Audio Interface for Mainstage - need answer fast!

[BluMunk]

I need to order a USB interface today to arrive asap. Requirements are:

 

Two 1/4 outputs

don’t care about audio inputs

MIDI I/O

 

Should work with Intel Macs as well as new Mx Macs

 

This is for getting Midi into and audio out of Mainstage only.

 

 

[BluMunk]

Also, I’m looking to spend the least amount of money I can. In the future this will sit in my “bag of emergency backup devices.”

[ElmerJFudd]

MOTU is always good about OSX drivers and were one of the first ready with M1.  
 

M2 looks like their base 2 in/ 2out with 5pin model. $199.95 
 

[KuruPrionz]

1 minute ago, ElmerJFudd said:

MOTU is always good about OSX drivers and were one of the first ready with M1.  

MOTU gear is always good quality as well. I love my M6, sounds like a bit much for BluMunk's needs so he could go smaller. 

I don't know who offers a MIDI only box with audio outs. 

[BluMunk]

Heh. This thread is actually me having to replace a 5 year old MOTU ultralite mk4 that is having some serious issues.

 

I like MOTU’s software, but am feeling a little gun shy as this is the second motu device I’ve had that has started flaking out on me after relatively light use.

[ElmerJFudd]

I find the same with most other manufacturers base models in the lowest price range. 

[D. Gauss]

https://www.amazon.com/Behringer-UMC204HD-BEHRINGER/dp/B00QHURLCW/ref=asc_df_B00QHURLCW/?tag=&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312193478571&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13841923846404462961&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9003562&hvtargid=pla-365069377813&ref=&adgrpid=61623488145&th=1

[Iconoclast]

Do you need the 5 pin or can you just go midi over usb to your computer?  If you can go midi usb to your computer and only 2x1/4 inch outs, don't be afraid of just using the 3.5 mm jack on your mac into a splitter. Way cheaper than an I/O device. No one can tell the difference audio-wise...literally no one.

I have played many times through both an I/O and the stereo 3.5mm stereo jack and found no discernable difference.  I usually play through an I/O device but that's because my rig is usually more complicated than that (I either run multiple keyboards or I run my Nord back through Mainstage as a separate channel strip.

But when I play with a USB controller only (SL88) I just use the stereo Y cord and no I/O device, midi over USB. Works great.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07K59CQ3R/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?_encoding=UTF8&aaxitk=6d6cac6cb90d9087cc3b6b0ef37468f4&content-id=amzn1.sym.417820b0-80f2-4084-adb3-fb612550f30b%3Aamzn1.sym.417820b0-80f2-4084-adb3-fb612550f30b&hsa_cr_id=4574585810201&pd_rd_plhdr=t&pd_rd_r=2a9cd1bf-c3b1-4490-91f0-7930668464a2&pd_rd_w=6ueMa&pd_rd_wg=a4yhA&qid=1699204389&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_mcd_asin_0_img&sr=1-1-9e67e56a-6f64-441f-a281-df67fc737124

[David R]

Focusrite Scarlett interfaces sound good for the money and are robust for live use. The 4i4 is the model with 5-pin MIDI I/O but if you’re willing to use USB you could probably get away with the 2i2

[Tusker]

22 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

Do you need the 5 pin or can you just go midi over usb to your computer?  If you can go midi usb to your computer and only 2x1/4 inch outs, don't be afraid of just using the 3.5 mm jack on your mac into a splitter. Way cheaper than an I/O device. No one can tell the difference audio-wise...literally no one.

 

Same experience here. Headphone outs on a Mac are great. I sometimes use a Radial USB Pro but mostly to handle ground loops...

[ElmerJFudd]

I also use the 3.5 mm out of my MacBook to a radial AV box to convert to two balanced XLR outputs.  One for my monitor and one for FOH.  I flip mainstage into mono using the mono plug-in, which is included in MainStage. 
 

