What's This Hip Chord?

[AROIOS]

I've always loved George Michael's cover of "Where or When", but never thought much about why it got me hooked immediately 20 years ago. Just came across it again today and I realized the tritone/lydian sound in the intro was dope AF.
 

The hip chord I hear in the 2nd and 4th bar is bB-bG-bE-F-bG-bA-C. How would you name it? I'm leaning towards bA13/bB.
 

[Btw, it could also sound like a bBm11 (bB-F-bD-bE-bA-C) but the minor quality is barely there]
 

 

[MathOfInsects]

Hmmm. That's not in a key but I hear it closer to B than Bb. I don't hear any tritone happening though, it seems like a relatively off-the-rack I to v-minor over I (or bVII6 chord/I). It's late and the track is quiet--am I missing something in there?

[Reezekeys]

This sounds like a rip from an LP because it's almost exactly between Bb and B natural. In the key of Bb, I would call this chord either a Cmin7b5/Bb. or an Ab9/Bb. Actually, I prefer the latter. If I saw that on a chord chart, the voicing I would play would sound closest to what I hear, and it's easiest to interpret - for me at least.

 

Based on past threads of this kind, I think I know how this is going to go now. The "THEORISTS" will have all kinds of esoteric spellings and they will of course all be correct! GO!

[CyberGene]

@AROIOS just a remark. When spelling notes with letters, as is the case here, the sharps and flats are written after the note letter and not in front of it, it’s easier to read. 

[BernMeister]

38 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

This sounds like a rip from an LP because it's almost exactly between Bb and B natural. In the key of Bb, I would call this chord either a Cmin7b5/Bb. or an Ab9/Bb. Actually, I prefer the latter. If I saw that on a chord chart, the voicing I would play would sound closest to what I hear, and it's easiest to interpret - for me at least.

I'm hearing Ab11 (i.e. add the Db - natural 11 or, likely in this case, add4) and you've got it. I'd play it as a cluster with the Gb on the bottom and f up on top.

[AROIOS]

Yes, it's quite strange how the song sounds a bit sharp (or flat 😃, since it sits in the middle as Reezekeys mentioned), it came out in 2000 and shouldn't suffer from any of the transfer problems common to old records.
 

MOT, the tritone I'm referring to is bG-C. Both vminor/I and bVII6/I you mentioned are perfectly legit alternatives in this context. It's the combination of clashing between bG and F, the tritone between bG and C, and the lydian sound created by bG, bA and C, that gave this chord a dreamy sound.

ReezeKeys, we're basically on the same track in terms of hearing an extended bA dominant chord in the upper notes.
 

46 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

Based on past threads of this kind, I think I know how this is going to go now. The "THEORISTS" will have all kinds of esoteric spellings and they will of course all be correct!

I always get a kick out of those "esoteric spellings" and would love to see what obscure Greek letter gets used this time. 😆
 

22 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

the sharps and flats are written after the note letter and not in front of it, it’s easier to read

Thanks for the reminder, CyberGene. It's an old habit from trying to avoid confusion on chord names (e..g  "Bb6", is it a bB6 or Bmajor with a b6? ). I'll swap them in the future when there's no risk of such confusions.

[AROIOS]

2 hours ago, BernMeister said:

I'm hearing Ab11 (i.e. add the Db - natural 11 or, likely in this case, add4) and you've got it. I'd play it as a cluster with the Gb on the bottom and f up on top.

I just followed the voicing you suggested and came up with a progression I absolutely LOVE on Rhodes. Cheers.

 

[CyberGene]

It’s a variant of the alt chord in jazz. The “alt” moniker implies b9, #9, #11, b13 and you have them all except for the #11. You can play a Cb melodic minor on top of this but it would better be spelled as B melodic minor:

B C# D E F# G# A#

 

P.S. there’s no major third though, so it’s a bit vague in your case and can also be thought of Bbm7b9b13 😀

[AROIOS]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

It’s a variant of the alt chord in jazz. The “alt” moniker implies b9, #9, #11, b13 and you have them all except for the #11. You can play a Cb melodic minor on top of this but it would better be spelled as B melodic minor:

B C# D E F# G# A#

Yes, it's definitely got a melodic minor sound. Although I would have identified the underlying scale as Eb Melodic Minor or its 4th mode, Ab Lydian Dominant. Could that be what you had in mind?

