REAL history?

[ryst]

From school books, classes, stories from grandparents, parents,teachers, stories from other people, the History channel, many many books at the library, television, documentories, and interviews.....How can one deciefer what's real from what's incorrect when it comes to world history? How can I, a mere mortal, tell what is accurate and what is just fabrication? For instance, i would like to get some books on WWII, Vietnam, the Kennedy Assasination and other things but I don't know where to begin and what to believe. So what do I do?

[ViLo]

Hakuna Matata!

[ryst]

Originally posted by ViLo:

Hakuna Matata!

[Blue Strat]

In my experience, you have to read a lot of different sources and then decide for yourself what is "real". No two people look at the same set of events the same way. Dig up the facts. Conflicting "facts"? Look for as many sources as you can and pick apart the various accounts.

 

What in particular are you looking for? Economics? Politics? Social issues? There's a lot of different topics for each of the eras you listed. WWII is usually broken down into the Atlantic Theater (Europe & Russia) and the Pacific Theater (Japan & the South Pacific).

[noneverstuck]

The most important thing I learned from Mr. Braithwaite in my high school Advanced Placement History class was the first sentence he ever uttered to us:

 

"History is opinion."

 

Deef

[Bon Mot]

Time Machine, Duh! Next question.

[StoneinaPond]

Originally posted by Deef:

The most important thing I learned from Mr. Braithwaite in my high school Advanced Placement History class was the first sentence he ever uttered to us:

 

"History is opinion."

 

Deef

 

Once you are past the generation that actually experience the historical moment, you are faced with Deef's quote.

 

Educated guesses at best.

[ihategarybettman]

With all due respect to Mr. Braithwaite, the other important thing to remember is that most history is written by (and for) the victors. Blue Strat is correct: check out several sources, remember that the facts are being filtered through time and perspective, and then decide for yourself what is "real".

[Felix_dup1]

Even if you were there in person, you'd have to write it from your own perspective (which would not be all-inclusive). History, at best, is a moving target (especially if you subscribe to deconstructionist theories), and should all be taken with a grain of salt.

[Botch.]

Just go down to the SSS Political Party. That's where I get my info.

[fantasticsound]

Just for example...

 

Mr Goetsch (gay-t-ch) opened my eyes to the white-washing of history in junior year of H.S. It was the early 1980's. Kids my age thought Vietnam and treatment of Native Americans (known as "Indians" ) were the only infractions the U.S. Gov't was responsible for. The U.S.S.R. was an ongoing imperialistic entity bent on world domination. But the U.S.?? We were saving the world. Sometimes that meant "steering" world events, but it was all necessary for peace...

 

Well, that was most of what we believed. Then we learned about Panama.

 

Panama was part of Colombia when the idea of a canal connecting the Atlantic and Pacific was put forth. After failed attempts to make it a reality, yet another request was made to build the canal. In order to get the necessary local support, we agreed to help rebels in what is now Panama to resist Colombian rule. When rebels took over, the Colombian government attempted to send reinforcements to put down the coup, but by sheer coincidence, the U.S. navy was running drills by lobbing shells on the beach that provided the only, readily usable path to their destination.

 

It was a hundred years later before we gave control of the canal to the Panamanians.

 

After Mr. Goetsch enlightened us about several other deliberate interference by our government that was all but swept under history's rug, I realized I'd never truly know the truth about any historical events again.

 

And as Felix mentioned, I can't even trust my own perspective to be fair, accurate and complete.

 

Read as much as you can and research the source of the information you read before taking it as the gospel truth. Even if it's credible it won't really be THE truth.

[russrags]

You won't get it from Jack Cafferty or Nancy Grace ... I can't believe how prime time NEWS can slander and inject their own opinions on matters. I was so pissed last week that I e-mailed Jack Cafferty and he replied ... "Thanks for telling me what my job is, how did I ever get along without you" Ha!! Ha!! Now that's funny. But my problem was that he called Michael Jackson a "weirdo pedafile" on Natinial TV .... "BEFORE" a jury called him that. It does make me sick .. how high profile cases end up being "just entertainment" ... NOW THAT'S SICK.

