Another Take on "What's Wrong with Music These Days"

[Anderton]

You know most of the first half, but stick with it...the second half is pretty much on the money IMHO.

 

 

[Notes_Norton]

Interesting video.

I don't think the instrumentation is the blame. Queen, Moody Blues, Zeppelin, and others made a lot of good music mostly guitar, bass, and drums piano or organ.

 

My generation also had its share of one chord songs, we've always borrowed and adapted melodies and chord progressions of the past.

We like the familiar. Berry Gordy gave us the same advice, rewrite what's topping the charts. Don't get too creative. So the music evolves rather than switches. Elvis Presly era wasn't far from Louis Jordan, the Beach Boys weren't that far from Doo-Wop.

 

He talks about lyrics, at the same time as Boy Dylan and Joni Mitchel, we had Silver Convention, “Get up and boogie, that's right". Seven words over and over again of a simple harmonic structure and repetitive background figure.

He talks about Max Martin, writing so many songs. But what about Carole King and Jerry Goffin, Leiber and Stoller, Mann and Weill. OK, he made some good points, too, and I don't want to go on criticizing his opinion, which he is entitled so, so I'll give you my take.

 

---

 

The music of my generation was worse than my parents. My parents had Duke Ellington, Cole Porter, Artie Shaw, Benny Goodman, and so on. Bigger bands playing music with more complex chord structures and interesting interplay between brass, woodwind, piano and rhythm sections. And my parents thought all our music sounded the same.

It regressed to mostly 3 or 4 chords with Chuck Berry, Elvis Presley, but through the years gradually got more complex with The Beach Boys, The Beatles, The Moody Blues, Vanilla Fudge, Yes, and others. 

But that ended too until today we have one or two chord, two measure repetitions with people rapping over the top. Sure, rap is an art form in itself, but it is certainly less musical than what came before. Of course, there is also music being played. But it seems the pendulum has swung to the simple side.

Another factor: When MTV came along, the video became more important than the music. And that went on to stage production. No longer can a band simply play music, but we need costumes, choreography, props, and so on. The Eras tour wouldn't be the same if Taylor just played her songs with only the backing musicians on stage. 

The pretty people in sensuous costumes, dancing and posing in elaborate stage sets, have become a significant part of the product. Four to eight musicians on stage with their instruments in their hands while not dancing simply wouldn't make it.

My own opinion is that the big labels bought up all the indies, and instead of innovation and competition, it was feed them more of what works, and since we are corporate, how do we increase the price of the stocks? One way is less investment in the production.

 

Mimetic theory: “Man is the creature who does not know what to desire, and he turns to others in order to make up his mind. We desire what others desire because we imitate their desires.” 

 

The people will consume whatever the media feeds them. This celebrity likes it, those influencers are raving about it, everybody is listing to this, it's the latest thing, and so on. 

And don't forget, before my parent's music we had Beethoven, Dvorak, and Tchaikovsky. Perhaps the most complex, yet still melodic, the “west” has ever produced. The downward trend has been going on for over a century.

 

But I manage to find both good and bad music in most eras and genres. And I like both complex and simple music, too. Tchaikovsky's 6th symphony, “Pathétique”, is like a gourmet dinner, and Muddy Waters' “You Can't Lose What You Never Had” is like glazed donuts. 

 

So how I define good or bad is not their musical content, instead: Good=Songs I like, and Bad=Songs for someone else's ears.

 

There is more than one kind of good.

 

So is music really getting worse? Depends on what you are listening to.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

 

[GovernorSilver]

He's struggling to keep a straight face as he gives his doomsday speech at the end.  Like he's going to bust out laughing any moment.   

 

I have acquaintances who complain about today's music.  I brushed it off as outrage porn and simple love of complaining for its own sake, then I realized the loudest complainers are stuck working in environments such as retail shops, grocery stores, etc. where they're forced to listen to that music.  This is one of the points he makes in the 2nd half.  

 

I am fortunate to have a career in which I can choose what music to listen to any time I want.  I am not exposed to the latest pop music every day because I don't have to work a department store or other place where pop music is constantly being piped through the speakers.

