Drugs & Music - AGAIN

[Steve LeBlanc]

In case anyone was wondering...I'm completely drug-free and have been for years...no drugs for me

 

 

[Angelo Clematide]

my contributions to toxicology:

 

"The dose makes the poison"

 

Its like orchestration, too much flutes kill the music or like The Man Who Viewed Too Much or Too Much Free Time.

 

All substances are poisons; there is none which is not a poison. The right dose differentiates a poison and a remedy. Whether a chemical is harmful or beneficial depends largely on the dose.

 

Paracelsus (1493 - 1541) was a famous alchemist, physician, astrologer, and general occultist.

Paracelsus pioneered the use of chemicals and minerals in medicine.

 

Paracelsus, sometimes called the "father" of toxicology, wrote: "The dose makes the poison." In other words, the amount of a substance a person is exposed to is as important as the nature of the substance. For example, small doses of aspirin can be beneficial to people, but at very high doses, this common medicine can be deadly. In some individuals, even at very low doses, aspirin may be deadly. Dose-response assessment involves considering the dose levels at which adverse effects were observed in test animals, and using these dose levels to calculate an equal dose in humans.

 

http://www.biology.arizona.edu/chh/problem_sets/toxicology/01t.html

 

The Dose, that's the point why i am still alive and many bandmates from the late 60ties and early 70ties are not here with me anymore.

[way2fat]

Myshell made the point earlier that there is a natural drive to alter ones consciousness; elephants will travel 40 miles to find some fermenting bananas, back where I grew up the Robins would get lit up on pyracantha berries and fly into windows. I was quite a toker in my younger days and enjoyed it a lot and don't regret it. I had a friend down the street who was a gifted artist- I mean world class seascapes- who has no talent at all now due to too many drugs. My best friend died at 42 from too many drugs. OTOH, while my mom was taking chemo and radiation therapies for the cancer that killed her, she wouldn't eat except when she smoked some weed.

[theblue1]

Well, gee, if you throw out the virtuosi and musical visionaries who used drugs you're left with, who, Chet Atkins?

 

(Then again, I don't know the first thing about Chet's private life; he could have been loaded on CIA acid and Cuban rum the whole time for all I know.)

[Tedly Nightshade]

Absolutely, the dose is crucial- the intention with which the dose is taken is crucial as well.

 

Myshell's points are EXTREMELY relevant! Even sugar is very much a drug, chocolate certainly (and I hate to ruin my chocolate high with too much sugar), all these things affect us in similar ways. Any unrefined plant resin is worlds more benign than the CIA/Eli Lilly pharmaceuticals pushed so heavily on our children...

[Angelo Clematide]

Originally posted by theblue1:

Well, gee, if you throw out the virtuosi and musical visionaries who used drugs you're left with, who, Chet Atkins?

don't be fixed on popular music like Rock or Jazz.

 

Think also of Composers like Stravinsky, J. S. Bach, Mozart, Deodat de Severac, Charles Koechlin, Toru Takemitsu, Samuel Barber...

or

performers as Ravi Shankar, Ahmed Jan Tirekwa, Julian Bream, Claudio Aarau...

or

just people who do any kind of work which are not direct related to music.

 

To me, it's not compelling that inspiration needs psychedelica. I couldn't write a orchestra score with LSD intus or produce a laserdisk in the studio. And it's stupid to belief you could be another Jimi Hendrix just because you take the same drugs.

 

Better is to fill in what ever you are interested in and let your spirit decide what ideas he produces out of that. Travel, read, smell, employ sight.

There is no outlet without input. And always check the dose.

[doc taz]

I may be a bit of a "late bloomer", but one thing I'm damned proud of is never to have messed around with them drugs. Except for caffeine, and some forms of alcohol.

 

Here's a little something from keyboardist Jens Johansson 's website that sums things up perfectly for me:

 

I love drugs! Drugs are good. Think of antibiotics and how many lives have been spared! You could argue that air is like a drug you get hooked on the active ingredient, Oxygen, from birth. Or water.

 

Oh, you mean illegal drugs? Well, the distinction is a bit artificial... why couldn't all chemical compounds just be legal? Why couldn't each individual decide what to do with his/her own body? Usually some determination is made (by Society) that a particular chemical has no medical value and that letting people use it freely would create "problems".

 

The cynic in me wants to think that Society doesn't like losing tax revenue.. but the non-cynic in me thinks of family and friends of drug addicts... and crack babies, and drug-related accidents.. let's face it, most people don't always know what's best for them, even if you and I do!

