Would a keyboard amp or better speakers solve my issue?

[ms54321]

Hi, I have two midi keyboards feeding into my macbook / Logic and I play multiple instruments/tracks (via the keyboards) at the same time, usually drums + a couple of other virtual instruments. This all sounds great and works perfect through my headphones plugged into the macbook, no distortion of sound etc no matter how many tracks/instruments I'm playing simultaneously.

I have a pair of Edifier MR4 Studio Monitors (4" woofer, 1" tweeter) and when I plug these into my macbook and play single track/instrument it sounds great. But when I play multuple tracks/vst's, especially if one of them is drums, the sound from the speakers fades/low volume - ie it cuts to about half or a quarter of the volume coming out the speakers, then I go back to playing single instrument and it's full volume again.

So basically it seems like these speakers can't handle drums + other synth sounds/vst's simultaneously, I don't know if that's because of the size of the speakers or what?

So I'm thinking I need either better speakers that would handle this, or a keyboard amp. 

I have a budget of around USD $500 - $600 (at a push!)

Keyboard Amps - I can get Behringer Ultratone K900FX  (available in my country NZ and within my budget) or go to the high end of my budget and get Roland KC200. Ideally the K900FX as it's cheaper.

Speakers - I have no clue about really.

So can anyone advise me:

1) what is likely causing the sound to go quiet with drums + other instruments simultaneously on my current speakers

2) would that be solved by the K900FX keyboard amp (or at a push the KC200)

3) if not does anybody have any recommendations of speakers in general in this price range that wouldn't have this issue and would they be a better bet than the keyboard amps

Many thanks!

[voxpops]

This sounds to me like the speakers are applying some form of auto-level compensation. I notice that the Edifier MR4 has a button to switch between "monitor" mode and "music" mode. My guess is that "music" mode makes adjustments, whereas "monitor" keeps things clean - but that really is just a guess. Have you tried a long press to switch modes?

 

As for alternative amplification, it seems unlikely that you'd solve your issues by using a keyboard amp without introducing new ones. Currently you're running a small stereo setup, presumably for mixing/monitoring. The K900FX and KC200 are both designed for mono stage reproduction, unless coupled with a second unit. I owned the K900FX some years ago and now have the KXD15 as a backup for stage use, and although they're really quite good as far as keyboard amps go, they probably won't give you the fidelity you need at low, close quarters listening volumes - and they're large and fairly heavy. It really depends what you're trying to achieve and in what context. Speakers designed for near-field listening are tuned differently to those designed for stage, so it's not that easy to find multi-purpose tools. I have a pair of EV-ZXA1 PA speakers for amplifying my keys on stage when I don't need a heavy bottom end. They're pretty much perfect in that context, but are less good at low volumes in a small room - i.e. when they're not being driven at stage volumes.

 

The last time I bought studio monitors was when I had a pair of Yamaha HS7s. They were great for accurate reproduction, if a little unforgiving, and you could probably pick up a pair of those secondhand and in good condition for somewhere near your budget. Otherwise, I wouldn't pretend to know what to recommend. However, I would check into the different modes on your Edifiers and maybe provide a little more info about how you intend to use these speakers.

[Mighty Motif Max]

If you're wanting a nice sounding studio monitor setup, I'm a fan of the JBL LSR305p MKII's. You can get a pair for around USD 300...or cheaper with sales. Nice sounding for pretty much everything, not just good for mixing.

 

As far as what's happening with your monitors, maybe they're being overloaded? I see they're active and not passive, but maybe there's some sort of SPL limit involved. The other thing that came to mind is whether what you're actually hearing is a buffer issue with your audio interface - that can cause audio dropouts, fades, and all sorts of weird things. In that case it would be your computer settings that would need to be adjusted, rather than the speakers (and a new set of speakers wouldn't change anything). You mentioned things work fine when you're connected via headphones to the Macbook itself. How do you have the speakers hooked up?

[stoken6]

2 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

I'm a fan of the JBL LSR305p MKII's

These come up as recommended fairly regularly in threads here. +1

 

Cheers, Mike.

