New Cubase SX3

[pbognar]

Information about SX3 upgrade - September 6th

 

I'm still a Emagic Logic 5.5 user on Windows.

 

With Sonar 4 and Cubase SX3 on Windows and Logic Audio on the Mac, I'm still up in the air as to which way to go.

 

I'd like to hear PC people's thoughts on the state of DAW's on the PC and whether it would be better to jump to the Mac. I already know the Mac people would tell me to switch.

 

The only saving grace is that I have no time, with work, playing, and family.

 

Though, the idea of sitting down in front of a laptop with a single USB keyboard and making music with synth plug-in's and recording a couple of audio tracks is looking pretty nice.

 

What would you recommend for that kind of an environment on the PC platform? (I don't think I need the Producer edition of anything...)

 

Pete

[doug osborne]

I'm extremely happy with Sonar 3 Producer as a Logic 5 PC refugee (Sonar 4 should ship by the end of September). I'm sure Cubase would be a great next-step for you, too (I've had a little experience with Nuendo 2 and I was impressed).

 

The philosophical question is whether we need to keep upgrading, or whether Logic 5.5.1 should continue to be a great tool for making music.

 

Logic Pro made me look at getting a Mac for about a minute and a half, but Sonar on a PC has met my needs.

[Gus Lozada]

Originally posted by Doug Osborne:

The philosophical question is whether we need to keep upgrading, or whether Logic 5.5.1 should continue to be a great tool for making music.

 

En both cases, SONAR and CUBASE, there's something to justify the upgrade.

 

SURROUND Processing justifies the entire Sonar 4 upgrade, among other amenities many users were expecting.

 

TIME STRETCH -Live alike- in real time in Cubase was a missing point for those willing to produce faster and explore the creative side of Loops and that justifies the whole enchilada

[doug osborne]

Oh, I already pre-ordered SP4!

 

SP4 does include Prosoniq's MPEX time stretch thingy...

[Geoff Grace]

Here are a few advantages I see. I'm sure there are plenty more. I'll leave the typical Mac vs. PC comments out of this post.

 

Logic Audio on the Mac Option Advantages

You get to keep using the DAW you already know and are comfortable with.

Logic Audio Pro ships with many high quality software synths & samplers included.

The rumored "Pro Tools killer" successor to Logic Audio, if true, could blow away the competition. (For now, that's a BIG if.)

 

Cubase SX on the PC Option Advantages

You get to keep using the OS you already know and are comfortable with.

Want free software synths & samplers? No format offers more of these than does Steinberg's VST.

 

Sonar on the PC Option Advantages

Craig Anderton likes it, so it must be good. (Otherwise, I don't know enough about it to comment.)

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[big K]

for what it is worth , I have grow less and less impressed with stieny for the last 4 years. Realise that when you buy your software, .. you just buy about 2 years worth of use out of it, .. cuase then your going to have to upgrade it again to get all the new stuff that was promised in the first place.

 

I made the jump to nuendo , and to be honest, its nice, but a big mistake. they keep tell you it is there flagship software, but it is not, they have ti second class to cubase, cause it is a bigger market.

 

I am never going to support the software again. I will switch to something else when the time comes.

 

big K - big thumbs down for stienberg.

[Jotown]

Originally posted by big K:

Realise that when you buy your software, .. you just buy about 2 years worth of use out of it, .. cuase then your going to have to upgrade it again to get all the new stuff that was promised in the first place.

I agree with you. But isn't that the case with virtually all software, especially music oriented software?In fact, isn't that the case with your computer as well?

 

I waited 3 years for Pro Tools to get their midi thing together; (still waiting for workable support for Powercore and UAD-1). I waited 3 years for Cakewalk/Sonar to get their audio thing together. In both cases I have upgraded several times, as I will with Cubase SX.

 

It's a dance, if you get a couple of years use out of a DAW based system you are doing pretty well, and doing it very inexpensively compared to what it used to cost just to be in the game.

 

Thats my take on it anyway.

[pbognar]

Originally posted by Doug Osborne:

I'm extremely happy with Sonar 3 Producer as a Logic 5 PC refugee (Sonar 4 should ship by the end of September). I'm sure Cubase would be a great next-step for you, too (I've had a little experience with Nuendo 2 and I was impressed).

 

The philosophical question is whether we need to keep upgrading, or whether Logic 5.5.1 should continue to be a great tool for making music.

 

Logic Pro made me look at getting a Mac for about a minute and a half, but Sonar on a PC has met my needs.

