Auditioning effects presets, like wine tasting?

[DeltaJockey]

I wonder if auditioning the countless number of reverb presets looking for the "right" effect is like wine tasting? After trawling through dozens and tweaking settings, I start to lose my reference and they all start sounding similar, and none of them are exactly what I want.

Is it like wine tasting where you need a wash of water and a break before trying the next one. In the end, I have to walk away for awhile and have a fresh start with rested ears.

 

What's the general consensus on the best way to get through this without developing preset fatigue? Or am I the only pair of ears to ever face this problem?

 

On a related issue, I had come to realize recently, that I was wasting so much money purchasing commercial effects plugins on the promise of more polished audio when, with a bit of effort, the default Logic plugins are actually better in many ways. Often they just need a bit more knob twiddling and user manual reading to come out as good as a commercial product costing hundreds of dollars. I've come to the conclusion, the deeper I dig into space designer for example, the more incredible its surround sound quality really is, and it's been sitting under my nose for years, and it's taken me this long to see the light😀👍

[J.F.N.]

Plug-ins have a tendency to become like Pokemons, "Gotta catch them all", and yes, I'm very sure Logic already provides pretty decent quality plug-ins for more or less anything needed to be done.

 

I'm using Studio One, and the plug-in toolbox provided with their subscription service is outstanding, yet still, even though I'm not a recording or mixing engineer, I have loads and loads of other third party plug-ins, which I am convinced that, in reality, I don't need...

 

 

[DeltaJockey]

I think the attraction of paid plugins, and I'm only talking about effects here not synths, are that they are gift wrapped in nice GUI's and often have much of the hard work done in the settings. So I'm not against paying for someone else's hard work if I think it will save me some effort and will give the result "straight out of the zip".

But as a result of this mindset, it's so easy to disregard the excellent quality already in one's collection just because they were bundled.

[David Emm]

I handle it by giving in to it as a creative exercise. If I decide to wander through presets for an hour and then stop for a while, it seems to reach a balanced middle ground. Writing small descriptions for each keeper-quality item gets old, even though they're necessary. A patch named "Space Goober Patter" doesn't really tell you much when you're working.

   

Its the same for effects and synths. There's always the temptation to gulp it down at a fast pace because its all so shiny. I've enjoyed it more since I got past pointless FOMO. It took a while for me to figure out that Logic came with a serious mass of sound massagers that didn't need much enhancement. I've picked 3rd party additions more effectively as a result. The longer you work/play, the more readily you develop a certain muscle memory that replaces endless review with those three tweaks that land things right in the pocket.

 

My advice: You know you, so the semi-ideal best set of tools you always need will gel for you sooner or later. After that, the main job is simply not burying everything in sprinkles. I do ❤️ sprinkles, *sigh*.        

[CEB]

From a pure keyboardist perspective:   
 

Verb should be felt but not heard. 

[GovernorSilver]

Once I settled on plate reverb as my favorite type, the endless scrolling through reverb presets pretty much came to an end.

 

I also like the Black Hole reverb algorithm on Eventide H9, but I'm susceptible to getting lost in endless tweaking on that one so I don't use it that often these days.

[AROIOS]

On 4/20/2024 at 11:28 PM, DeltaJockey said:

...What's the general consensus on the best way to get through this without developing preset fatigue?
...

Dissecting one preset thoroughly, will pay more dividends than casually browsing through a thousand.
 

Once we figure out what parameters contribute most to that preset, and how/why they shaped that sound the way they did, we can apply those techniques to programming hundreds of our own presets. It's a rewarding and empowering practice.

[DeltaJockey]

6 hours ago, CEB said:

From a pure keyboardist perspective:   
 

Verb should be felt but not heard. 

I agree, particularly in the context in which I'm using it. For me that is surround, and it's about closing the eyes and imagining you are in the real space you are emulating. The point is not to hear any reverb/reflections as a point source, but to create the sense of space in which the source sound is sitting.

[DeltaJockey]

6 hours ago, GovernorSilver said:

Once I settled on plate reverb as my favorite type, the endless scrolling through reverb presets pretty much came to an end.

 

I also like the Black Hole reverb algorithm on Eventide H9, but I'm susceptible to getting lost in endless tweaking on that one so I don't use it that often these days.