[ms54321]

Hi, thanks everyone. I intend to use the speakers in a home environment, jamming with friends (who are playing guitar and bass through loud amps) - so need volume, plus accurate reproduction of the sound I get from Logic/Mackbook - ie it all sounds great through the headphones, I want that same great sound through external speakers - and yeah speakers connected via macbook pro headphone jack.

 

To the people that mentioned the JBL LSR305p MKII - I can't find any in NZ that have "LSR" in the name, but I found these - are these the ones you are recommending? Are these much better than my Edifier MR4's ?

https://www.rubbermonkey.co.nz/JBL-305P-MKII-5in-2-way-Powered-Studio-Monitor

[ms54321]

4 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

If you're wanting a nice sounding studio monitor setup, I'm a fan of the JBL LSR305p MKII's. You can get a pair for around USD 300...or cheaper with sales. Nice sounding for pretty much everything, not just good for mixing.

 

As far as what's happening with your monitors, maybe they're being overloaded? I see they're active and not passive, but maybe there's some sort of SPL limit involved. The other thing that came to mind is whether what you're actually hearing is a buffer issue with your audio interface - that can cause audio dropouts, fades, and all sorts of weird things. In that case it would be your computer settings that would need to be adjusted, rather than the speakers (and a new set of speakers wouldn't change anything). You mentioned things work fine when you're connected via headphones to the Macbook itself. How do you have the speakers hooked up?

Yeah I have the speakers hooked up to the headphone port of the macbook pro - is there another option?

Are these the speakers that you mention (they don't say 'LSR'):

https://www.rubbermonkey.co.nz/JBL-305P-MKII-5in-2-way-Powered-Studio-Monitor

[ms54321]

2 hours ago, stoken6 said:

These come up as recommended fairly regularly in threads here. +1

 

Cheers, Mike.

Yeah I've just been reading a lot of positive stuff about them, they look a lot better than the speakers I currently have and could well solve the issue as well, these are the ones yeah? (they don't say 'lsr'):

https://www.rubbermonkey.co.nz/JBL-305P-MKII-5in-2-way-Powered-Studio-Monitor

[JamPro]

If you are on a budget, do not spend any money on new speakers until you are sure the speakers are the problem.  And from the description, I am not sure at all that your current speakers are the problem.

 

I'm going to suggest you look in Logic, and check the channel volume of each track or instrument.  Does the Drum track play back robustly by itself?  What happens when you try to play live with one Drum track?  See if there is a limiter/compressor in the virtual signal chain.

 

"But when I play multuple tracks/vst's, especially if one of them is drums, the sound from the speakers fades/low volume....."

Do you actually notice the volume fading?  What are the virtual output levels showing in Logic when you hear the volume change?

 

Let us know what you find.

[Stokely]

I've never actually used any DAW without an audio interface, but then I've always have wanted a mic preamp.   I wonder how that mac headphone output may be playing with the speakers (impedance?)   As someone mentioned, it sounds like something is doing some kind of compression/limiting, and if the headphone mix isn't doing it then it probably is the speakers you are currently using.

[AnotherScott]

 

4 hours ago, JamPro said:

If you are on a budget, do not spend any money on new speakers until you are sure the speakers are the problem.  And from the description, I am not sure at all that your current speakers are the problem.

 

I'm going to suggest you look in Logic, and check the channel volume of each track or instrument.  Does the Drum track play back robustly by itself?  What happens when you try to play live with one Drum track?  See if there is a limiter/compressor in the virtual signal chain.

Since it sounds fine in headphones, it does sound like it's going to be a speaker issue, not a Logic issie.

 

6 hours ago, ms54321 said:

To the people that mentioned the JBL LSR305p MKII - I can't find any in NZ that have "LSR" in the name, but I found these - are these the ones you are recommending?

Yes. LSR is the prefix for the earlier model, replaced by the Mk II which no longer says LSR. But...

 

6 hours ago, ms54321 said:

 I intend to use the speakers in a home environment, jamming with friends (who are playing guitar and bass through loud amps)

The JBLs are nearfield monitor speakers, and not suitable for playing keys and drums through when playing with a loud guitarist and bassist. You need something designed for live performance sound levels (and probably better dispersion, not so optimized for a single listener). In a low-cost option, I like the Alto TS408, but if even that's over budget. I know some people have been happy with the TX308.