I don’t have a lot of confidence in the constant plugging in and out of USB 2 Type B (printer port) used on audio interfaces and controller keyboards.  I feel that port was designed to plug something in and leave it.  Not for the road.  The Radial AV2 on the other hand is built like a tank. 

[TechEverlasting]

I'll second the recommendation for the Focusrite Scarletts.  I've used the 4i4 with lots of M1 and M2 Macs and MainStage with no issues.   Here's a link to the 2i2 which should do everything you need.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Scar2i2G4--focusrite-scarlett-2i2-4th-gen-usb-audio-interface

 

One thing to be aware of is that Focusrite seems to think it's a good idea to ship these things with the MIDI ports de-activated.   I believe you have to download their app and activate the MIDI ports, once that's done the interface remembers it. I returned the first one I ordered because I assumed the MIDI ports were broken.

[David Emm]

Focusrite user here, too. I just bought a new 2i2 to get features like the Air preamp. You'll only get USB-MIDI without a larger model that has 5-pin, but the little boxes are like Nords: red and highly dependable. You could do worse than a 2i2 in your emergency bag.

[zephonic]

I brought my interface on the first few laptop gigs, but now I don't bother. If you don't absolutely need a dedicated volume knob, the headphone out on your MacBook will work just fine. All you'd need is a USB-MIDI cable. Just my $0.02 YMMV etc.

 

For the price, MOTU M2 seems a solid bet, but I have not used one myself.

[ElmerJFudd]

36 minutes ago, zephonic said:

I brought my interface on the first few laptop gigs, but now I don't bother. If you don't absolutely need a dedicated volume knob, the headphone out on your MacBook will work just fine. All you'd need is a USB-MIDI cable. Just my $0.02 YMMV etc.

 

For the price, MOTU M2 seems a solid bet, but I have not used one myself.

Sure and if you do need a physical volume control a little mixer like the Yamaha MG06X costs about the same as an interface or a direct box.  Just go 3.5mm stereo to Y 1/4 cables.  

[octa]

Got a MOTU M4 last week and am pretty disappointed with the very low gain level of the line inputs on the back. The "mic/line/guitar" preamps on the front are working well though. Since this M4 will be most often used for a one keyboard rig it'll be fine, but an M2 would have worked just as well and the M6 is ideal with the 4 "mic/line/guitar" inputs on the back of interface, instead of front. -- When necessary, I'll bring stereo preamp or Radial J+4 box, to get those line levels up to a usable level. -- mainly just warning future interface shoppers about the line inputs. With UltraLite series you can raise level thru CueMix FX but this software isn't accessible on M series. 

[BluMunk]

Following up to say that I'm borrowing our sound engineer's focusrite to get through the week, so the crisis is averted for the moment. 

We'll see what the outcome of my tech support experience is with MOTU. It's out of warranty, so I may end up being out of luck, at which point I'll be considering what to replace the ultralite with (another ultralite, or something else with multiple assignable outs).

[BluMunk]

I know it's been talked about to death, but are people still enamored with the Key Largo? Overkill for me as far as ins, but maybe really useful as a USB interface with multiple outs for FOH and monitors? It looks like all inputs go through both MAIN and MON at the same level, but I could use the FX send as a separate mix (so, like, if I'm getting a monitor feed from FOH, I could put that into a channel of the Key Largo, and turn that channel's level to off but send it out the FX bus for my own monitor mix?).

[octa]

I use a Key Largo on pedalboard and it works well in all the ways you mention. Just didn't want to tear pedalboard apart for small gigs so bought this used M4, which fit my budget better than a used Key Largo, and Motu M4 is a couple of pounds lighter than KL. Motu may have another advantage as they say installing their drivers provide even lower latency than you might get on a class compliant device like Key Largo, but latency didn't seem to be an issue the few times I've used the USB interface on Key Largo. Being able to add outboard pedals to USB audio through KL's effects send is a very nice option. Key Largo has just enough gain for my gigs, but Motu/Sapphire etc. with their "mic preamps" probably have a little more headroom. 