 

You'd "THINK" in this country, you could at least turn on the news and hear the TRUTH.

 

Russ

[Brittanylips]

"History is written by the victors" is the answer most often given since Plato, echoed in "1984" by Orwell as "'Who controls the past,' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.'"

 

You could say that any given period is a series of conflicts, and it is the victors who get to burn their perspective into the history books, whether the Romans over the Barbarians, the Allies over the Axis, or Men over Women. The victors not only get the spoils of war, but also get to describe it.

 

-Peace, Love, and HistoryLips

[RABid]

Originally posted by Blue Strat:

In my experience, you have to read a lot of different sources and then decide for yourself what is "real". ...

[Phait]

This is one reason I never liked history class. How do you know if any of it is bullshit or truth. The other reason I didn't like history is because I don't need to know it.

[FormerOceanwaySlave]

"The other reason I didn't like history is because I don't need to know it." -Phait

 

Words fail to express my disappointment at the self-inflicted ignorance that the above statement represents.

 

Cheers,

 

Alan Tomlinson

[Phait]

I'm psychic. I knew the "ignorance" word would come up.

 

Anyways, this is how I have felt, and I still feel. It may change in the future but this is me right now. I guess that's too bad then, right?

 

All history has taught me is that the world is full of atrocious, never-ending conflicts. Not that the world is full of only that, but really what else do we learn in history? Conquering countries, wars, battles. Maybe the origin of a few laws or doctrines. History does repeat itself, but I find no practical use in this day of what I learned.

 

So, you can label me ignorant, or you can realize that I am my own person who sees unnecessary education when it's there.

[nursers]

Other 'unnecessary' stuff worth getting educated about:

 

Industrial revolution

Development of empiricism / scientific method

Globalisation

 

All directly impact how we live our lives today.

 

And the 'bullshit versus truth' quandary applies to every single human pursuit including science, maths, financial management etc etc. There is no black and white in 99.9% of things.

[antimatter]

I agree with Bluestrat, read multiple sources. Traditional History school books present many parts of history glorifying the rich folks of the time; leaving out the seedy sordid stuff. But read em' anyway! Then get the other side from guys like Howard Zinn. That'll give you the stuff that's not in the other books.

[ihategarybettman]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Phait:

The other reason I didn't like history is because I don't need to know it.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

George Santayana

[Lee Flier]

Phait, if you don't know about history there are MANY ways in which your life today, and your ability to make decisions, will be affected.

 

I agree that school history texts are usually biased and they focus on wars and such. This is a macro view of history which, as has been pointed out, is always "written by the victors" and it's tough to get any sense of what really happened.

 

Apart from the above mentioned advice to read from several different sources, it helps a lot to read PRIMARY sources. That is, if you can, don't read someone's later interpretation of what happened... read collected letters, journals, public records and other such stuff from people who were around at the time.

 

It's one thing to read about the Civil War from people who wrote about it later (mostly from the perspective of a handful of wealthy people who decided its course) and quite another thing to read about it from soldiers who fought in it (on both sides! definitely read both sides), everyday shopkeepers and farmers and slaves who were affected by it... etc.

 

Primary sources are always the best if you can find them! They allow you to make up your own mind to a greater degree.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by FormerOceanwaySlave:

"The other reason I didn't like history is because I don't need to know it." -Phait

 

Words fail to express my disappointment at the self-inflicted ignorance that the above statement represents.

 

Cheers,

 

Alan Tomlinson

Well said, Alan.

 

 

Originally posted by ihategarybettman:

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Phait:

The other reason I didn't like history is because I don't need to know it.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

George Santayana

Beat me to it!

[RABid]

I love watching things like "1000 Tribes" and other histories of races and countries. You find that people across the world are not that much different and every group seems to have its own time to excel. People are so quick to judge someone by heritage and where they stand today. A snapshot in time could lead you to believe that some races are superior. History tells you that those on top today may be struggling tomorrow while another ethnic group has a turn at the top.

 

The sad part for me is that when in school I was like so many other kids. I thought I knew everything and could not understand why I should study anything but math and science. And like so many I frequently wish I could do it over and study the next time around.

