P525 vs 515

[ElmerJFudd]

 

anyone played the 525? Improvements? Things not as good as? 

[Dave Ferris]

Fwiw, I posted on this recently.

 

 

[CHarrell]

On 8/22/2024 at 10:59 AM, Dave Ferris said:

Fwiw, I posted on this recently.

 

 

 

No 525 in my area that I know of, but I played its console equivalent a few weeks ago to test out the Grandtouch-S and see what the score was...I gotta say, I felt similarly to you, Dave. At the risk of sounding dramatic, it was probably the most disappointing key action I've played on because my expectations were high as an ever intensifying Yamaha piano fanboy. 

 

I compared it to a C7x a couple feet away for perspective: in terms of raw touch weight, I can see where the marketing hype comes in, because they completely nailed that aspect. But what the GTS action lacked, and this is what killed it for me, was a sense of firmness. Not saying the keys are shoddily made, but it felt like I was pressing on crumpled paper the entire time. While I sympathize and somewhat agree with complaints about the NWX action being too heavy and lacking some expressiveness, it has a substantial, firm feeling that subjectively gives me a much more confident and ultimately enjoyable playing experience. 

[Dave Ferris]

Yeah I've never played that console model. I can never keep track of the branding in that line but I did play one a few years back, must've been close to the top of the line because it was 7K. That seemed pretty good.

 

Ok so the action is now called the "Grandtouch-S". Again along with action, I found the tone highly lacking compared to mine, especially through quality headphones like my Senn HD650s. Noticeably a thinner and less rich tone. In that video that Elmer posted, you can't discern the tonal difference that well with a smartphone camera mic of the internal speakers. They both sound pretty clangy in that respect.

 

Also again, looking on Reverb, there are still quite a few 515s still out there, new in a box, except I just don't have room to store it.

 

Regarding "the NWX action being too heavy and lacking some expressiveness",  with these reviews we are at the mercy of players who might not have had proper pianistic training, or have a solid grounded piano technique to begin with. In that case, of course the action will feel heavy. I found it pretty expressive for a $1500 DP, not like my AG of course (at close to ten times the cost, ridiculously insane btw) but it wasn't getting in my way, like say a Nord does.

 

 

[Mills Dude]

46 minutes ago, Dave Ferris said:

Yeah I've never played that console model. I can never keep track of the branding in that line but I did play one a few years back, must've been close to the top of the line because it was 7K. That seemed pretty good.

 

Thanks Dave, that was beautiful.  As much as I've eschewed acoustics for digitals you're playing really exposes the flaws in the tone of digitals.  My hack hands can't make a good acoustic sing like yours so for me its sometimes hard to feel the inferiority of the digital.  Listening to your clip all I could think of was how much better that would sound on a well maintained C7 or Steinway B.  It would be interesting to see and hear you play that on the Avant Grand.

[CHarrell]

3 hours ago, Dave Ferris said:

Yeah I've never played that console model. I can never keep track of the branding in that line but I did play one a few years back, must've been close to the top of the line because it was 7K. That seemed pretty good.

 

Ok so the action is now called the "Grandtouch-S". Again along with action, I found the tone highly lacking compared to mine, especially through quality headphones like my Senn HD650s. Noticeably a thinner and less rich tone. In that video that Elmer posted, you can't discern the tonal difference that well with a smartphone camera mic of the internal speakers. They both sound pretty clangy in that respect.

 

Also again, looking on Reverb, there are still quite a few 515s still out there, new in a box, except I just don't have room to store it.

 

Regarding "the NWX action being too heavy and lacking some expressiveness",  with these reviews we are at the mercy of players who might not have had proper pianistic training, or have a solid grounded piano technique to begin with. In that case, of course the action will feel heavy. I found it pretty expressive for a $1500 DP, not like my AG of course (at close to ten times the cost, ridiculously insane btw) but it wasn't getting in my way, like say a Nord does.

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing, Dave! Yeah I don't want to comment too much on the sound because I don't know how different the console version is in that realm, either with speakers or the dinky headphones the store rep gave me. 

 

Where I can understand complaints about the NWX's lack of expressiveness is for softer dynamics: every NW action I've played has a hard time consistently going under around 30. However, as the Dude opinionates, some of that might be the way the velocity layers in the sampling interact with the action. Overall I love the NW though, and when I reflect on my time with multiple keyboards, that keybed, whether in the 515, CP4 and 88, is one of the most inspiring I've found. I just want to create when I play them!

[CrossRhodes]

5 hours ago, Dave Ferris said:

Yeah I've never played that console model. I can never keep track of the branding in that line but I did play one a few years back, must've been close to the top of the line because it was 7K. That seemed pretty good.

 

Ok so the action is now called the "Grandtouch-S". Again along with action, I found the tone highly lacking compared to mine, especially through quality headphones like my Senn HD650s. Noticeably a thinner and less rich tone. In that video that Elmer posted, you can't discern the tonal difference that well with a smartphone camera mic of the internal speakers. They both sound pretty clangy in that respect.