I traditionally favored plates for their high density open neutral sounding airyness, and was quite happy in a very short time of tweaking to get what I want. I have always liked the RC48 verb, for it's emulation of the Lexicon for this reason.

[DeltaJockey]

3 hours ago, AROIOS said:

Dissecting one preset thoroughly, will pay more dividends than casually browsing through a thousand.
 

Once we figure out what parameters contribute most to that preset, and how/why they shaped that sound the way they did, we can apply those techniques to programming hundreds of our own presets. It's a rewarding and empowering practice.

I guess my motivation for the endless scrolling initially, is to narrow down my favorites for further parameter tweaking, and eliminate the rest from the palate.

We are spoiled for choice, and at the same time "save as" is cheap, and leads to countless similar presets, with misleading and contrasting names.

[DeltaJockey]

All good points to note. I won't rabble on in too much detail but, the thing which has complicated my life with reverb more recently is spending more time in the Convolution space trying to emulate the real places the impulse responses have been recorded from.

When I use algorithmic reverbs, it's a lot easier to settle on one I like, as my ears just appreciate the pleasant feeling of a fictitious place.

But with conv reverb, It's a bit of rabbit hole, and akin to pursuing the perfect weighted action.

 

To quote a phrase I once read, of trying to convey an experience of a certain beautiful wild place in the real world....to be there is the only way.

[David Emm]

12 minutes ago, DeltaJockey said:

When I use algorithmic reverbs, it's a lot easier to settle on one I like, as my ears just appreciate the pleasant feeling of a fictitious place.

But with conv reverb, It's a bit of rabbit hole, and akin to pursuing the perfect weighted action.

 

I can sympathize with the distraction of imaginary perfection, but I'm sure I'm not the only one to put convolution on the master outs for the glorious globuance of it all. I have a loose baker's dozen of nice reverbs that fit my style(s). I use them carefully, lest things turn into mud. I'm glad I had my era of stacking early low-fi reverbs to mask their individual flaws. Now I know that a Mellotron generally needs its own bit of reverb to work best and how to balance that against the main one. Its a colorful form of juggling.

[J.F.N.]

21 hours ago, GovernorSilver said:

Once I settled on plate reverb as my favorite type, the endless scrolling through reverb presets pretty much came to an end.

 

I also like the Black Hole reverb algorithm on Eventide H9, but I'm susceptible to getting lost in endless tweaking on that one so I don't use it that often these days.

 

I got the Black Hole plugin, it's endless and easy to get lost in, and then bored in the end... also got a bunch of other reverb plugins, way too many, that I swooped up on promotions, but this one is by far my most used one:

 

https://www.eventideaudio.com/plug-ins/sp2016-reverb/

 

Amazing little gem imho!

 

(On promo fairly frequently...)

[GovernorSilver]

I used the Blackhole reverb the most when my primary job with the band was to make atmospheric sounds with heavily processed electric violin.

 

I actually use the reverb (plate of course)  in Line 6 HX Stomp/Helix Native more than the Eventide stuff these days.

 

Nothing wrong with Eventide.  It was just the result of replacing my pedalboard (Eventide H9, tuner pedal, overdrive pedal, etc.) with a single HX Stomp XL for playing with the band.  One of the reasons was Matt Bell's preset pack for Helix/HX Stomp owners who happen to play electric violin.  Much less weight to carry to rehearsals, shows, etc.  I'm not that picky about reverb as long as it's a decent sounding plate.

 

The more time I've put into music studies (rhythm, harmony, stealing melodic lines by ear, etc.) the less interest I've had in picking out the perfect reverb preset, or tone-chasing in general.  Probably just a coincidence.

[DeltaJockey]

On 4/23/2024 at 10:16 AM, David Emm said:

 

I can sympathize with the distraction of imaginary perfection, but I'm sure I'm not the only one to put convolution on the master outs for the glorious globuance of it all. I have a loose baker's dozen of nice reverbs that fit my style(s). I use them carefully, lest things turn into mud. I'm glad I had my era of stacking early low-fi reverbs to mask their individual flaws. Now I know that a Mellotron generally needs its own bit of reverb to work best and how to balance that against the main one. Its a colorful form of juggling.

Agree, as a user of Conv reverb to put my total arrangement in a common space, it usually sits on the master out, with various other subtle reverbs/effects on individual channel inserts.