 

6 hours ago, ms54321 said:

it all sounds great through the headphones, I want that same great sound through external speakers

You can pretty much forget that idea. If you've got high quality headphones, getting anywhere close to that in live-performance oriented speakers can easily get very pricey, even before you get to the variable of the room itself which can play a big impact.

[KuruPrionz]

I've no idea about New Zealand in terms of used gear availability, shipping costs, etc.

Up here in Washington state I found a pair of Mackie HR824 speakers at a pawn shop for $600 and 3 Yamaha MSP5 speakers for $100 on craigslist. 

Both speakers are great for monitoring, for performance the Mackies are much better, you could play club gigs with them if the cabinets were more robust and designed for live use. 

[drawback]

14 hours ago, ms54321 said:

I have a pair of Edifier MR4 Studio Monitors (4" woofer, 1" tweeter) and when I plug these into my macbook and play single track/instrument it sounds great. But when I play multuple tracks/vst's, especially if one of them is drums, the sound from the speakers fades/low volume - ie it cuts to about half or a quarter of the volume coming out the speakers, then I go back to playing single instrument and it's full volume again.

So basically it seems like these speakers can't handle drums + other synth sounds/vst's simultaneously, I don't know if that's because of the size of the speakers or what?

I have no problems with my Mac to JBL 305 MkIIs but I do have a mixer in between. I'm wondering if your speaker output is suffering from lack of gain. 

[voxpops]

The Line 6 L2T seems to be switchable for different functions or environments, but is a fairly expensive piece of kit. It may be one of the closest things to a multipurpose speaker at the moment. I have no experience of it, but if it allows for effective nearfield / midfield listening as well as stage performance then it might be worth considering secondhand.

 

https://line6.com/data/6/0a06434d16dcc51080ca2e605f/application/pdf/Line6 L2t Specifications - English ( Rev A ).pdf

[Jose EB5AGV]

I have a first generation JBL LSR305 set and they are good for studio work, but not for your intended use.

 

Now I will say something that will make some people here cringe 😬, but I had a blast using my K1800FX amplifier (an old brother of the current K900FX), nowhere close to maximum volume, on our last Sunday gig. I played keys, and bass and guitar players had their amps also. It was a pop/rock gig and I played from acoustic piano to powerful synths sounds and also strings and pads, and the result was pretty decent.

 

The venue had a maximum capacity of 70 people, and was full 👍🏻

 

So, well, for your use, a humble K900FX may do the job. It would be perfect if you could try it, of course.

[Tusker]

What instrument sounds are you playing in logic? (Stock instruments?)
 

Some instruments need stereo more than others. Some have more need of bass reproduction than others. 
 

If you don’t mind sharing a bit about your music, it would help move the discussion along. 
 

Keeping up with loud guitar and bass amps (and drums!) may require compromises in the pristine sound quality you are enjoying on your headphones. Telling us more about your situation will help us consider the trade-offs you may have to make.
 

Off the bat I would say that if your sounds are acceptable in mono, that will simplify your amplification problem.

[Reezekeys]

Wow New Zealand is not the place to buy gear - I wonder if you can import directly from Thomann or anothr global store. I was gonna recommend Alto TX308s - but you would likely want a pair as many Mainstage/Logic sounds are going to be very lacking compared to what you hear now through headphones. I would consider stereo a must. I found the speakers here:

 

https://www.rockshop.co.nz/alto-professional-tx308-active-320-watt-peak-2-way-8-inch-ported-loudspeaker-each

 

$369 NZD each. From what I see, that converts to $227 USD - they're $140 USD here in the USA! So, $454 USD for the pair. Then you should only need a cable (or cable & adapters) that goes from the headphone out to two XLR male plugs.

 

 

[SonicKeysII]

I recently bought an Alto 408 to use as a monitor for my Casio PX-560 and/or Yamaha P125, plugging either board directly into the powered speaker.  The Alto 408 did not have enough gain without running it through a mixer.  When I flipped the microphone swith, it had too much gain and that really wasn't a solution.  I brought the Alto 408 to a gig with a 10 piece band and ultimately abandoned it and used the QSC monitor supplied by the soundman.  In contradistinction, I use a little Behringer hot spot monitor in practice with my regular band without a mixer and it is loud.  I am currently running a Roland VR-09 and a Yamaha P125 through the Behringer on separate inputs without a monitor.   Our bass player complained it was too loud in practice last night.  On the other hand, the Behringer cannot handle bass that well and it has its own limitations.