Doug,

 

I upgraded to the PC version of 5.5.1 after the Apple take-over - Dave Smith was a real help, without him I probably would have been out of luck. I figured I should have the last version of the LAG for Windows. (It's all legit, I've got a key and an Emagic cd) The problem was that there was no way to get a manual for the release, but I managed to get a pdf for 5.2.

 

I haven't had time to install yet and play around with it...

 

The question I have is how is the support for VST synth plug-in's? And I don't suppose it has any support for ACID type files...

 

Should I just through in the towel and go for Sonar Studio edition? What synth plugins come with that, and is it pretty stable?

 

From my adventures with some early demos with Sonar are that unlike Logic, which when creating a MIDI drum track of let's say 4 measures and you put it into loop mode, it was smart enough to loop on the measure boundaries and ignore the fact the you may have stopped recording a number of ticks into the next measure.

 

Perhaps the Sonar documentation will help in this situation.

 

Pete

[Steve Force]

FWIW:

 

I HAD Nuendo 2.x and dumped it due to it's instability and lack of "promised" features (read: functions that were in previous versions and omitted in 2.x).

 

The Nuendo forums were full of people complaining (justifibly so) about the product, the lack of Steiny "support" and a host of other issues. It got pretty ugly.

 

I hope Cubase SX 3.x (and Nuendo 3.0 which is developed off of the Cubase platform) "fix" all (or most) issues.

 

HTH

[doug osborne]

...

 

The question I have is how is the support for VST synth plug-in's? And I don't suppose it has any support for ACID type files...

 

Should I just through in the towel and go for Sonar Studio edition? What synth plugins come with that, and is it pretty stable?

 

From my adventures with some early demos with Sonar are that unlike Logic, which when creating a MIDI drum track of let's say 4 measures and you put it into loop mode, it was smart enough to loop on the measure boundaries and ignore the fact the you may have stopped recording a number of ticks into the next measure.

 

Perhaps the Sonar documentation will help in this situation.

 

Pete[/QB]

Logic's support for VSTi and DXi sounds great and is stable, but very clunky for multiple outputs. Logic supports REX files but not ACID loops - Phatmatik Pro seems to let you use ACID loops effectively. Sonar does a great job with DXis, and fair with VSTis using their wrapper; multiple output instruments/samplers and Rewire instruments are handled elegantly

 

Sonar supports ACID loops directly, but not REX (Reason works great as a Rewire client through Sonar, and don't get me started with Logic PC's clunky Rewire implementation), and has its own Groove Clips that can take ACID loops a step further.

 

I'd say from experience that Logic's synths and virtual instruments (ES2, EVP, EXS sampler) are really great, Sonar includes workable synths (Triangle) and Sonar 3 includes a version of VSampler, which seems to be very full-featured, to play samples. I'm confused as to what plugins came with which version of Sonar, but go to Sonar 4 to find out what it includes (I know they have dropped VSampler).

 

Sonar does MIDI sequencing very very well, and doesn't have that bug that Logic had and always will on PC. The sound is great on Sonar and it has been stable as a rock except when changing latencies while a song is open (remember to save...Logic was pretty forgiving here).

 

There are certainly some features on either program that could benefit the other, but many of the features I missed in Sonar from Logic are being incorporated into Sonar 4.

 

Your best bet might be to buy Sonar 3 now, and take the S4 upgrade price as a late-adoptor. You get all plugins from both versions.

[seclusion]

Yep a LAP 5.51 on PC user here still... The great thing about not upgrading is that I could spend the time using it instead of always trying to be on the bleeding edge. Sometimes all that new stuff sounds good on paper but by the time the update comes around you've already spent 2 months searching for answers and pulling your hair out not making $$ or music.... I am curious if anyone has Logic 5.51 running on a P4 with 2 gigs of ram??? Anyone out there??? My poor P3's are getting tired!! If GS3 is stable enough I may try and run it and Logic in one box... But ya I do miss all the hype when a new version of whatever is on it's way..

[doug osborne]

Originally posted by seclusion:

.... I am curious if anyone has Logic 5.51 running on a P4 with 2 gigs of ram??? Anyone out there??? My poor P3's are getting tired!! ..

I was running Logic 5.5.1 on a P4 2.26 with 1G RAM and a couple of 7200 RPM Seagates, WXP Pro.

 

Logic was stable, sounded great, and I was running 24 or more tracks (some audio, some EXS samples, some softsynths) with tons of effects.

[miroslav]

For PC...don't overlook Samplitude.