 

Robert

[Lee Flier]

Robert,

 

Frankly I learned a lot more from studying on my own than I ever did at school. It's not too late for you to do the same.

[phaeton]

Phait,

 

....nevermind....

 

ryst,

 

I empathize with you completely.

 

IMHO Bluestrat hit it on the head, and most everyone else refined it. Especially the part about first-hand accounts from people who were there to experience it.

 

Something that's very striking too, is there are a lot of elderly people who are forgotten in nursing homes or otherwise left behind by family and under-lived by friends.

 

They are extremely lonely and just itching for someone to tell stories to. Most of them have outgrown their desire to "prove something" so usually they'll tell it like it is.

 

For all my enjoyment of the WWII Picture Show on the History Channel, i would really like to sit down with some 60+ year old Germans, Italians and Japanese and gain some perspective.

[Lee Flier]

I just lost a friend who was one of those guys... he passed away in March at 82. Was a pilot in WWII, and a far above average guy at any age... with age he just gained even more wisdom. There is just no replacing those folks once they go, yet so many of them are ignored. Granted, not all of them are as good natured or mentally sharp at that age as my friend was right up to the end. But we should all seek out some people who are, and learn as much as we can while we can... like you say most of them have a huge desire to pass on what they know.

[ViLo]

Originally posted by ryst:

Originally posted by ViLo:

Hakuna Matata!

After reading some of the answers, I was rigth!

 

Hakuna Matata!! For me!

 

I don't worry about history, What do I gain by knowing history? endless arguments? nah! I'm OK!

[ryst]

Originally posted by phaeton:

Phait,

 

....nevermind....

 

ryst,

 

I empathize with you completely.

 

IMHO Bluestrat hit it on the head, and most everyone else refined it. Especially the part about first-hand accounts from people who were there to experience it.

 

Something that's very striking too, is there are a lot of elderly people who are forgotten in nursing homes or otherwise left behind by family and under-lived by friends.

 

They are extremely lonely and just itching for someone to tell stories to. Most of them have outgrown their desire to "prove something" so usually they'll tell it like it is.

 

For all my enjoyment of the WWII Picture Show on the History Channel, i would really like to sit down with some 60+ year old Germans, Italians and Japanese and gain some perspective.

Yeah, me too! I interviewed my grandma about WWII for a high school project. Her story was so real, I felt like I could see it, touch it, feel it. I felt like I was dancing in the streets with her when she heard that the American troops landed in Normandy. That was just her american perspective but her husband was over there so it was still amazing to hear. How can anyone not be moved by history? I have seen Abe Lincolns chair that he was shot in. Blood stains are forever imprinted on the chair. I have seen all kinds of stuff like that over the years. It is completely fascinating and I just want to continue to learn more. Phait, i am not going to call you ignorant but you really owe it to yourself to check these type of things out. You might be suprised at how much you can learn.

[Tusker]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Frankly I learned a lot more from studying on my own than I ever did at school.

My experience has been the same. When in school I dodged history. It was just a bunch of dates and names.

 

Now I actually dig out the books. I want to understand how we got here.

 

As to the orginal question and my point of view:

 

A slanted history is better than no history at all. If you can get many people's slants you will get closer to a "truth." And of course you will likely get closer to "the" truth if you doubt it's existence. I love paradoxes.

 

Jerry

[Phait]

Ok, so your point is I learn history so as not to repeat it.

 

Tell me where I'm going to repeat an atrocious country invasion, genocide, battles, wars, crooked politics and the like.

 

Where? When?

 

Now, if you rephrase that: "Those who cannot learn from their very own history are doomed to repeat it." -- makes more sense to me.

 

Do you see my point? Look I'm all up for enlightenment, and maybe my mind is in a very narrow tunnel right now but this is how I see things. What am I missing exactly?

 

Also, I have tremendous respect for the millions who made a positive difference and fought for our freedoms, although it probably sounds like I don't give a fuck. In history class, we had some Vietnam vets explain their experiences and it was engaging and moving and worth understanding the why/how of it. But how does it enable me as a person to be any better or more cautious. I'm not a pawn in a war, I'm not running for governor, I'm a 22 year old kid.