 

I have seen discussions on this board about the fact that some keyboards are "hotter" than others and some keyboards allow you to up the gain before the signal goes to the board.  On that note, a simple solution is to use a mixer with gain controls on each input with a speaker or speakers  like the Alto 408.  That sometimes is just inconvenient.  Yes, I have a wall of mixers in my basement.  I don't like to take them out of my basement.

 

Assuming I am looking for a powered monitor which does not suffer from lack of gain and don't want to use a mixer, what are your suggestions?  Which powered monitors have gain control options or cut through the mix like a knife similar to the Behringer but have better sound, including bass?  

 

Thanks.

[Reezekeys]

39 minutes ago, SonicKeysII said:

The Alto 408 did not have enough gain without running it through a mixer.  When I flipped the microphone swith, it had too much gain and that really wasn't a solution.

 

With the switch at mic position, did you try reducing the input gain on the TX? I can’t see how “too much gain” is a problem when it’s so easily rectified.

 

On my QSC K8s I kept the gain at maximum with the switch on line level. On really loud gigs I switched to mic level but then backed the gain down to 12 o’clock. I had plenty of clean volume.

[SonicKeysII]

It is possible I could have played with the keyboard and made the 408 work with the mic position "on."  Frankly, I thought it sounded terrible and was offered a simple solution of using a QSC monitor on the spot by the sound guy.  I do not understand why a powered speaker rated at 1,000 watts cannot produce even close to the same level of volume as a little Behringer hot spot.  I never turn up my other powered speakers very much.  I use Yamaha DXR 10s with pretty good results.  Maybe, I was just disappointed with the 408 and that is my problem.  I was being cheap when I bought it.  Probably, I should have reached into my wallet and bought the QSC 8 inch version of the same speaker for more than double the money.  I will try the speaker with a small mixer and see what kind of results I can get.  As a stand alone powered monitor, I am not currently a fan.  I, for one, don't think goosing the gain in the mic position for a line level keyboard is necessarily a great thing to do.  Don't claim to be an expert here.

[Reezekeys]

3 hours ago, SonicKeysII said:

I do not understand why a powered speaker rated at 1,000 watts cannot produce even close to the same level of volume as a little Behringer hot spot.

 

I have Alto TX308s and QSC K8s. So, I can't speak about the 408 specifically but I'll eat my hat if what you said above is true. A 1000 watt speaker can certainly get louder than a Behringer hot spot! It sounds to me like you may need to look into the subject of gain staging. It's possible that your keyboard has a low enough output that feeding into the TX408 set to line level can't get it to produce sufficient volume. I don't have this issue because I connect either a laptop or an iPhone or iPad headphone output to my speakers, and those headphone outputs easily produce enough voltage to drive my speakers to a good volume. However, in your case, that's what the mic/line switch is for. On my K8s, which have that switch, the active components of the input circuitry are exactly the same no matter the setting - the switch simply engages some resistors to cut the level down when set to line level – in other words, it just pads down the signal level so as not to overload the input. You don't say whether your TX408 sounded terrible only when set to mic level - if that's the case, maybe there is something else going on circuit-wise.

 

My TX308s don't have a mic/line switch, just a single potentiometer that adjusts between the two levels. The speaker is unusable if I turn the level up too high - way too noisy. Of course at that setting it's also way more gain than I need - I leave it at 12 o'clock when I'm home and around 2 o'clock when I'm on a gig with a drummer and need more volume. On those louder gigs I do notice my speakers' tone thinning out when I push them - which I attribute to the cheaper drivers reaching their excursion limits or maybe the non-defeatable limiter kicking in. Such is the case with $140 speakers and I'm not broken-hearted about it. If I think I'm gonna need volume with headroom to spare I bring my K8s.

 

Good luck in your search for the sound you like!

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, SonicKeysII said:

In contradistinction, I use a little Behringer hot spot monitor in practice with my regular band without a mixer and it is loud. 

 

My guess is that you're not running the Behringer without a mixer, but rather, it has a mixer built-into it which is why you don't need to connect an external one to get comparable gain.