 

I picked Sam over Cubase/Nuendo and Sonar.

 

Not that I thought the others were bad...just that I liked Samplitude more.

The layout...the audio engine...and the ease with which I had it working.

 

The Cubase demo just never clicked...and even though I bought Sonar...I just didn't like the layout.

 

Anyway...even Samplitude is now upgrading...from version 7 to version 8...for like $250 I think...

 

...but version 8 is going to put it at the top of the class...IMO...though it will require an even more powerfull computer...so that also me require upgrading...

 

...but hey...welcome to the wonderfull world of computer sofware/hardware for audio!!!

The shit is old before the shrink-wrap is removed!!!

[C.Jader]

I'm really pleased with Sonar 3 PE and have already placed my upgrade to Sonar 4.

 

From the looks of it both Cakewalk and Steinberg have included "catch up" features on both ends:

 

Steinberg's catch up features: acid loop support, midi device maps, user-definable workspaces, part based envelopes, color enhancements (yes, color enhancements was listed as a top-10 feature)

 

Cakewalk's catch up features: Folder tracks, Freeze, surround mixing

 

But in Cakewalk's case it really looks like they leapfrogged steinberg with much better implementation of those features. Particularly the surround implementation and freeze.

 

Both programs have other siginficant updates. Personally, I am excited about sonar 4's comping enhancements.

 

Essentially, both programs have most of the same features, so it boils down to other areas.

 

How stable is the ap? Cakewalk has done me well over the years. I abandoned SX because of the bugs (and on KVR they are suggesting that SX3 was rushed for revenue reasons.)

 

How good is the support? I think Cakewalk wins this one too, and if their support fails (which they haven't) the cakewalk newsgroup on their site is awesome.

 

How does the program feel? When I moved to SONAR I couldn't believe how intuitive the program was, I simply get my projects done faster.

 

Just my humble opinion

[spokenward]

excerpted Originally posted by miroslav:

For PC...don't overlook Samplitude.

 

I picked Sam over Cubase/Nuendo and Sonar.

yep, me too. It's smart, insanely capable and it makes me smile. It will be interesting. They apparently want to compete more directly with the music apps with this release . They are translating the manual now. I wonder which half of it will be in English. (heh-heh) Seriously though, they have better distribution in place this time around. They will be much more visible.

[pbognar]

Originally posted by Doug Osborne:

...

 

The question I have is how is the support for VST synth plug-in's? And I don't suppose it has any support for ACID type files...

 

Should I just through in the towel and go for Sonar Studio edition? What synth plugins come with that, and is it pretty stable?

 

From my adventures with some early demos with Sonar are that unlike Logic, which when creating a MIDI drum track of let's say 4 measures and you put it into loop mode, it was smart enough to loop on the measure boundaries and ignore the fact the you may have stopped recording a number of ticks into the next measure.

 

Perhaps the Sonar documentation will help in this situation.

 

Pete

Logic's support for VSTi and DXi sounds great and is stable, but very clunky for multiple outputs. Logic supports REX files but not ACID loops - Phatmatik Pro seems to let you use ACID loops effectively. Sonar does a great job with DXis, and fair with VSTis using their wrapper; multiple output instruments/samplers and Rewire instruments are handled elegantly

 

Sonar supports ACID loops directly, but not REX (Reason works great as a Rewire client through Sonar, and don't get me started with Logic PC's clunky Rewire implementation), and has its own Groove Clips that can take ACID loops a step further.

 

I'd say from experience that Logic's synths and virtual instruments (ES2, EVP, EXS sampler) are really great, Sonar includes workable synths (Triangle) and Sonar 3 includes a version of VSampler, which seems to be very full-featured, to play samples. I'm confused as to what plugins came with which version of Sonar, but go to Sonar 4 to find out what it includes (I know they have dropped VSampler).

 

Sonar does MIDI sequencing very very well, and doesn't have that bug that Logic had and always will on PC. The sound is great on Sonar and it has been stable as a rock except when changing latencies while a song is open (remember to save...Logic was pretty forgiving here).

 

There are certainly some features on either program that could benefit the other, but many of the features I missed in Sonar from Logic are being incorporated into Sonar 4.

 

Your best bet might be to buy Sonar 3 now, and take the S4 upgrade price as a late-adoptor. You get all plugins from both versions.[/QB]

So the consensus here is that if LAG PC 5.5.1 is doing the job - stick with it, otherwise, skip Cubase SX3 and move to Sonar 4 (I could only afford the Studio Edition)? Since I have an old Cakewalk product, the upgrade would be $199.