 

I'm pretty good at ignoring the music I don't like when I do have to do my grocery run or go shopping at the neighborhood Target.  I think the limited exposure is the key - again, not being stuck having it piped to my ears 4-8 hours a day, every day.  I can totally see that kind of heavy exposure leading to emotional breakdowns like this - granted this is a parody 

 

 

I have all the gear I need to make the music I want to hear.  I don't have to depend on other people to make the music I want to hear.

 

 

 

 

[Philbo King]

Working in retail...

Why I still can't tolerate Christmas music for more than 20 seconds, 50 years later.

My own corrolary to the law of supply and demand: Constant music gives rise to an adaptation where one simply learns to ignore it, cheapening both the music and the product being sold.  It is no longer special, and becomes just more junk stimulus to ignore...

[GovernorSilver]

Same.  If I was hired to work retail but had to listen to Christmas tunes 4-8 hours a day I'd probably quit before the next shift.  Especially if that playlist included "Last Christmas"

[AROIOS]

5 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

...Mimetic theory: “Man is the creature who does not know what to desire, and he turns to others in order to make up his mind. We desire what others desire because we imitate their desires.” 

 

The people will consume whatever the media feeds them. This celebrity likes it, those influencers are raving about it, everybody is listing to this, it's the latest thing, and so on...

You nailed it, Bob.

[AROIOS]

4 hours ago, GovernorSilver said:

...

Paul Rudd's character had no idea how lucky he was. Wanting to shoot himself for "Minute by Minute" on repeat? Try "Shake It Off". 😆

[RABid]

The first song that I remember singing ...

 

She loves you yea yea yea

She loves you yea yea yea

She loves you yea yea yea

Yeaaaaaaaaa!

 

And the writers are deemed genius. 😁

 

Every generation thinks the music of their generation is the worst. I'm thinking that at a young age people concentrate on what mainstream pushes towards them. As they get over they find more options. It is not all bad. Never has been. Never will be. For every 1000 kids that think they are making music by putting together loops they purchased in a pack, there is one kid that gets it. You just have to find that kid.

[GovernorSilver]

42 minutes ago, AROIOS said:

Paul Rudd's character had no idea how lucky he was. Wanting to shoot himself for "Minute by Minute" on repeat? Try "Shake It Off". 😆

 

Oh we could spend days and days going back and forth with "Oh yeah how bout song X", "oh yeah how about song Y",  but I'm sure that's not what Craig wants 😀

 

I had to go for a grocery run today during my lunch break.  I somehow managed to buy everything I needed during the duration of one pop song.  By the time I got in my car, I still remembered one line of the lyrics.  By the time I finished eating my lunch, I forgot that line too.  It was something along the lines of "I want you to have".   I do remember thinking "boilerplate lyrics, probably based on a reusable template".   I don't remember connecting with the vocals in an emotional way either.  Sure, I'm used to listening to iconic R&B in which the vocals better testify or the track fails, but I've also heard "cool vibe" type vocals that I connected with in a meaningful way.  This song did not have that either.

 

The drum and bass parts sounded familiar - not a hip hop thing at all but I suspect it's from a loop library - maybe built into Garageband or one of the gazillion loops that come with a typical DAW these days?    Who ever produced this song was not going for a hard hitting high energy vibe so I didn't notice any aggressive use of compression.

 

I didn't leave the grocery store with a great compulsion to look up the song.  Perhaps other grocery customers who hear this song on the radio have it on their Spotify list?  I don't even know if this song is on the radio anyway.

[AROIOS]

27 minutes ago, GovernorSilver said:

...I didn't leave the grocery store with a great compulsion to look up the song.  Perhaps other grocery customers who hear this song on the radio have it on their Spotify list?  I don't even know if this song is on the radio anyway...

The quality of those Muzak playlists is all over the place. We have the typical teenage Pop radio garbage in the gym I go to, 80's Hits in grocery store #1, Jazzy Easy Listening in grocery store #2, and idiotic Pop instrumentals in store #3. And the Macy's I used to shop at played some of the best WestCoast AOR. Needless to say, I quit the gym and minimize my stay at store #3.

