.

 

The study of cultures from many locations and ages can only aid us in dealing with our own issues, here and now. (And in the future..)

 

And history can be as personal as the study of specific individuals who are remembered for beautiful or terrible greatness. Studying who they were can be inspiring and often times, enlightening to individuals today.

All you can learn from the winner's perspective of history is how to lie. IMHO...

[DC]

ryst, you need this book (it's an amazing read):

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/sim-explorer/explore-items/-/0684818868/0/101/1/none/purchase/ref%3Dpd%5Fsxp%5Fr0/103-2398449-1839022

[techristian]

This probably should go to the political forum, but here goes anyway.

 

We can already see history being re-written right before out eyes. Remember 911 ?? Have you noticed, in less than 5 years, how some have started softening up toward the hijackers who brought down the World Trade Center? Some have have even gone so far as to side with the hijackers (in idealogy). Who knows what will be in the history books 100 years from now.

 

Dan

 

http://teachmedrums.com

[Super 8]

Originally posted by techristian:

Have you noticed, in less than 5 years, how some have started softening up toward the hijackers who brought down the World Trade Center?

No. I haven't noticed that. Who told you this?

[Phait]

Super - I don't vote because ... and I've said this before, and I know what everyone will say but - I don't vote because my vote doesn't matter. Electoral college and all. Now, it also comes to this - I don't trust anybody in government to do what they say, and I don't understand the government enough to know half of what they talk about or do. Are there issues in this country that I have an opinion against or for? Absoutely. Does that mean I should vote for who shares my ideals? I don't know.

 

As for how long I intend to remain a kid? Well for a serious answer, that depends on the context. But what I meant by saying I'm a 22 year old kid is I'm still young, and still learning, and am not one who thinks he has a handle on everything.

[KenElevenShadows]

I haven't noticed any softening of the hijackers at all, and most of my friends are what some would describe as sorta "left-leaning" and take a dim view of our current administration. But regardless, I think everyone knows that these people commit heinous crimes and should be brought to justice or killed or whatever.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Phait, if you are a 22 year old in the USA, I think it is a very real possibility that you may become a pawn in a war that is a replay of Vietnam! You might want to do some research into the draft and into conscientious objectors and all that. That's pretty damn close to home, I would say.

 

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Frankly I learned a lot more from studying on my own than I ever did at school. It's not too late for you to do the same.

That is very true of myself as well.

 

But the one thing I learned at the insanely demanding college I went to was to read between the lines. And I can't read anymore without reading between the lines-

 

who is writing this?

why are they writing it?

what are their assumptions?

how does it relate to the context?

 

etc.

 

Also, take a look at the documentation, footnotes, etc. What does the author use to support their case? What secondary sources are referred to?

 

Hint- there are no footnotes on television!

 

I've been reading this big stack of California Historical Society journals that I rescued from a recycling bin. I'm very impressed with the scholarship and integrity of the work by and large.

 

You might do well to visit your local historical society. I went there one day and got in a conversation about racism in my area- an oldtimer pulled out old newspapers with editorials about running the Chinese out of town. I was amused to see an item about the Junior Girls' Triple K! Seemed like the 4H or something. The newspaper itself was a very biased source, but you could learn from it nonetheless.

 

One book that I can recommend very highly (Zinn's People's History of the United States is a good one too!), is Eduardo Galleano's The Open Veins of Latin America. He systematically and very readably demonstrates that what is going on in the world today is exactly what has been going on for the past 500 years at least. A must read.

[Phait]

I'm not worried about any draft until it happens. Nothing I'd be able to do about it anyway, I don't have any legal excuse for them to exclude me.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Originally posted by Phait:

I'm not worried about any draft until it happens. Nothing I'd be able to do about it anyway, I don't have any legal excuse for them to exclude me.

How do you know?

 

Plus, when you get drafted, might be a little late to start researching the organization you are becoming part of.

 

Me, I just have a thirst for knowledge, and since I was taught a whole lot of lies, I'm making a priority of unlearning them.

 

That's one of the things I have in common with my mate- she brings home about 10 library books every couple weeks and usually reads all of them. I respect that.

 

She just hung out at the viciously rigorous college I attended but she's better educated than most of the people who graduated! She's self-taught. Her formal education was a bad joke. That's pretty damned cool.