 

Even after visiting the Sonar4 site though, I'm unclear as to what DXi synths / drum machines are included...

 

Pete

[doug osborne]

Actually, I should make it clear that I have no opinion on Cubase SX3, since I haven't tried it. I'm only lightly experienced with Nuendo 2. I used to own a stripped down version of Samp that came with a sound card - user interface and manual were just plain opaque, but it worked wonderfully, and I assume they've made some progress with this new thing called MIDI.

 

If we are to assume that all of these programs would allow you to make music, could that be an argument for saving money and staying with Logic 5.5.1? Well, I didn't

[pbognar]

Originally posted by Doug Osborne:

Actually, I should make it clear that I have no opinion on Cubase SX3, since I haven't tried it. I'm only lightly experienced with Nuendo 2. I used to own a stripped down version of Samp that came with a sound card - user interface and manual were just plain opaque, but it worked wonderfully, and I assume they've made some progress with this new thing called MIDI.

 

If we are to assume that all of these programs would allow you to make music, could that be an argument for saving money and staying with Logic 5.5.1? Well, I didn't

Ain't it the truth... I remember years ago, seeing C-Lab's Notator running on an Atari 1040. The feature which blew me away was the notation editing, which actually modified the MIDI data stream. In addition, if you selected a note within a chord, and moved it up or down in pitch, the chord would replay with the new pitches. I thought this was the holy grail to my musical output. I immediately sold my PC XT clone, and bought an Atari and Notator. Did my music output improve - hell no. I was more productive with Texture on the PC and even on my 4 track Porta- Studio.

 

I keep telling myself that the easier it is to make music and the more features are at my disposal, the more productive I will be - not true.

 

You get caught up in features and working with music visually as opposed aurally. While that may be true for assembling a song, it doesn't do a damn thing for creating good music.

 

But then again, look at all those features in Sonar 4.

 

Pete

[doug osborne]

...

But then again, look at all those features in Sonar 4.

 

Pete[/QB]

I already placed my SP4 pre-order

[C.Jader]

Originally posted by pbognar:

[QB skip Cubase SX3 and move to Sonar 4 (I could only afford the Studio Edition)? Since I have an old Cakewalk product, the upgrade would be $199. [/QB]

I would continue to use logic until I had the money for producer to get the surround features and fx, the mpex time stretching, powr dithering, the sonitus fx suite, and better console view. Those are all well worth the extra change.

[Apophis]

Cubase/Nuendo 3 is going to be awesome! Nuendo is the best DAW software I have ever used. Sure Steinberg has their problems but who doesn't.

[pbognar]

Originally posted by C.Jader:

Originally posted by pbognar:

[QB skip Cubase SX3 and move to Sonar 4 (I could only afford the Studio Edition)? Since I have an old Cakewalk product, the upgrade would be $199.

I would continue to use logic until I had the money for producer to get the surround features and fx, the mpex time stretching, powr dithering, the sonitus fx suite, and better console view. Those are all well worth the extra change.[/QB]

So in your opinion Studio is that much more inferior to Producer? I could probably live without the mpex time stretching (I'm assuming that there is still some other sort of time stretching in Studio), but not having eq and fx sends on the console view would suck.

 

I guess I'll have to attend the Sonar 4 demo they have scheduled locally in October.

 

I'd also be interested to see if Cubase SX3 still has any sort of competative upgrade for Logic users. I haven't seen any of Cubase SX for some time - does it still have a notation editor?

 

Pete

[ManInTheBox]

Originally posted by pbognar:

Doug,

 

I upgraded to the PC version of 5.5.1 after the Apple take-over - Dave Smith was a real help, without him I probably would have been out of luck. I figured I should have the last version of the LAG for Windows. (It's all legit, I've got a key and an Emagic cd) The problem was that there was no way to get a manual for the release, but I managed to get a pdf for 5.2.

 

I haven't had time to install yet and play around with it...

 

The question I have is how is the support for VST synth plug-in's? And I don't suppose it has any support for ACID type files...

 

Should I just through in the towel and go for Sonar Studio edition? What synth plugins come with that, and is it pretty stable?

 

From my adventures with some early demos with Sonar are that unlike Logic, which when creating a MIDI drum track of let's say 4 measures and you put it into loop mode, it was smart enough to loop on the measure boundaries and ignore the fact the you may have stopped recording a number of ticks into the next measure.

 

Perhaps the Sonar documentation will help in this situation.