Speaking of looking up a song, some of my favorite tunes were discovered through those Muzak playlists. This one hooked me instantly years ago in a Macy's, it's David Foster at his best:
 

 

[GovernorSilver]

The inclusion of Dusty's songs on any retail/grocery/etc store's playlist would be an instant upgrade.

 

I listen to Doobies/Michael McDonald songs several times a day btw.  Some of my favorite Doobie songs are songs I never heard before 2024 actually, because I never bothered to listen to their deep cuts until Beato's interview with McDonald got published.  To me those deep cuts feel like newly discovered pop songs... well, except the odd ones that clearly weren't designed for promotion as pop tunes like "Living On The Fault Line" and "I Cheat The Hangman"

 

But if the video in Craig's OP is correct on certain points - I already complained about certain others - big corporations have conspired to take over Muzak or whatever and ensure the 2024 pop songs they want to promote get played instead in such places.

[stoken6]

1 hour ago, RABid said:

She loves you yea yea yea

She loves you yea yea yea

She loves you yea yea yea

Yeaaaaaaaaa!

 

And the writers are deemed genius

Not to be contrarian, but most of the folks who label the Beatles "genius" point to She Loves You (and Please Please Me, and I Wanna Hold Your Hand) as the start of an ascent that reaches its peak with A Day In The Life, Come Together, Something etc.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

 

[Anderton]

1 hour ago, GovernorSilver said:

But if the video in Craig's OP is correct on certain points - I already complained about certain others - big corporations have conspired to take over Muzak or whatever and ensure the 2024 pop songs they want to promote get played instead in such places.

 

I don't think the issue has that much to do with whether music of a certain era is "better" or "worse." There will always be people who want to create great art, and hacks. There's also the "eye of the beholder" factor. 

 

Zooming out, perhaps the issue is more about treating music not as an art form, but a product to be consumed. The bar for creating a product that can be consumed is lower than the bar for creating great art. With the devaluation and oversaturation of music, there's less incentive to create great art. So, it may not be that music is getting "worse." It just seems that way because it's increasingly difficult to find the gems due to oversaturation, and increasingly difficult to convince artists to make great art in a world where music has been devalued.

[GovernorSilver]

1 hour ago, Anderton said:

 

I don't think the issue has that much to do with whether music of a certain era is "better" or "worse." There will always be people who want to create great art, and hacks. There's also the "eye of the beholder" factor. 

 

 

I have nothing to offer on whether music of a certain era is "better" or "worse.

 

The main point of interest for me from that video is this - stated another way, the video helped me understand why certain acquaintances of mine complain repeatedly about recent pop music - unlike myself they are stuck in situations in which they are continuously exposed to unwanted media - I too would start going bananas if I were in that situation.

 

Quote

I realized the loudest complainers are stuck working in environments such as retail shops, grocery stores, etc. where they're forced to listen to that music.  This is one of the points he makes in the 2nd half.  

 

 

[Anderton]

3 hours ago, GovernorSilver said:

 

I have nothing to offer on whether music of a certain era is "better" or "worse.

 

Sorry, I used your quote just to set the stage for related comments about the devaluation of music. I didn't comment on your main point because I thought you said it well and it didn't need elaboration. But just to be clear: 

 

 

 

[Notes_Norton]

I am blessed to be able to make a living doing music and nothing but music. I've played in front of an audience since I was in middle school, and have no intention of quitting as long as I can do it.

 

Through the years, I've played classical, jazz, rock, disco, pop, country, salsa, reggae, swing, and more. I've played music from the 19th century, through the 21st. My listening interests are off the chart, Cabo Verde, Klezmer, Tuvan Throat Singing, Raga, and so on. In China I heard an erhu player play so beautifully that she brought tears to my eyes.