 

Also again, looking on Reverb, there are still quite a few 515s still out there, new in a box, except I just don't have room to store it.

 

Regarding "the NWX action being too heavy and lacking some expressiveness",  with these reviews we are at the mercy of players who might not have had proper pianistic training, or have a solid grounded piano technique to begin with. In that case, of course the action will feel heavy. I found it pretty expressive for a $1500 DP, not like my AG of course (at close to ten times the cost, ridiculously insane btw) but it wasn't getting in my way, like say a Nord does.

 

 

Very much enjoyed that Dave.

[pawelsz]

I find headphone outs on current Yamahas to be quite weak. I have much better playing experience listening to P515 from line outs into PC4-7 input, and then from its headphone out. P515 headphone output is kind of little lo-fi, low-pass filtered and less dynamic compared to it's line outs. I read on pianoworld that they made P525 headphone output even weaker than P515, but I haven't played one. Same goes for CK61. CK61 was quiet on both line outs and headphone out by default 0dB gain setting but there is a possibility for adjusting it. And also sound from line outs is better. I don't have a mixer but the Kurzweil is probably the clearest sounding input to output from all my boards I had. Very low background noise level, nearly unhearable, and good dynamics. 

 

This also can affect your impressions. 

 

And I use AKG K271 MkIi with 55 Ohms impedance. Not the lowest, but not high. Seems like current Yamahas are being designed for something 32 Ohm level. 

[CHarrell]

8 hours ago, pawelsz said:

I find headphone outs on current Yamahas to be quite weak. I have much better playing experience listening to P515 from line outs into PC4-7 input, and then from its headphone out. P515 headphone output is kind of little lo-fi, low-pass filtered and less dynamic compared to it's line outs. I read on pianoworld that they made P525 headphone output even weaker than P515, but I haven't played one. Same goes for CK61. CK61 was quiet on both line outs and headphone out by default 0dB gain setting but there is a possibility for adjusting it. And also sound from line outs is better. I don't have a mixer but the Kurzweil is probably the clearest sounding input to output from all my boards I had. Very low background noise level, nearly unhearable, and good dynamics. 

 

This also can affect your impressions. 

 

And I use AKG K271 MkIi with 55 Ohms impedance. Not the lowest, but not high. Seems like current Yamahas are being designed for something 32 Ohm level. 

 

I've definitely noticed this. It's something I struggled with with the CP88 when I had it...the CK and YC thankfully have the output gain setting.

[Dave Ferris]

17 hours ago, Mills Dude said:

 It would be interesting to see and hear you play that on the Avant Grand.

 

Thanks for the nice comments guys, greatly appreciated!

 

I haven't done any line recordings yet on the AG since I got my Crane Song Interstellar A/D piece, but here's the iPhone 14 mics capturing a couple choruses blowing on "You stepped out of a dream".

 

There's no comparison to any digital stage piano but there shouldn't be considering I paid 14.4K for it. But I hear the headphone sound of the N3X as not very good at all. Very enclosed sounding, even with the HD650s being "open" cans. P515 and CP88 sound much better with phones. AG is all about the speaker experience and action.

 

 

[CHarrell]

5 minutes ago, Dave Ferris said:

 

Thanks for the nice comments guys, greatly appreciated!

 

I haven't done any line recordings yet on the AG since I got my Crane Song Interstellar A/D piece, but here's the iPhone 14 mics capturing a couple choruses blowing on "You stepped out of a dream".

 

There's no comparison to any digital stage piano but there shouldn't be considering I paid 14.4K for it. But I hear the headphone sound of the N3X as not very good at all. Very enclosed sounding, even with the HD650s being "open" cans. P515 and CP88 sound much better with phones. AG is all about the speaker experience and action.

 

 

 

Okay that little phrase at 1:00 is too slick 😂

[Justin Havu]

I've played many an acoustic piano over the years, and for the brief moment I tried a P515, the action felt WAY heavier than any acoustic I've ever played.  When the time came this past year to get a slab DP for gigging, the 525 was immediately out, too.  Since having carpal tunnel issues in 2018, my hands have not been the same, and there are very few weighted/hammer action keybeds my hands can tolerate.  The three that come to mind are my old RD-1000 (RIP), the GEX in the Montage M8x, and in a distant 3rd, the GHS action in my newly-acquired CK88.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Justin Havu said:

I've played many an acoustic piano over the years, and for the brief moment I tried a P515, the action felt WAY heavier than any acoustic I've ever played.  When the time came this past year to get a slab DP for gigging, the 525 was immediately out, too.  Since having carpal tunnel issues in 2018, my hands have not been the same, and there are very few weighted/hammer action keybeds my hands can tolerate.  The three that come to mind are my old RD-1000 (RIP), the GEX in the Montage M8x, and in a distant 3rd, the GHS action in my newly-acquired CK88.

Minor changes in weight and resistance are noticeable to us, when we say way heavier, it’s relative.   But!  With an issue like carpal tunnel if you find an action that you can play regularly without it acting up, that is more important than anything, for sure!