 

Pete

I also got into Logic 5.5.2, even after the apple turnover, I stayed with Logic for like 2 years. But I was doing a lot in Acid, and then it was time to move to XP. So I got into Sonar2.2

I was annoyed by the difference in the looping of midi tracks also, then S3 came out and closed the gap a little. You can loop midi sequences, but it's not the same as Logic.

The included instruments aren't as good in Any Sonar version as what came with Logic 5.5.2. There are plus and minuses both ways, depending on your musical preferences, but i think Logic wins. Overall, I am glad I made the switch to Sonar, because there are things I can't do at all in Logic. The way Acid Loops are handled for one. The Cyclone DXi is another. And being I don't own a GM sound source Edirol's VSC was great till I understood how to set up VSampler as a GM sound source.

S4 is going to have FolderTracks, and a way cool mute tool

SX3 is going to have audio warp, which is unlike any other time stretching to date. It's not like live, which just takes one track and make it fit with another in real time. Audio warp lets you change the timing at the sample level. Your singer starts too early on the second chorus, on an otherwise perfect take, with three mouse clicks, you can have her in perfect timing. Also way cool.

I need to check these features out for myself, to see the actual mechanics before I commit my moolah. Cake will let you download a Demo from their website. SteinBerg won't, so I gotta make a trip to GuitCenter.

I've been very pleased with Cake, and the two comments dogging Cubase/Nuendo in this thread by Cubase/Nuendo users has really got me wondering if I should even consider Cubase.

But to answer your question......I don't know.

[Anderton]

Yes, I really like Sonar, and V4 looks like a very significant upgrade. But so much depends on how you use the program. When Sonar 1.0 came out, it was if it had been designed with someone looking over my shoulder to see my workflow. So I got into it, and never saw any real reason to change.

 

But I'll also say this: If I was told tomorrow that I could use only Sonar, or Cubase, or Samplitude, or Logic, etc. etc. I'd be fine. These programs are getting into very fine shades of differentiation at this point. As an analogy, you might like Strats but if something happened where all Strats disappeared from the face of the earth, then you'd play another guitar, not give up playing guitar altogether.

 

The more tightly you define your needs, the easier it will be to choose the program you want.

 

FYI regarding Sonar 4, it comes with a new General MIDI synth designed in conjunction with Roland (the TTS-1), and the Cyclone DXi. Not sure what else comes with it at this point, but I'm sure we'll find out soon enough. And yes Producer IS worth the extra bucks, absolutely...if for no other reason than the Sonitus plug-ins, which are excellent and very underrated.

[doug osborne]

Originally posted by Anderton:

.... Not sure what else comes with it at this point, but I'm sure we'll find out soon enough. And yes Producer IS worth the extra bucks, absolutely....[/QB]

Sonar4 should answer any questions...

[Philip OKeefe]

Pete, the notation display and editing in Notator was incredible - especially back in 1988. I'd pay a pretty penny for that functionality in Pro Tools.

[GY]

Everyday I use;

 

Sonar 3 (pre-ordered 4)

Audition 1.5 (for fine audio editing)

Reason 2.5 (works great with Sonar)

[Anderton]

[sonar 3 (pre-ordered 4)

Audition 1.5 (for fine audio editing)

Reason 2.5 (works great with Sonar)]

 

Excellent choices. May I also add that Wavelab5 is very, very impressive, although it doesn't have the equivalent of Audition's incredible noise reduction tools.

[John Sayers]

Cubase/Nuendo 3 is going to be awesome! Nuendo is the best DAW software I have ever used. Sure Steinberg has their problems but who doesn't.

Yeah - I agree - steinberg started the whole thing for when I first used pro24. Then they created the scrolling tracks that everyone copied in Cubase.

 

I suspect that the guys at Stienberg were burnt out - hence the fiasco over cubase and nuendo.

 

I hope they've all recieved max payouts from Pinnacle and have probably retired - I would have

 

It's now up to Pinnacle to reassemble it all and collate it in Nuendo/Cubase 2.

 

good luck Pinnacle

 

cheers

john

[Jotown]

Hey Craig, (or anyone)

Since this thread is about Cubase SX 3, what are your thoughts on the improvements?

 

Is the audio engine substantially better?

Are there any other features that make it a "must have" upgrade?

 

Thanks in advance, and I am glad to hear that you survived the storm.

 

(And the band kicks in to.......

 

"Ridin' the Storm Out.... Oooooo"

Ridin' the Storm Out...."