 

Anyway, I've tried some (not nearly all, I'm afraid), but I have to say that the only ones I've found that are worth the hassle are alcohol, and caffeine. And the superior delivery systems for these wonderful chemicals are beer, and coffee. And they're not even illegal.. oh dear, I must be getting old.

[coyote]

All good points, yet all beside the point (in a way). The original point was less about the good/bad, and more about the undeniable historic correlation between creativity and various means of consciousness-alteration including some currently illicit substances.

 

The point about "the size of the dose" is accurate. If oxygen made up 30% of our atmosphere we'd die, essentially "burning up" via our metabolism. Yet in current concentrations, oxygen is absolutely the most vital thing in our environment; without it we die in minutes.

 

Originally posted by Angelo Clematide:

Originally posted by theblue1:

Well, gee, if you throw out the virtuosi and musical visionaries who used drugs you're left with, who, Chet Atkins?

don't be fixed on popular music like Rock or Jazz.

 

Think also of Composers like Stravinsky, J. S. Bach, Mozart, Deodat de Severac, Charles Koechlin, Toru Takemitsu, Samuel Barber...

or

performers as Ravi Shankar, Ahmed Jan Tirekwa, Julian Bream, Claudio Aarau...

or

just people who do any kind of work which are not direct related to music.

 

To me, it's not compelling that inspiration needs psychedelica. I couldn't write a orchestra score with LSD intus or produce a laserdisk in the studio. And it's stupid to beliefe you could be another Jimi Hendrix just because you take the same drugs.

 

Better is to fill in what ever you are interested in and let your spirit decide what ideas he produces out of that. There is no outlet without input.

[Myshell]

Originally posted by Dr. Taz:

[QB]I may be a bit of a "late bloomer", but one thing I'm damned proud of is never to have messed around with them drugs. Except for caffeine, and some forms of alcohol.

You mean alcohol...

 

http://bbsnews.net/images/Deaths.jpg

 

Long-term heavy drinking damages the liver, nervous system, heart, and brain . It also causes high blood pressure, stomach problems, medication interactions, sexual problems, osteoporosis, and cancer. Alcohol abuse can also lead to violence, accidents, social isolation, and difficulties at work and home.

 

Symptoms of an alcohol problem include personality changes, blackouts, drinking more and more for the same "high," and denial of the problem. A person with an alcohol problem may gulp or sneak drinks, drink alone or early in the morning, and suffer from the shakes. He or she may also have family, school, or work problems or get in trouble with the law because of drinking.

 

The use of alcohol with medications or illegal drugs may increase the intoxicating effects each has on the body.

 

Alcohol abuse patterns vary. Some people get drunk every day; others drink large amounts of alcohol at specific times, such as on the weekend. It is common for someone with an alcohol or drug problem to call in sick for work on Monday or Friday. He or she may complain of having a virus or the flu. Others may be sober for long periods and then go on a drinking binge that lasts for weeks or months.

 

Someone with alcohol dependency may suffer serious withdrawal symptoms, such as trembling, delusions, hallucinations, and sweating, if he or she stops drinking suddenly ("cold turkey"). Once alcohol dependency develops, it becomes very difficult to stop drinking without outside help. Medical detoxification may be needed.

Anyone remember Bob Newhart's stand-up routine with the phone...especially the "tobacco" one? Think about alcohol in those terms:

 

"So...you drink this fluid. It makes you dizzy...you could vomit if you ingest too much...you could blackout...or even die! Sounds like fun."

 

I'll get back to you on caffeine.

 

Myshell

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

This is gonna sound weird to some of you... but I've gotten to the point that I don't even enjoy being drunk. Really. I'm not talking about hangovers, drunk driving or long-term health effects. I really don't like the buzz anymore.

 

I'll have a few beers or cocktails in a social situation, but I can count on one hand the number of times I've drank in order to get drunk in the last 7-8 years or so (whereas in my youth, I would only drink to get drunk).

 

I used to like it. Again, perhaps my brain changed at some point.

 

- Jeff

[coyote]

It's no surprise. It's your body telling you "I've had that enough"; now you moderate. It's called maturity lol....

 

I don't go for chemically-induced consciousness-alteration anymore either. I've found I can get there more easily nowadays by consciously setting a mental framework than by ingesting substances.

Originally posted by Jeff Da Weasel:

This is gonna sound weird to some of you... but I've gotten to the point that I don't even enjoy being drunk. Really. I'm not talking about hangovers, drunk driving or long-term health effects. I really don't like the buzz anymore.