 

I'm not sure about this, but I think the PA cabs (whether Alto or QSC, whoever) expect a +4 input, and keyboards are typically -10 at their output; and the mere use of an active mixer between the two turns the -10 in to a +4 to send to the PA cab. Which would mean that, with no other settings/adjustments, you've got a 14 dB volume increase right there. Maybe someone else can confirm.

 

As for the comment about how loud "1000 watts" should be, there are lots of variables there (like how it's measured, the efficiency of the speakers, and whether there's biamplification and if so how much goes to each driver). But also keep in mind that, all else being equal, the difference between 125 watts and 1000 watts is still only 9 dB.

 

As for a powered PA speaker that does not require a mixer, I like the Bose L1 Pro 8. (And again, the reason it doesn't need a mixer is that it has one built in.)

 

 

[SonicKeysII]

15 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

My guess is that you're not running the Behringer without a mixer, but rather, it has a mixer built-into it which is why you don't need to connect an external one to get comparable gain.

 

I'm not sure about this, but I think the PA cabs (whether Alto or QSC, whoever) expect a +4 input, and keyboards are typically -10 at their output; and the mere use of an active mixer between the two turns the -10 in to a +4 to send to the PA cab. Which would mean that, with no other settings/adjustments, you've got a 14 dB volume increase right there. Maybe someone else can confirm.

 

As for the comment about how loud "1000 watts" should be, there are lots of variables there (like how it's measured, the efficiency of the speakers, and whether there's biamplification and if so how much goes to each driver). But also keep in mind that, all else being equal, the difference between 125 watts and 1000 watts is still only 9 dB.

 

As for a powered PA speaker that does not require a mixer, I like the Bose L1 Pro 8. (And again, the reason it doesn't need a mixer is that it has one built in.)

 

 

 

[SonicKeysII]

Thanks Scott.  From reading another thread regarding the new Yamaha CK synths, other players were complaining about the lack of gain coming from the boards and a few people offer a simple solution, that being the board can internally be changed to increase the output by flicking the correct switch.  One of users specifically told us how to do it on that board.  Based on my common sense, if you have to turn the powered speaker all the way up, something is wrong.  On the flip side, based on my common sense, using a mic switch on the back of a powered speaker to increase gain is not a great idea.  It is a great way to overload the system and the sound is not clean.  Maybe my common sense is wrong, but i don't think so.   Do you have an opinion on the subject?  Can you use a direct box to increase the gain?  Or, if your board doesn't have the facility to increase the gain at the board level and you are not using a mixer, you are probably not going to be happy with using a powered speaker which doesn't have a typical trim or gain knob found on every mixer which is completely variable.  Obviouly, if I am using a direct box and sending my signal to the FOH board, the gain staging can take place at that level assuming the soundman is aware of the issue.  But if my monitor is routed directly off of my board and not back from the FOH, it may lack volume unless I use a side mixer which is a pain in the ass.  Also, in one of my side bands which uses In Ear monitoring, the guy running sound does not want me to use a side mixer.  He wants all levels adjusted at the FOH and the monitor mixes can be adjusted on the returns.  We have one of those systems where every IPad works as a custom submixer.  it is pretty sweet but then again I have no idea what is going out to the crowd.  When we have a soundman out in the crowd, it is ideal.  I am prepared to spring for the latest and greatest from QVC in an eight inch powered monitor.  I may buy it and have the same issues that I have with my new Alto 408.  Maybe, I just stop complaining and use a side mixer and play with the gain at that level.  Or keeping using my Behringer which works perfectly for its intended purpose except when I need to play bass and it can't handle it properly.  My overall goal is to go for small and light these days.  

[Reezekeys]

16 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I'm not sure about this, but I think the PA cabs (whether Alto or QSC, whoever) expect a +4 input, and keyboards are typically -10 at their output; and the mere use of an active mixer between the two turns the -10 in to a +4 to send to the PA cab.

