DX7 Bass in its prime! Peter Cetera

[kpl1228]

This has always been a cool mystery bassline to me. Analog? DX7? Real fretless bass? All of the above plus a chicken?

It's DX7-y, but not sure. Thoughts?

 

[timwat]

 

...

[AROIOS]

8 hours ago, kpl1228 said:

This has always been a cool mystery bassline to me. Analog? DX7? Real fretless bass? All of the above plus a chicken?

It's DX7-y, but not sure. Thoughts?

 

Sounds like the DX7 factory preset "Fretless" from ROM #3, i.e. the "Take My Breath Away" bass.

Here's a quick demo of it:

 

[AROIOS]

21 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

I'm gonna guess that swirly sustain on the bass is eight DXs... yes the TX816 which I saw a lot of in studios at that time. You take one patch, put it on all eight modules, and detune them slightly from one another. That's the "swirl." This was done with many FM sounds, to fatten them up.

@Reezekeys so I layered 3 FM bass patches today and got a sound similar to "Glory of Love". This opens a new door for my synth bass programming. Thanks again for the suggestion.

Here's a quick demo of it:

 

 

[moj]

Quote

This has always been a cool mystery bassline to me. Analog? DX7? Real fretless bass? All of the above plus a chicken?

It's DX7-y, but not sure. Thoughts?

 

It was recorded with the Synclavier, as well as other synths.  Dennis Lambert produced, co-wrote it Walter Orange & Franne Golde.  Peter Wolf programmed and played the bass line.  Dennis Lambert did an interview regarding the song and working with the Commodores. It was a magazine interview and can't find it online.

[jazzpiano88]

2 hours ago, AROIOS said:

@Reezekeys so I layered 3 FM bass patches today and got a sound similar to "Glory of Love". This opens a new door for my synth bass programming. Thanks again for the suggestion.

Here's a quick demo of it:

 

 

I would say this bass patch would have made the recording at least 1.414x nicer.   The Bass sound w/ attack minus the bass muddy sustain is perfect.

 

Back then the artists and producers wanted huge bass, which completely destroyed the mastering mix.   So they included such BS Bass sustain from that original Stem attached above.   What they didn't understand is that they only really needed the high frequency components of the Low End, which is what the patch from AROIS achieves.  Instead they ended up with what was like Cellos playing vibrato sustaining in the background which is complete mush and had to be mixed out but retaining a crappy DC component that ended up degrading the overall recording.   

 

So on the Cetera "Next Time I Fall" recording, like, who is going to complain? It's 1985!!!  Who's going to go  "Omar, the Keyboard Bass is too muddy and overpowering....can you ease up on the number of TX816 channels you're using to overload the console over Amy's rich vocal"???     No.   They knew her vocal baritone components were getting shrouded but no one knew why.  

 

It wasn't until a few short years later that mastering and mix engineers realized that they needed to open up the low end to allow the low end to breath.   You can always add low end later, but if the low end is dominated like the original droning sustain (growl / swirl as described above)  bass Stem shown up above, it saturates the mix from that track from the start and there is no recovering. 

 

So the Bottom Line:   Be that as it may, the Cetera tracks are great, but could have been even better.    If there was swirl on the bass, but not on the Electric piano, something was wrong. 

[Reezekeys]

4 hours ago, AROIOS said:

@Reezekeys so I layered 3 FM bass patches today and got a sound similar to "Glory of Love". This opens a new door for my synth bass programming. Thanks again for the suggestion.

Here's a quick demo of it:

 

Nice fat sound you got there! Three basses seems like enough to do the job too.

 

There's another way to do this – a small amount of LFO modulating pitch at slightly different rates on each synth voice. I would put a delay on the offset of the LFO so the attacks are all together and in tune.

[AROIOS]

4 hours ago, jazzpiano88 said:

 

I would say this bass patch would have made the recording at least 1.414x nicer.   The Bass sound w/ attack minus the bass muddy sustain is perfect.

 

Back then the artists and producers wanted huge bass, which completely destroyed the mastering mix.   So they included such BS Bass sustain from that original Stem attached above.   What they didn't understand is that they only really needed the high frequency components of the Low End, which is what the patch from AROIS achieves.  Instead they ended up with what was like Cellos playing vibrato sustaining in the background which is complete mush and had to be mixed out but retaining a crappy DC component that ended up degrading the overall recording.   

 

So on the Cetera "Next Time I Fall" recording, like, who is going to complain? It's 1985!!!  Who's going to go  "Omar, the Keyboard Bass is too muddy and overpowering....can you ease up on the number of TX816 channels you're using to overload the console over Amy's rich vocal"???     No.   They knew her vocal baritone components were getting shrouded but no one knew why.  

 

It wasn't until a few short years later that mastering and mix engineers realized that they needed to open up the low end to allow the low end to breath.   You can always add low end later, but if the low end is dominated like the original droning sustain (growl / swirl as described above)  bass Stem shown up above, it saturates the mix from that track from the start and there is no recovering. 

 

So the Bottom Line:   Be that as it may, the Cetera tracks are great, but could have been even better.    If there was swirl on the bass, but not on the Electric piano, something was wrong. 

Glad you enjoyed the patch, jazzpiano88. And yes, the original bass is more impressive in isolation but could be a PITA to tame in a mix.

The mix engineers behind so many of these Pop and Rock hits don't get nearly as much recognition as they deserve. Only after listening to a lot of the original stems, did I realize what crude materials they were dealing with back in the day.

[tapes]

On 4/10/2024 at 4:20 AM, Mark Zeger said:

Re: “Next Time I Fall In Love”, allow me to segue to its writer, Bobby Caldwell. Love his music. His album Heart Of Mine generated hits for Cetera & Grant, the title cut for Boz Scaggs, and “All Or Nothing At All” for Al Jarreau. Those are 3 of the first 4 songs on the album!

 

 

 

Seriously, Heart of Mine (1989) is a SUCH a fantastic pop/soul album! Not only the songs you mentioned (covered by Scaggs / Cetera / Jarreau), but also at least: "The Real Thing", "Saying It's Over", "Even Now". Those melodies get stuck in your head for days!

 

He was mostly known for "What You Won't Do For Love" (1978), and there's no denying that it's still an incredible song.

 

 

 

[AROIOS]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Nice fat sound you got there! Three basses seems like enough to do the job too.

 

There's another way to do this – a small amount of LFO modulating pitch at slightly different rates on each synth voice. I would put a delay on the offset of the LFO so the attacks are all together and in tune.

Glad you liked it, Reezekeys, and thanks for the new tip. I'm gonna try it out in my next synth bass programming adventure.

[stoken6]

20 hours ago, kpl1228 said:

Real fretless bass?

Would love to hear 80's Pino Palladino take a crack at that line. I'll bet he could work the same kind of magic as on Paul Young's "Wherever I lay my hat".

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Reezekeys]

7 hours ago, AROIOS said:

9 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

There's another way to do this – a small amount of LFO modulating pitch at slightly different rates on each synth voice. I would put a delay on the offset of the LFO so the attacks are all together and in tune.

Glad you liked it, Reezekeys, and thanks for the new tip. I'm gonna try it out in my next synth bass programming adventure.

 

I meant to say put a delay on the onset of the LFO, not the "offset." 🙂 This is done with the "LFO Delay" parameter.

[J.F.N.]

1 hour ago, stoken6 said:

Would love to hear 80's Pino Palladino take a crack at that line. I'll bet he could work the same kind of magic as on Paul Young's "Wherever I lay my hat".

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

Love Palladino's creativity, Stravinsky (like lots of other bass players, inspired by Jaco, using Stravinsky)..