 

For keyboard gigs, I'd rather have the Key Largo, for the hands-on volume control/routing options and built-in DI, with stereo XLR outs for FOH. But Motu or similar is useful as a remote recording interface also. Debated this a lot recently!

[ElmerJFudd]

2 hours ago, BluMunk said:

I know it's been talked about to death, but are people still enamored with the Key Largo? Overkill for me as far as ins, but maybe really useful as a USB interface with multiple outs for FOH and monitors? It looks like all inputs go through both MAIN and MON at the same level, but I could use the FX send as a separate mix (so, like, if I'm getting a monitor feed from FOH, I could put that into a channel of the Key Largo, and turn that channel's level to off but send it out the FX bus for my own monitor mix?).

Key Largo is great if you’re mixing multiple keyboards direct with MainStage as well.  If your setup isn’t that big it is overkill, yes. It’s also a class compliant audio device, so should work with Apple Silicon using the built in macOS driver. 

[erik_nie]

I need to mix my two boards and backingtracks for FoH and my Headphone.
Previously I used a RME UCX interface. Also nice as high quality Audio interface.
To change the mix I needed some button presses or use the totalmix app.

Now I made my own interface using two cheap mixer boards from a chinese webshop.
if you select the right Adapter (I have several that insert a hum), the mixer is dead silent and drives even my AKG K240 headphone.

 

I use a two step approch: First mix the backing audio and two board. Send this to FoH.
Use that same mix for the second stage to create my in-ear mix together with a stereo mix from FoH and the Click.

 

100% hands-on, small form factor, cheap, connectors at the right places. 

The amount of work is limited, the reward high!

Perhaps not studio grade, but sounds great live.

You could make something similar with the Macbook output

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

7 minutes ago, erik_nie said:

I need to mix my two boards and backingtracks for FoH and my Headphone.
Previously I used a RME UCX interface. Also nice as high quality Audio interface.
To change the mix I needed some button presses or use the totalmix app.

Now I made my own interface using two cheap mixer boards from a chinese webshop.
if you select the right Adapter (I have several that insert a hum), the mixer is dead silent and drives even my AKG K240 headphone.

 

I use a two step approch: First mix the backing audio and two board. Send this to FoH.
Use that same mix for the second stage to create my in-ear mix together with a stereo mix from FoH and the Click.

 

100% hands-on, small form factor, cheap, connectors at the right places. 

The amount of work is limited, the reward high!

Perhaps not studio grade, but sounds great live.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey, that’s a nice project fulfilled.  Using the 3.5mm on the iPad (or usb-c or lightning to 3.5mm adapter) you’ve removed the need for USB audio.  Nice! 

[mynameisdanno]

Radial Key Largo +1, even though it's excess to requirements, IMO that makes it more useful to have around.  It's become a real swiss army knife item for me in studio and live contexts.  

 

Your thought of using the FX send as a separate monitor mix unfortunately will not work; I believe the FX send knobs are post-fader (as you would expect for FX send use), so there's no way to have have a signal (e.g. click or a monitor feed from FOH) muted in the main/mon outputs and present on the FX send bus.

 

Most of the time I use the FX return (with the recessed FX mode switch set to mono) as an additional input for my accordion.  The FX foot switch mutes the return, so I can easily mute with my foot and unplug the accordion to save battery on the pickup system.  Works a charm.

 

I have a MOTU M2 in my office I use just for listening, it sounds good but sometimes it needs to be rebooted after a few days for some reason.  Probably not an issue in gig environments but it still gives me pause.

[ElmerJFudd]

Plus the Key Largo also excellent construction - as with the AV2 Di and all their boxes.  

[zephonic]

Just my $0.02, I am not super impressed with class compliant USB interfaces at low buffers. I'm told it's getting better, but IME you shouldn't try at anything lower than 256, and usually they default to 512.

 

 

This doesn't bother everybody, of course, but I guess I'm OCD like that. I can make 256 work if needed, but 512 is no bueno for me.