 

How can you say those cabs are expecting a +4 signal when you can plug a microphone directly into them - that's how much gain their preamp circuitry has! That's why this discussion is so insane to me. The gain is there, in the cabinet - is there some psychological thing about seeing the word "mic" as a label on a switch? I got my first PPAs in 1999 - Mackie SRM450s, and have been connecting my keyboards, laptops, and i-devices directly to them with this switch on "mic" anytime I needed a lot of volume - with good sound and no ill effect at all. Have I been in the matrix the last twenty four years? 🙂 

 

Of course it's true you have to be a little careful when you do it like this - as in, don't have the input trim maxxed when you plug your keyboard in with the switch on "mic"! 🙂 I always started with the trim all the way CCW, then after everything is plugged in and turned on, and the synth/laptop set to a nominal output level, I raise the trim on the speaker to where it's needed.

[SonicKeysII]

Your reality and mine are different.  I will play around with my Alto speaker and see if I can get better results as you have.  Actually, I hope I can.  If I have to significantly lower the volume on my synth to adjust for the boast from the mic position into the 408, that might cause problems with not enough volume going to the FOH.  Don't know.  Just bought the speaker and it did not serve its purpose on its first gig.  But I bought it 24 hours before the gig and did not have time to play with it at all.  My solution was to abandon it completely when I was offered a solution from the soundman.  I occasionally look for help on this forum when I am having a problem I cannot solve on my own.  I appreciate your comments.  They are helpful.

 

Yes, I can blast my Yamaha DXR 10s without a mixer.  Cannot say the same about my Alto 408.  Personally, I was trained to never use a mic switch on a keyboard and apparently you are saying I am dead wrong.  Live and learn.  

 

I played a Fender Rhodes in the seventies and ealry eighties.  When I played out, I used two Leslie cabinets designed for electric piano which by themselves did not cut it.  (These were not the traditional Leslie cabinets for organs). I hired an music equipment/electronics firm to build a custom Fagen-like pre-amp into the system and also added a Morley pedal to boast the sound and do other things.  It was tricky, but in the right room, the Rhodes sounded pretty sweet.  I got a lot of compliments.  The set-up required smart gain staging depending on the room.  We worked constantly, so I had plenty of time to figure out my gear.  This was back in the day when keyboard players brought their own amps and did not tie into the mains.  The monitors were for vocals although there was enough bleed through from the sound coming from the stage that everything could be heard. 

 

I have used side mixers many times.  Trying to avoid that.  Today, I do not rely on my monitor to serve as the sound going out to the crowd.  I always tie into the FOH with a passive DI box.  First, I want to preserve my hearing and second I believe that keys need to run through the mains to be adequately heard in the mix.  I need a monitor which is loud enough to compete with the stage volume which varies depending on the drummer and the guitar player more than anything else.  There is nothing worse than having a guitar player's amp positioned too close to you when you literally cannot hear your monitor.   Been there.  Done that.  Not a lot of fun.  

 

The best solution is to go in ears all the time.  You hear everything better at a much lower volume.  With that solution, you toss your monitors in your basement to collect dust.  In the meantime, I am still searching for the holy grail in a good monitor which is light and small and projects adequately for my needs without the need for a side mixer.  I will eat my words if I can tame the 408 as you have suggested.  Thanks again for the feedback.  I sincerely appreciate it.

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

 

How can you say those cabs are expecting a +4 signal when you can plug a microphone directly into them

 

I think they're expecting a +4 signal when the built-in mic preamp is not engaged, and a mic level input when it is. But this kind of distinction seemed more apparent on PA gear that had a physical switch (or separate dedicated inputs). I'm not saying you can't send a -10 signal and get more volume out of it by engaging the mic preamp, of course you can. (Whether there is or isn't any signal degradation may be a different question, and even if the mic preamp adds noise, it may be negligible, at least in a live playing situation.)

 

Regardless, my point was that I think this is why if you plug a (typical -10) keyboard into the line level input of a PA cab (or otherwise stop short of engaging the PA cab's built-in mic level support), the level tends to be low, compared to plugging that same keyboard into a typical guitar/bass/keyboard amp, or plugging it into a mixer before sending it to the PA, those other devices being things that are designed to "expect" a -10 input in the first place, thus avoiding your "workaround" of sending a -10 line level signal and setting the PA cab to think it's a mic.

 

 

[Reezekeys]

8 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

I think they're expecting a +4 signal when the built-in mic preamp is not engaged, and a mic level input when it is.

