I want to replace my MOTIF with a lightweight, pro-sounding 61 or 76 key Piano, funky EP, B3, etc for LIVE-touring

[peacedude]

After 20 years as a Yamaha Motif evangelist, it's time for a change. Weight is the issue. My Motif which I LOVE weighs 35 lbs, but my back is getting older! My keyboard needs:

- Awesome, expressive bright rock piano (like the Motif) (no weighted keys)
- Funky rhodes, wurlitzer, classic EP sounds, expressive touch & convincing effects (distortion, tremolo, etc) with amazing samples, envelops, and more.
- Organ from rock B3 to fluty to "I'm a believer" and a few great clavs.
- Some natural instruments would be a plus, like accordion and strings.
- Did I mention EXPRESSIVE piano? I've been spoiled with the greatest Motif pianos and EPs. I have owned the Nord electro and Kurzweil PC4, which both pale in comparison.
 
Any recommendations? I would expect the price-point to be similar to a Motif. Someone suggested a Gemini module which I am researching. Thanks very much! I appreciate your suggestions!

[RABid]

Have you considered the Yamaha MODX6+ (14.6 pounds, $1500) or MODX7+ (16.3 pounds, $1700). I've been thinking about getting one to carry around.

[stoken6]

Yamaha YC61 should be on your shortlist.

 

Korg Vox Continental doesn't have a "full UI" for Organ, but might be sufficient. EPs are very strong. I believe it's now discontinued but worth considering second-hand. 

 

But you should be warned that anyone who requires both "Awesome, expressive bright rock piano" and "EXPRESSIVE piano" is traversing a highly subjective path. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[eric]

Depending on your budget, you could get the Nord Electro 6D (61 or 73 keys) or a Nord Stage Compact (NS4 is the newest, the predecessors NS3 and NS2 are still great).

[cphollis]

I find the newer Nord piano engines (NP5, NS4, etc.) much more expressive than their predecessors, so maybe worth re-investigating.  The NS4 with its per-engine FX is sort of next-level for me in that regard.

 

The rest of your checklist is standard Nord fare.

 

While you might think the NS4 is "overkill" due to the extensive synth section (not on your list), even if I didn't use it much I'd still love it for what it does with pianos and organs, much better than the NS3 predecessor.

 

I am not anti-Yahama, and own several of their products.  Good choices out there.

[Stefan011]

Kurzweil PC4-7 can do all that. Except maybe for the piano part.

[AnotherScott]

Good piano, EP, organ (and ideally, an assortment of supplemental sounds) in a lightweight non-hammer board... agreeing with and building on previous posts... I think the clear front-runner (especially for someone who has a history of liking Yamaha sounds) would be Yamaha YC61, which has (what most would say would be) better piano, EP, organ than Motif, with an extra plus of lots of easy front-panel direct access to modifying the sounds to taste. Biggest limitation would be you're restricted to 61 keys. (There's also the cheaper/lighter Yamaha CK61, but its organ is weaker, and it has fewer piano/EP sounds.) If you try the YC61 and aren't impressed by the piano/EP expressivity, don't dismiss it out of hand... it can benefit from tweaking the sound-specific velocity curve settings.

 

The recently discontinued Vox Continental would probably be my second choice. I'd say it's better in action than the YC (plus has a 73-key option), but is weaker in organ and interface, while the pianos/EPs would be a more subjective choice.

 

You could look at a newer Nord than whatever Electro you had (especially if they've come out with new piano/EP sounds since then), and the Kurzweil PC4-7 (same sounds as the PC4, but play differently from the different action), but obviously we already have a strike against these based on your previous experiences. There are some excellent additional EPs you can load into the Kurz (from Purgatory Creek), but I don't know if there's anything likely to address any shortfall you might have experienced in the piano department. And on the topic of actions making a difference, I think the actions connect better to the piano sounds on the newer non-hammer Nords than they did on the older (e.g. Electro 3, Stage 2). So maybe that will help provide your additional expressivity... but to me, they are still second-rate for piano (as non-hammer actions go) because of how much they keys push back. I think the Kurzweil PC4-7 action is more piano-friendly than the Nord semi-weighted's I've played.

 

[stoken6]

It's worth reiterating: the OP has tried and rejected Nord and Kurzweil PC4. They "pale in comparison" with a Motif. (Scott got the memo).

 

Cheers, Mike.

[CEB]

There may not be anything.  You want expressiveness.  Expressiveness is generally a product of good action mechanisms combined with well implemented velocity curves and touch sensitivity algorithms.    Good actions generally have some heft and your Motif already has you down 35 pounds. That Motif is a good piece of hardware.  This is probably going to be a sacrifice.  Whatever you get just play it until it plays you. It will take some reps.  

[yannis D]

Nord Électro 5 and 6 offers all that you require plus a good synth engine. Very lightweight (Nord bags are awesome and very handy to move), reliable, good hands-on effects (delay, chorus etc). Good collection of pianos and since you don't need a weighted action it's perfect for you. 