 

[Reezekeys]

43 minutes ago, zephonic said:

Just my $0.02, I am not super impressed with class compliant USB interfaces at low buffers. I'm told it's getting better, but IME you shouldn't try at anything lower than 256, and usually they default to 512.

 

What are the issues you've experienced with class compliant USB interfaces at low buffers?

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

 

What are the issues you've experienced with class compliant USB interfaces at low buffers?

No way to know until you plug it in and push that buffer down. MainStage runs pretty well with the stock audio chipset on Mac motherboards.  

[zephonic]

3 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

What are the issues you've experienced with class compliant USB interfaces at low buffers?

 

It ranges from acceptable to unusable at 128. How is it for you?

[Reezekeys]

I asked about the specific issues you were seeing. Clicks & pops, stuff like that I take it? You didn't specify. Assuming that's what you meant, I've always known those symptoms to be "buffer underruns", where the processor has too much to do in a DAW or VI hosting app, and can't make the time to keep audio data flowing to the output buffer to avoid interruptions – thus the eternal advice to raise the buffer size. I never knew this issue was exacerbated by using class-compliant audio interfaces as opposed to those with custom drivers (or built-in audio). Is this common knowledge? If so, I missed it.

 

I don't record acoustic instruments at home, just VIs all in the box, and my gigs are the same - but in all my years of doing this, my experience is that the only audio interface where I used a custom driver (MOTU MicroBook IIc) is the one that screwed up and pushed me to switch to my computer's built-in headphone jack - where I've had zero issues. I was at a 128 sample buffer in my late-2013 MacBook Pro and sometimes pushed it to 256 when a fairly involved Plogue Bidule setup caused some minor "snats" in the audio. I keep my buffer at 128 on my new 15" MacBook Air with M2 chip, and see much less processor usage so I could probably go to 64 and maybe even 32, but as I'm 100% comfortable with 128 I'll just leave it there and let my M2 processor loaf along.

 

I'm not claiming the MOTU's custom audio driver is why I had issues - it might be OS related, or even a defective interface (the problem was that it would lose its connection to the laptop). Truth be told I haven't tried it with my new Air so maybe it would work OK - however as I've got my setup where the single stereo output works for me, I see no point in taking any chances by using the MOTU again.

 

I currently have two other class-compliant interfaces - a cheap $9 USB "sound card" thingy that plugs directly into a USB port, and a Peavey USB DI box. Both rather atypical of what most musicians might be using, so you can take this data point with a grain of salt - but again, in my brief experience using them with my new Air, they both worked and sounded fine. If I get a little time maybe I'll try them with reduced buffer settings and see if that has an effect on their usability.

[zephonic]

4 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

I asked about the specific issues you were seeing. Clicks & pops, stuff like that I take it?

 

Yup, pretty much.

 

4 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

I never knew this issue was exacerbated by using class-compliant audio interfaces as opposed to those with custom drivers (or built-in audio).

 

Not exacerbated, but also not better. It's about you'd expect from a one-size-fits-all approach, but I'm being told it's getting better. The world will be a better place once it is up there with the likes of RME, MOTU, Lynx etc.

 

4 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

I currently have two other class-compliant interfaces - a cheap $9 USB "sound card" thingy that plugs directly into a USB port, and a Peavey USB DI box. Both rather atypical of what most musicians might be using, so you can take this data point with a grain of salt - but again, in my brief experience using them with my new Air, they both worked and sounded fine. If I get a little time maybe I'll try them with reduced buffer settings and see if that has an effect on their usability.

 

At what buffers do you have them? Also, if memory serves, you mostly run Kontakt in Bidule? Kontakt is pretty efficient, although it is also library-dependent.

 

In my case, having layers of Keyscape/Omnisphere in combination with Zenology, HalionSonic, Kontakt and whatnot, 128 is too ambitious for many audio interfaces. When I use a Montage or Fantom as audio device, I'll keep GigPerformer's buffer at 256.

 

From the laptop's 3.5mm out, I'll leave it at 128, no problem. The internal audio is really pretty good with low buffers, and it doesn't sound terrible.