 

In the case of my K8, there is no separate "mic preamp" that's engaged or not. It's a single preamp circuit for any signal received at the input. The mic/line switch simply engages a pad when set to "line"- the two 20K resistors (R104 and R105). However, the input trim control (circled) is after the first gain stage - so with the switch on "mic" it's possible to overload that first stage (U14) if what's coming in from the keyboard is too hot. That's why you have to pay a little extra attention to gain staging when you do it like this! You have to find the right balance of level settings between the output of your instrument and the trim control on the speaker. It's really not that hard to do.

 

Of course this is one company's design (and an old one at that). I can't say what Alto does - maybe they add a separate input stage for when the switch is on mic? All I know is that I'd definitely invest some time adjusting levels to get a good result before shelling out for a mixer! And of course I'm not gonna claim that having the switch on "mic" is gonna produce the cleanest, most noise-free solution. The preamp circuitry of a quality dedicated mixer might gain you a few db more s/n, but for gigging, I say it doesn't matter.

 

[SonicKeysII]

The Alto 408 does not have a trim control.  Maybe, if it did, I would have found the sweet spot as you have suggested.  I am still not a fan of using the mic on switch even though I might be wrong in that regard.  As for mixers, I have several sitting in my basement.  They are just another piece of gear I am looking to avoid taking to the gig.  I used to bring my Allen & Heath mixer to the gig and it is excellent but big and heavy.  I would rather leave it in my basement.  The funny thing is that my Roland VR-09 has a gain knob in addition to a volume control which can substantially boast the gain as well as the volume when necessary without any noticeable clipping.  And if I want to intentionally overdrive it for rock organ, it works like a charm.  

 

Thank you for the education on the electronics.  It is helpful.  

 

 

 

 

[Reezekeys]

20 minutes ago, SonicKeysII said:

The Alto 408 does not have a trim control.

 

This is what I'm calling a "trim" - as in the typical "input trim" you see on a mixer. The Alto TS408 does have it. It's a level control. On a mixer of course you have a channel fader, and the trim knob is used to adjust the level that hits the mixer circuitry before the fader, in order to maximize the s/n ratio. The principal is the same. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[SonicKeysII]

Ok.  I admit it.  I am more confused than ever.  In my simplistic world, the trim knob at the top of any mixer channel, helps increase the gain or so I believe.  If that feature is missing from a powered monitor and the output coming from the keyboard is low by the design of the keyboard, that is the problem as I see it.  I view the knobs on the back of the 408 as volume controls and nothing else.  

 

I am guessing that my Alto 408 or a pair if I buy a second one will have plenty of volume if I run them through a mixer and the keyboard gain is increased by playing with the trim knobs at the top of the mixer.   In this example, the keyboard would go to the mixer first and then out to the speakers.  The gain staging would take place at the mixer level and the speakers would receive a hotter signal and produce more volume without having to trip the mic switch.  In this example, the mixer would send signals to both the monitors and the FOH.  There could be secondary gain staging at the FOH level but it might be unnecessary.  As an added benefit, if I ran a mic through the mixer, the quality of the mic pre-amps might be better quality than the ones used on the Alto.  Don't know.  

 

Your work around is to flip the mic switch and be done with it.  I hear you.  Need to spend more time playing with it and see what works in my mind.  When playing piano, I like a very clean sound.  In my one try at doing this under stressful playing out conditions with no time to do a dress rehearsal on a new piece of gear, I did not like what I heard and went to plan B.  When I did not flip the mic switch on, I had to turn the volume up full throttle and that was not sufficient.  In addition, I have learned never to turn up an amp past 2 o'clock ever.  When I tried playing around with the mic switch, the sound was not clean.  Of course, I was given an hour to set up and play with a horn band and did not have sufficient time to really fool around with it.  The soundman, who is a friend, offered me a simple solution and I took it with little time to spare.  He was busy trying to get everyone set up and working properly.  

 

Once I have time, I will experiment and see what works.  In the meantime, I am waiting for NAMM in January to see what new stuff comes out.  By then, hopefully I will understand more about what I am doing right or wrong.  I don't want to spend a lot of money on new gear that does not work or play well in the sandbox with my other gear.  If it is me, that is one thing.  If it is the gear, that is another.