 

There is a lot of great music out there, and a lot that bores me. I love Dvorak and Tchaikovsky, and although I can analyze and see the genius in Bach and Mozart, their music bores me. For me, it's not what is good or bad, right or wrong, or complicated or simple. It's what I like or dislike. And to tell you the truth, I don't know what makes me like or dislike a piece of music. Why do I like Beethoven's 4th and 7th, the most, while I'm bored by the 9th? If it speaks to me, I like it, if it doesn't, it's for someone else. And although there is a lot of music from every genre that I don't care for, none of it has hurt me.

 

A lot of today's music from every generation is going to be forgotten, others will stand the test of time. As a performing musician, I try to choose to learn songs that will stand the test of time, so I can play them for years. If I'm going to invest the time to learn them, I hope I can play them for years to come.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

 

[David Emm]

12 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

 >>> Why do I like Beethoven's 4th and 7th, the most,

 

I took to the 7th in a huge way because it was used to open John Boorman's "Zardoz." I was one of those who DIDN'T walk out early on. Instead, I stayed through the end, grinning like a monkey. Wonderful, weird film. NOT a family musical. The pipe organ parts just added to my fascination with the instrument. 

 

Part of "what's wrong" is a lack of moments such as this, which come totally from left field.

 

 

[Notes_Norton]

My favorite Beethoven is an old LP/CD by George Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra. It has both 4 and 7 on it, and IMO Szell's interpretation is about as good as it gets. I have the CD, had the LP, but it got too scratched.

 

I like the first movement of Beethoven's #5, but the rest of it bores me, as does the entire #9. I don't question the genius, and they are both remarkable pieces of music, but for some reason, unknown to me, I always find my mind drifting instead of listening. Nothing reaches out and grabs me.

 

Music is like that to me. 

 

Back on topic. Every era of pop music has its genius and it's trash. And one person's trash is another person's genius.

 

Notes ♫

[ElmerJFudd]

Let's see... some other things come to mind.

• Groove and loop based songs with no harmonic change.  Or songs only going ABAB melodically but are the same chord progression throughout.  Little additional effort on form or willingness to go somewhere unexpected. 
• Songs built with corporate loop packages that everyone has - stock loops that come with your DAW or Native Instruments, etc. 
• Songs built from sounds and loops from previous songs (not conceptually but actually sampled - the same audio).  They say James Brown's Funky Drummer is the most often sampled beat loop of all time. 
• Songs built on the grid instead of tempo being an expressive element. 
• Parts of a song played on a grid and quantized to 16th note or made to swing with a % value or groove map. 
• Dynamics/volume no longer an expressive element - everything is equally loud (mentioned already in the video).  
• Commercial software plugins with presets.   This was already happening with presets on popular hardware synths.  But now has branched out to amp models, compressors, eqs, etc. as well.  It creates a sameness in timbre. 
• Drum sound replacement with packaged commercial libraries. 
• Favoring commercial sampled instruments like Spectrasonics.  NI, IK Multimedia, etc. instead of recording one's own instrument.  Or the part is programmed, played by a keyboard player, or triggered by a commercial midi loop. 

 

These things add to a sameness in the quality of the recording.  I often find it fun to guess at the year a song was recorded based on the overall sound of the product.  Regardless of sound quality, a good song should stand on its own.  If the lyric and melody are presented with a compelling vocal performance - making decisions about the arrangement and recording methods is like using crayons in a coloring book.  The picture is there, but there are a lot of choices to make and elbow grease yet to be applied.  If we use AI for that part as well, there is certainly more sameness to come.  

[Bill H.]

Sorry but I could't make it past the part where he blames Max Martin for today's pop music woes. Yeah this video is old. It says it was released six years ago, but judging from its pics of Justin Bieber as a teen and a youthful Miley Cyrus atop her iconic wrecking ball it plays much older. 

 

And when he asks how did we fall from Led Zeppelin to Lady Gaga... umm in 2024 I'll take Lady Gaga. 

 

One thing I've noticed since those days is a gradual return to traditional verse chorus bridge chorus structures replacing loops in pop. I kind of like this one - currently #1 on Billboard Hot 100. With the exception of the obligatory F bomb in the hook it's a bit of timeless synth pop fluff, with a nice little nod to "Genius Of Love" in the arrangement. Jack Antonoff  - a kind of current version of Max Martin - is responsible for the production. 