 

I'll have a few beers or cocktails in a social situation, but I can count on one hand the number of times I've drank in order to get drunk in the last 7-8 years or so (whereas in my youth, I would only drink to get drunk).

 

I used to like it. Again, perhaps my brain changed at some point.

 

- Jeff

[theblue1]

Originally posted by Angelo Clematide:

Originally posted by theblue1:

Well, gee, if you throw out the virtuosi and musical visionaries who used drugs you're left with, who, Chet Atkins?

don't be fixed on popular music like Rock or Jazz.

 

Think also of Composers like Stravinsky, J. S. Bach, Mozart, Deodat de Severac, Charles Koechlin, Toru Takemitsu, Samuel Barber...

or

performers as Ravi Shankar, Ahmed Jan Tirekwa, Julian Bream, Claudio Aarau...

or

just people who do any kind of work which are not direct related to music.

 

To me, it's not compelling that inspiration needs psychedelica. I couldn't write a orchestra score with LSD intus or produce a laserdisk in the studio. And it's stupid to belief you could be another Jimi Hendrix just because you take the same drugs.

 

Better is to fill in what ever you are interested in and let your spirit decide what ideas he produces out of that. Travel, read, smell, employ sight.

There is no outlet without input. And always check the dose.

Of course not. If it was the drug doing the composing, we'd hear arias from the gutters and alleys.

 

That said, I think you'll find few artists through history who have not from time to time indulged one psychotropic or another, from heroin to alcohol to caffeine to sugar and everything in beween.

 

(And, since I'm trying to [at least] ease down my once-6 pack-plus of Coca Cola a day, this is really on my mind. Last night, with just one Cherry Coke in the fridge due to a shopping mistake, I was really feeling the jones. Creepy. Stopping my 12 beer a day habit ten years ago was almost easier in some ways.)

 

I think you mentioned Stravinski. I'm not sure but didn't he used to party hard with Bela Bartok? Or is that my drug-addled memory playing a fugue of a different sort...?

 

[Myshell]

Once again...everyone is clumping "illegal" drugs into one category. That is as asinine as viewing alcohol, tobacco, aspirin, cough syrup, anti-biotics, anti-depressants and coffee as the same...since they are 'legal'.

 

To deny that drugs have the potential to enhance brain activity (i.e. creativity) can be compared to saying 'steroids' don't enhance athletic performance...oh yeah...Doctors tried that one in the 80's.

 

And I agree...amounts do matter. Tylenol can be quite beneficial for pain relief and fever reduction...but Tylenol abuse is also the leading cause of acute liver failure in United States.

 

Myshell

[theblue1]

MyShell brings up an important -- and often neglected point -- some over the counter drugs are far more dangerous than some very illegal ones:

 

Five times the recommended dose of acetaminophen would "unequivocally produce a life-threatening injury in anybody," according to Eugene Schiff, director of the Center for Liver Diseases at the University of Miami School of Medicine.

That's why acetaminophen (the generic form of Tylenol and other similar products) and ibuprophen should not be used as hangover remedies -- although that is one of their most common uses. The liver is already heavily impacted by alcohol. If you then fill it full of these highly toxic but legal and heavily advertised pallatives, you're asking for liver damage or even failure.

 

"They couldn't sell it over the counter if it wasn't harmless" is a very dangerous -- and manifestly false -- assumption.

[Ouizel]

Ow! My liver!

[Myshell]

Originally posted by Dr. Taz:

The cynic in me wants to think that Society doesn't like losing tax revenue.. but the non-cynic in me thinks of family and friends of drug addicts... and crack babies, and drug-related accidents.. let's face it, most people don't always know what's best for them, even if you and I do!

Now here's a prototypical response. We're suppose to discuss drugs, music and creativity. So instead of talking about LSD, psilocybin or other ethnogens we bring up "crack babies". Nice.

 

LSD, psilocybin...no known deaths from toxicity. Hmmm...

yeah...let's categorize that with crack!

 

Myshell

[Ouizel]

Let's not forget Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannibinol, that doesn't even have an LD-50. (LD-50 is the dosage which kills 50 percent)

 

THC is less toxic than water.

[Angelo Clematide]

Originally posted by Myshell:

I'll get back to you on caffeine.

Is there someting like a natural death?

 

All this death by cause graphs calculate with diseases, accidents or abuse of something.

It seems that no one dies of age.

[g.]

Well, as I said in maybe post #2, it really doesn't matter what the relative truths are - the drugs are still illegal and the war is still on. I doubt preaching to the converted or pointing to the injustice of it all here will mean diddly to anybody - won't convince anyone of anything they weren't already convinced of, won't make any difference to power lobbyists.