Many vst's these days come with their own convolution reverbs, which generally sit ok by default with my mix, though there are a few which have to be removed to prevent the "mud" you speak of. I sometimes get frustrated when they are set by patch and there's no master disable though.

 

My biggest use of plate reverb is actually Mellotron.😁
Mellotron flute particularly sits nice and authentically distant with plate first and convolution hall second.

[DeltaJockey]

14 hours ago, J.F.N. said:

 

I got the Black Hole plugin, it's endless and easy to get lost in, and then bored in the end... also got a bunch of other reverb plugins, way too many, that I swooped up on promotions, but this one is by far my most used one:

 

https://www.eventideaudio.com/plug-ins/sp2016-reverb/

 

Amazing little gem imho!

 

(On promo fairly frequently...)

I'm wondering how similar Black Hole is to Raum? And maybe some presets of Zebrify?

[J.F.N.]

 

"Plugins get tricky because you start to hear with your eyes. Some of them have flashy interfaces - they make you think they’re doing more than they’re actually doing"

 

https://www.musicradar.com/news/st-vincent-interview

[D. Gauss]

I'm old school from tape machine, console and limited outboard era, so for me, i just have the same six pack of cheap beer.  My Reaper DAW template is set up with default aux sends to a short slapback delay, a long delay, a plate reverb, a room verb, and a chamber.  From there i just get on with business. If a client is looking for something weird or specific, then i might take a gander at what else is in the toolbox.

[DeltaJockey]

11 hours ago, J.F.N. said:

 

"Plugins get tricky because you start to hear with your eyes. Some of them have flashy interfaces - they make you think they’re doing more than they’re actually doing"

 

https://www.musicradar.com/news/st-vincent-interview

Yes, that's very much something I've come to realize. When it comes to reverbs, I have several convolution reverbs which I have paid for, for their surround support. One of them is EW Spaces2. It has a lovely photo of the actual hall/church/studio etc that the impulse response represents. Whereas Logic's Space Designer is a pretty basic programmers' interface.

I thought the EW sounded better initially, but after spending many more months on SD, have found I can get a better sound than from Spaces2. Now when I return to Spaces2, I can't get anything I'm that happy with. On a side note, I've stopped using Spaces because it only allows one activation, which stuffs up my projects if I want to load a studio project on my laptop. And I'm done with constantly transferring licences between desktop and laptop via the iLok manager. I don't have enough usb ports for an iLok drive on the laptop.

This goes for many paid plugins, it's too much hassle to transfer one licence all the time. That's another reason using Logics, (or other DAW's), bundled plugins gives so much more freedom to move.

[D. Gauss]

1 hour ago, DeltaJockey said:

 

I thought the EW sounded better initially, but after spending many more months on SD, have found I can get a better sound than from Spaces2. Now when I return to Spaces2, I can't get anything I'm that happy with. On a side note, I've stopped using Spaces because it only allows one activation, which stuffs up my projects if I want to load a studio project on my laptop. And I'm done with constantly transferring licences between desktop and laptop via the iLok manager. I don't have enough usb ports for an iLok drive on the laptop.

 

 

After I got the Valhalla verbs (Room, Plate, Vintage and delay), I never looked back.  They're on every single mix for over 10 years now.  https://valhalladsp.com/

 

[DeltaJockey]

49 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

 

After I got the Valhalla verbs (Room, Plate, Vintage and delay), I never looked back.  They're on every single mix for over 10 years now.  https://valhalladsp.com/

 

Yes Valhalla is a very good verb. I did try the demo way back. Thing is for me, it's an algorithmic reverb for artificial spaces, which I have mountains of. Also I am focused on surround reverbs which use true stereo/quad impulse responses, as I'm recreating real spaces. I've originally tried a pair of stereo reverbs for front and rear, however phasing issues cause problems, causing it to lack realism and skewing the stereo image.

 

If I just went back to standard stereo in artificial spaces, I'd be spoilt for choice. For recreating real spaces, Altiverb has been one of the favorites, but it's too expensive!

 

This is why Space Designer has been an absolute revelation for me as it also does algorithmic and psychedelic artificial spaces 👍

But it's included true quad impulses, with lots of tweaking, breath incredibly large spaces with amazing distance in all directions.