 

Of course the real reason it's so popular are the lyrics - as always. You and I may not connect with a woman pleading with her boyfriend to please behave himself in public, but apparently millions of people do. 

 

 

 

[Anderton]

6 hours ago, Bill H. said:

Sorry but I could't make it past the part where he blames Max Martin for today's pop music woes.

 

Well, I did mention sticking through it for the second half. That's where he gets more into music as something consumable. If it's older than six years, then it's more prescient than I thought. His point about music being awful is more about what's being foisted on us. The phenomenon is similar to movie studios backing off on "small" films, and betting big bucks on blockbusters that appeal to focus groups.  

 

I remember the days when one DJ could play one record on one radio station, and have it blow up. That may sound "so what" in today's world where things go viral so easily, but in a world where AM radio was the main conduit for music, that was a big deal. It also opened the doors to more variety, because music was more localized. 

 

Radio died when playlists were developed by Cumulus, and used nationwide. Sort of like how fast food choked out a lot of small mom and pop diners and such. That was my takeaway from the second half - that music has become more "fast foodified." The silver lining is that Cumulus's efforts ultimately failed, and they returned to more regional playlists. But by that time, AM had pretty much turned into newstalk and sportstalk anyway.

[Anderton]

Here's an interesting post in the radiodiscussions.com forum about standardized playlists:

 

"There were geographic differences in playlists because there were geographic differences in musical taste. The other thing is there were small record labels in certain geographic areas that didn't have national distribution. Buddy Holly started out on a small Texas record label getting played regionally. His songs started showing up in Billboard charts based on the regional airplay, and national record labels took an interest and signed him. That's also what happened to Elvis. One day he's making records in Memphis. A couple years later RCA comes in and signs him to a national record deal. He appears on Ed Sullivan, and becomes a national star. The major national record labels became more powerful during this time, and smaller local labels simply couldn't compete. So you have the intersection of radio and records. Radio playlists, and the record labels who want to influence them. For the big major labels such as Columbia, RCA, and MCA, there wasn't as much money in regional hits. You wanted to have your record get played on radio stations from Atlanta to San Francisco. The labels hired promotion people to make that happen. It started in the 40s, but became a science by the 70s. The record labels have as much to do with what you hear on the radio as the stations themselves. The labels set the agenda, they pick the singles, and they balance the artists on their roster with the needs of the radio stations."

[Anderton]

I thought of an analogous way to explain my take on what the video is saying.

 

Approximately 37% of Americans eat fast food every day. That doesn't exclude the existence of good restaurants, but they're a lot harder to find.

 

[KenElevenShadows]

That fast food stat is an alarming stat.

[Notes_Norton]

7 hours ago, Anderton said:

Radio died when playlists were developed by Cumulus, and used nationwide.

Definitely.

 

There was a time when DJs picked the records they would play. Of course, rock DJs would play the latest Elvis or Beatles song, depending on the era, but they were free to add whatever they wanted. A DJ in a major radio market could 'break' an unknown artist/song on an indie label.

When program managers started telling the DJs what to play, big money told the program managers what to tell the DJs, and the indies died a slow death. 

 

Top 40 music became more homogenized then. A lot of the creativity died, because from a big label, corporate viewpoint, repeating what was already a hit, was a sure-fire profit maker. Something radically different could be a hit, or a loss. Why take a chance when a hit can be pretty much guaranteed?

 

14 hours ago, Bill H. said:

Of course the real reason it's so popular are the lyrics - as alway

 

I guess I'm weird. I don't care about the lyrics. It's the musical content that strikes me first. If the music is boring, the best poetry in the universe won't save it for me. Also, some songs that I dearly love, I still don't know all, or even most of the lyrics.

 

Does the cord movement catch my ear, how about the melody, how are the rhythm section musicians interacting with each other, is there a countermelody and if so how dies it complement or contrast the melody, how about the groove, and so on and so on.