 

blah blah blah.

[Angelo Clematide]

posted by theblue1:

I think you mentioned Stravinski. I'm not sure but didn't he used to party hard with Bela Bartok? Or is that my drug-addled memory playing a fugue of a different sort...?

 

- Stravinsky was a hell of partyman and his music is excellent. At his time (1900) Opium was very fashionable.

 

-

 

posted by Myshell:

To deny that drugs have the potential to enhance brain activity (i.e. creativity) can be compared to saying 'steroids' don't enhance athletic performance

 

- Some of the material has a positive effect, others are not that good in that sense. I cannot find prove that brain activity stands for better ideas, nor do i expect condition for better realization in music. The brain is not a muscle. But playing music is also a physical effort. On the physical side, psychedelic drugs where not helpful in my case.

 

-

 

posted by Myshell:

We're suppose to discuss drugs, music and creativity...

 

- Opium, LSD and Psilocybian Mushrooms etc.. In my opinion, my homoeopathic and rough history with drugs has nothing to do how i compose or perform music. I would not perform with a large dose inside, in fact I havent done that since 1972.

 

-

 

posted by Myshell:

And I agree...amounts do matter.

 

- The dose is most importand thing with all substances. I understand, the ultimate dose is a small dose or a micro dose, in terms of the physical material.

Each and every substance has a variable amount of energy within, when subjected to the process of potentisation (i.e. in the microgram range or less). This is nano-technology with drugs. On the contrary a dose of 30 lb of carrots can be deadly.

 

I don't drink Alcohol

[Myshell]

Originally posted by Angelo Clematide:

posted by Myshell:

To deny that drugs have the potential to enhance brain activity (i.e. creativity) can be compared to saying 'steroids' don't enhance athletic performance

 

- Some of the material has a positive effect, others are not that good in that sense. I cannot find prove that brain activity stands for better ideas, nor do i expect condition for better realization in music. The brain is not a muscle. But playing music is also a physical effort. On the physical side, psychedelic drugs where not helpful in my case.

 

-

 

posted by Myshell:

We're suppose to discuss drugs, music and creativity...

 

- Opium, LSD and Psilocybian Mushrooms etc.. In my opinion, my homoeopathic and rough history with drugs has nothing to do how i compose or perform music. I would not perform with a large dose inside, in fact I havent done that since 1972.

Well...I would question calling opium (a highly addictive drug) a 'psychedelic' but at least you are acknowledging differences in 'illegal' drugs. I do not find it suprising that you found no benefits from ethnogens since any form of shamanic principles have been basically pounded out of Western culture.

 

And apparently...the Beatles never used psychedelics to perform or record in the studio (except once...when John Lennon accidently took acid). I don't think psychedelics are needed while writing or performing. They can be taken as a catalyst for 'paradigm' shifts. To help view our world..."outside the box". Which in turn can enhance your life and music writing abilities. This is a rare achievement in a society where these drugs are taken for 'fun' or cheap thrills...

 

With dedicated disclipline you can also achieve this with meditation. Which I have been really working on lately.

 

on the no drinking!

 

Myshell

[Tedly Nightshade]

I was done drinking by the time I left high school. If we couldn't get acid, we'd drink, and it was a poor substitute indeed. One time I decided to take all the drugs I did on one day- dropped some acid, made some mushroom tea, ate some mescaline, smoked some reefer and some opium, and took a nip of a little flask of JD- blech! I quit drinking on the spot. I wasn't much for opium either- killed the visuals.

 

But in recent years I have taken up drinking, and there are places in music that I have a new relationship too- considering I belt the blues and play a lot of ragtime, and play the drums, a little nip of fine scotch with a bit of habanero in it really opens something up and lets some spirits fly on through that wouldn't be manifest otherwise. So much of making great music, in performance every bit as much as in writing, is about letting the disembodied spirits take over, and these spirits are most attracted to those who are not quite in their right mind, in my experience. Hence sometimes I am a pretty good host...

 

"Open up the doors in the center of your chest and let the spirits fly in and out!"

 

Sufi poetry- who knows what they're up to, other than spinning around and around?

[Angelo Clematide]

Originally posted by Tedly Nightshade:

"Open up the doors in the center of your chest and let the spirits fly in and out!"

Sufi poetry

END OF THE WORLD

Nasreddin said to his friends:

"Bury me feet over, when I die."

They asked the reason for this and he explained:

"They told me that at the end of the world everything will turn over and if you bury me so, I can easily stand up at that time."

 

Sufi humor