[drawback]

4 minutes ago, yannis D said:

Nord Électro 5 and 6 offers all that you require plus a good synth engine. Very lightweight (Nord bags are awesome and very handy to move), reliable, good hands-on effects (delay, chorus etc). Good collection of pianos and since you don't need a weighted action it's perfect for you. 

Absolutely this!

 

Second might be a YC61 if you could get along with the keybed.

[AnotherScott]

7 hours ago, yannis D said:

Nord Électro 5 and 6 offers all that you require plus a good synth engine. 

No synth engine per se, but you can apply some limited filter and envelope adjustments to its samples. From a synth perspective, there's also the absence of pitch bend, modulation, a mono mode, portamento. OTOH, the OP probably doesn't need those things. OTTH (third hand), his experience with some Electro model did not endear him.

 

7 hours ago, clawback said:

Second might be a YC61 if you could get along with the keybed.

Actually, for piano/EP, I'd say the YC61 action plays/feels better than the Electro's. (SW to SW)

[yannis D]

3 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

No synth engine per se, but you can apply some limited filter and envelope adjustments to its samples. From a synth perspective, there's also the absence of pitch bend, modulation, a mono mode, portamento. OTOH, the OP probably doesn't need those things. OTTH (third hand), his experience with some Electro model did not endear him.

 

Actually, for piano/EP, I'd say the YC61 action plays/feels better than the Electro's. (SW to SW)

I thought synth action was not the principal need for him (for a synth centric gig Electros are very limited as I can confirm myself). For the rest Electros are perfect IMO given the weigh of the keyboard and the easiness of programming and changing patches on the fly. 

But generally speaking, there's no such a thing as a perfect solution-compromises should be made. 

 

[Paul Woodward]

11 hours ago, clawback said:

Absolutely this!

 

Second might be a YC61 if you could get along with the keybed.

Or put up with the noise that develops/be willing to get it serviced…

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, yannis D said:

I thought synth action was not the principal need for him

 

He said "no weighted keys"

[yannis D]

6 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

He said "no weighted keys"

I meant "synth sounds" which I thought were not too important to him.

As far as the key bed action, since he wants light, Electro is fine IMO, but it always comes down to personal preference 

[AnotherScott]

5 hours ago, yannis D said:

I meant "synth sounds" which I thought were not too important to him.

Correct.

 

You had said Electro "offers all that you require plus a good synth engine," so I just clarified... it doesn't really have that... but also added that the OP probably doesn't need that anyway. 🙂

[yannis D]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

Correct.

 

You had said Electro "offers all that you require plus a good synth engine," so I just clarified... it doesn't really have that... but also added that the OP probably doesn't need that anyway. 🙂

I use my NE5 for a band that does some original stuff and 80-90s and I have to admit that there is always something missing. That's why I bring my mainstage rig along, for the shear pleasure to turn the knobs and actually hear a difference 😄. But in a less specialized band where synths are you average pad/lead/horn/strings patches, the Electro can do the job pretty decently. 

[ElmerJFudd]

Lighter on the wallet and the back, Roland VR-09-B or VR-730.  Yamaha YC61 might have preferable pianos if you typically prefer Yamaha piano sounds to Roland's.  

 

 

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Lighter on the wallet and the back, Roland VR-09-B or VR-730.  Yamaha YC61 might have preferable pianos if you typically prefer Yamaha piano sounds to Roland's.  

Not just piano sounds... the VR09 Rhodes sounds also lag IMO (probably organ too), but moreover, that VR09 action is terrible for piano. I haven't played the VR-730, which has a different action and some additional EP sounds, so I might give that more consideration, if 73 is preferred.

[Paul Woodward]

22 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Not just piano sounds... the VR09 Rhodes sounds also lag IMO (probably organ too), but moreover, that VR09 action is terrible for piano. I haven't played the VR-730, which has a different action and some additional EP sounds, so I might give that more consideration, if 73 is preferred.

Double the weight of the VR09 but organs are not bad, pianos mediocre. However, synth is great if accessed via the iPad app.

[stoken6]

Yeah, I found the VR09 acoustic piano "tolerable", but not the superlatives mentioned in the original post. VR730 has additional EPs I believe, but not more in the way of AP.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

Not just piano sounds... the VR09 Rhodes sounds also lag IMO (probably organ too), but moreover, that VR09 action is terrible for piano. I haven't played the VR-730, which has a different action and some additional EP sounds, so I might give that more consideration, if 73 is preferred.

Yes, the VR-09/FA-06 action and other mid and low-end Roland actions suck for playing piano.  👍

Krome, Kross, MODX, Electro, Stage Compact synth actions are also poor for "piano" playing, if not quite as bad.  Better synth actions on Montage, Jupiter, Kronos.  Did they put a decent semi-weight synth action on Nautilus?  

I haven't played the Vox - better than Krome/Kross?  