 

This is probably why rap doesn't interest me. Oh, I know there is a lot of skill into making the poetry, but without interesting melody and harmony, it doesn't speak to me. The same goes for the 'beat poetry' where the beatniks rapped over jazz music, or the original rap music, and the first rap music I've ever heard from 1947. (Although the trumpet solo is cool). I think it was called talking blues style.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this was the original rap music genre.
 

 

 

7 hours ago, Anderton said:

Approximately 37% of Americans eat fast food every day.

For me, life is too short to eat mediocre food. 

The last time I ate fast food was in the early 1980s. I was working on a project with a group of guys, it was getting late, and someone went out for burgers. I can't remember the time before that, but I ordered 2 plain cheeseburgers. They tasted like cardboard.

 

To each, their own, but I'd much rather spend a little more and get something that has flavor to it.

 

For about twice the price of a McD, I can get a 9oz, never frozen, hand pattied, freshly cooked, full-of-flavor burger, with the fresh toppings I want (including real cheese and bacon), plus a generous helping of fresh fries, slaw, and a drink. Twice as much? Well, there is more beef than 2 quarter pounders, so I guess it really isn't twice as much. And whether I want it rare, well done, or something in between, that's how it comes out.

 

I do have to wait for it, as it isn't pre-made and shoved in a microwave to reheat.  

* * * * * *

 

Back on topic. Back in the day, one of our competitors, ? and the Mysterians, who chose that name because they were Mexican Americans and thought being Hispanic would hurt their radio career, recorded “69 Tears”. A DJ in Flint, Michigan decided to invest in them for a share of the profits. I'm not sure of the deal, but it was rumored he would get half. He had it rerecorded as “96 Tears”, because of the sexual connotations of 69, and the censorship of the day. Then he played it again and again and again with much enthusiasm. He got other Michigan DJs to do the same.

 

Since according to Memetic Theory, “Man is the creature who does not know what to desire, and he turns to others in order to make up his mind. We desire what others desire because we imitate their desires” the fact that the DJs said all the hip people love this song, it broke nationally.

 

I heard that Rudy and the group didn't make anything from the record, but they profited by their resulting gigs, which they shared with the DJ/manger. They went on to limited success, but never had another “96 Tears”. BTW, that wasn't their best. We did a few gigs with them, and they played cover songs, fast, furious, and with tons of energy. Better live than in the controlled studio. 

 

Nice guys, decent musicians, and another one hit wonder.

 

* * * * * * 

 

So what's wrong with music today? Same old, same old. Neither the public nor the gatekeeper executives know how to listen to music, and don't care about what goes into the music. They just want desire they perceive their peers desire. Good ol'  Memetic Theory.

If all their friends think Fast Food is great, they will think Fast Food is great.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[Bill H.]

On 7/1/2024 at 6:33 AM, Notes_Norton said:

 guess I'm weird. I don't care about the lyrics. It's the musical content that strikes me first. If the music is boring, the best poetry in the universe won't save it for me. Also, some songs that I dearly love, I still don't know all, or even most of the lyrics.

 

I was really trying to explain why certain things are popular in today's music rather than what any or us think about it. 

 

I'll give you an example. When (as a DJ) I play Kendrick Lamar's Humble and the entire room - sometimes numbering in the hundreds - yells "My left stroke just went viral!" all on cue and at the same time - now that's a strong vocal hook. And a something that's totally baffling to anyone over 30, but that's probably the point. 

 

Same thing with Cardi B's Up and "I know that's right!" but at least I can somewhat understand that one. That's a slamming track BTW... more going on than just that vocal hook. 

 

Lyrics are super important in today's music. That absolutely doesn't have anything to do with being good. All it has to do is make the song connect with it's target audience. 

[ProfD]

On 7/1/2024 at 12:57 AM, Anderton said:

The labels hired promotion people to make that happen. It started in the 40s, but became a science by the 70s. The record labels have as much to do with what you hear on the radio as the stations themselves. The labels set the agenda, they pick the singles, and they balance the artists on their roster with the needs of the radio stations."

Excellent post. 

 

This explains the different between music as art and the business of music.

 

Understanding the difference in bold above should resolve any concerns about the state of music since the beginning of the recording industry.😎