 

Roland's specs don't share the PCM size on the VRs - but it doesn't sound like the acoustic pianos are that deep.  I'd go for the 730 over 09b, but I'm not trying to get weight down to 12lbs (I don't own either but have played them).  As Paul suggests the organ and synth engine sound quite good.  Electric pianos are quite useful as well.   The Vox C does have "10.5 GB (in case of 48 kHz, 16-bit Linear PCM converted)i".  I'm going to guess a decent piece of that is acoustic piano.  

[AnotherScott]

43 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I haven't played the Vox - better than Krome/Kross?  

Actions are night and day. Especially if you want to play piano on them, where, as semi-weighted actions go, for piano, you're comparing one of the very best to one of the very worst.

 

50 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

Double the weight of the VR09 but organs are not bad, pianos mediocre. However, synth is great if accessed via the iPad app.

53 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

As Paul suggests the organ and synth engine sound quite good. 

Though again, synth is of no concern to the OP, so a strong synth usability isn't going to balance bad piano/EP which is one of the things he cares most about.

[Paul Woodward]

He didn’t say synth was of no concern anywhere in the OP. Let’s see what the VR hits:

 

bright Rock pianos. YES, as long as you want ‘cut through’ rather than subtle quality

organs. YES

Clavs. YES

natural sounds. YES, and they are Supernatural.

 

I had one, regretted selling it. Also had a YC61 and don’t miss ‘it’, but missed several key features all of which are covered by the CK61 for me.

I just got an A800 as a second board which has the same keybed. Will run the CK organs and synths, but I would grab another VR at the right price, it was just fun to mess around, especially when you use the editors to ‘open it up’…

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Paul Woodward said:

He didn’t say synth was of no concern anywhere in the OP. Let’s see what the VR hits:

 

bright Rock pianos. YES, as long as you want ‘cut through’ rather than subtle quality

organs. YES

Clavs. YES

natural sounds. YES, and they are Supernatural.

 

I had one, regretted selling it. Also had a YC61 and don’t miss ‘it’, but missed several key features all of which are covered by the CK61 for me.

I just got an A800 as a second board which has the same keybed. Will run the CK organs and synths, but I would grab another VR at the right price, it was just fun to mess around, especially when you use the editors to ‘open it up’…

Assuming the CK61 did not get the same quality synth action Yamaha put on the YC?  Or is it the same? 
 

I’m certain the CK is an improvement action wise over the VR 09.  I doubt the organ section is better.  But the acoustic piano is for sure. 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Paul Woodward said:

He didn’t say synth was of no concern anywhere in the OP. Let’s see what the VR hits:

 

bright Rock pianos. YES, as long as you want ‘cut through’ rather than subtle quality

organs. YES

Clavs. YES

natural sounds. YES, and they are Supernatural.

He listed the musts as pianos, EPs, organ, clav. And I'd missed the clav, so I'm glad you pointed it out. 🙂

Then he added the nice to have: some other natural instrument sounds, like accordion and strings.

It's true that he didn't specifically list everything he doesn't care about. 😉 But since synth didn't even make the "nice to have" part, I wouldn't think he cares about synth, or certainly not enough to consider it any balance at all for any shortcoming in his musts.

 

21 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Assuming the CK61 did not get the same quality synth action Yamaha put on the YC?  Or is it the same? 

 CK is not waterfall. I suspect it may be the same design other than that, but I don't know for sure, and I haven't played them next to each other. They do share the characteristic of having some initial resistance that goes away part way through key depression. And while this is probably more a matter of programming than anything inherent to the action, it also shares the YC organ's low release point (compared to the release point of other sounds).

 

21 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I’m certain the CK is an improvement action wise over the VR 09.

For piano, definitely.

 

21 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I doubt the organ section is better.  But the acoustic piano is for sure. 

Yeah, if that were the choice, I'd pick the Roland for organ, the Yamaha for piano. But if I had to pick one to use the "wrong" way, I'd rather play organ on the CK than piano on the VR09.

 

[Paul Woodward]

38 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Assuming the CK61 did not get the same quality synth action Yamaha put on the YC?  Or is it the same? 
 

I’m certain the CK is an improvement action wise over the VR 09.  I doubt the organ section is better.  But the acoustic piano is for sure. 

CK is a better board than the VR in most respects. Those VR organs are quite good, but the YC is no slouch either. Pianos undoubtedly better on CK. The CK keybed IMO is better than VR and YC. It's probably touted as inferior to the waterfall YC keybed, but I disliked that and had to have it serviced very soon after getting it. Noise started to creep back and it had this unpleasant resistance which was trying to make piano work more expressive, but just felt really sluggish. 

[Paul Woodward]

I should add that I got the CK reduced to £650 (refurbed from Yamaha, so treated as new). I paid just £300 for a VR with a case, pedal and stand thrown in. Had I the offer of the two at the same time, would have taken the VR as I have a decent stage piano. 

But, as @AnotherScott eloquently put it, the CK is the better of the two of you need all bases covering 👍

[AnotherScott]

Oh, I wanted to get back to clav. Of my main recommendations, Vox is strong on clavs, Yamaha not so much.