  

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

P.S. there’s no major third though, so it’s a bit vague in your case and can also be thought of Bbm7b9b13

Hmm, I'm not hearing the b9 (B) you mentioned. There's definitely an Eb, and we both heard a Gb, so it's more like an m11b13 to my ears (if we forego the slash chord alternative).

[analogika]

2 hours ago, AROIOS said:

Yes, it's quite strange how the song sounds a bit sharp (or flat 😃, since it sits in the middle as Reezekeys mentioned), it came out in 2000 and shouldn't suffer from any of the transfer problems common to old records.

In general, those were never „transfer problems“: the tapes were simply sped up or slowed down slightly until they had the right feel. Two or three BPM can make a groove in some cases. 

[AROIOS]

Just now, analogika said:

In general, those were never „transfer problems“: the tapes were simply sped up or slowed down slightly until they had the right feel. Two or three BPM can make a groove in some cases. 

Thanks analogika, that makes a lot more sense since all YT versions sounded flat/sharp exactly the same way.

[CyberGene]

2 hours ago, AROIOS said:

Hmm, I'm not hearing the b9 (B) you mentioned. There's definitely an Eb, and we both heard a Gb, so it's more like an m11b13 to my ears (if we forego the slash chord alternative).

Hmm, have you deleted a post? I thought I was responding to a question about what the fourth chord in your notation is but I can’t see that being asked. I had just woken when I posted, who knows what I read and thought but in any case my comment was about the fourth chord in your post above and not to your original question 😀

[jerrythek]

5 hours ago, analogika said:

In general, those were never „transfer problems“: the tapes were simply sped up or slowed down slightly until they had the right feel. Two or three BPM can make a groove in some cases. 

People often post music clips that have been slightly detuned to avoid the “copyright bots” that automatically flag uses.  

[AROIOS]

8 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Hmm, have you deleted a post? I thought I was responding to a question about what the fourth chord in your notation is but I can’t see that being asked. I had just woken when I posted, who knows what I read and thought but in any case my comment was about the fourth chord in your post above and not to your original question 😀

Ah, no wonder. I found the answer to my question shortly after posting so I edited it out. Sorry for the confusion.
 

Btw, I decided to call that 4th chord in the sheet above Abm11/Bb. Your naming of Bbm7b9b13 looks just as valid. It's such an ambiguous sound after all.
 

And I now understand why you had chosen B Melodic Minor for that chord. The notes your mind filled in the blank between Db and Gb must had been D and E.
 

I, on the other hand, am such a big sucker for the Lydian sound. The notes my mind filled in authentically are Eb and F. So plain ole B Lydian (or Bb Phrygian, starting from the root) would totally suffice for my ears.
 

Cheers!

[Steve Nathan]

To my ears, closer to B than Bb.  Sounds like simply 5-7 over 1 to me.  That the harp gliss throws a lot of notes not in that chord across is confusing, but I don't think it's more complicated than E F# A C# over B.

[MathOfInsects]

3 minutes ago, Steve Nathan said:

To my ears, closer to B than Bb.  Sounds like simply 5-7 over 1 to me.  That the harp gliss throws a lot of notes not in that chord across is confusing, but I don't think it's more complicated than E F# A C# over B.

Yeah, same on every count. 

 

[AROIOS]

1 hour ago, Steve Nathan said:

To my ears, closer to B than Bb.  Sounds like simply 5-7 over 1 to me.  That the harp gliss throws a lot of notes not in that chord across is confusing, but I don't think it's more complicated than E F# A C# over B.

Yup, v minor over I is where my guess went first too. But Gb from the harp gliss is too loud to ignore, and it immediately turned the v minor sound into a iv m6 vibe. That's why I mentioned Eb Melodic Minor in the discussion above.

And since Db fits better in this chord than D for my ears, Eb Dorian or Bb Aeolian works even better as the underlying scale than Eb Melodic Minor.

 

Who would have thought plain ole Aeolian could sound this sexy with the right notes (Lower 6-4,  Upper 1-2-3-4-5-7)? 😆

[AROIOS]

After a bit more playing, it's getting clear to me that the key (no pun intended) to this ambiguous and dreamy sound, is stacking up pretty much all the notes in a diatonic scale (tastefully spaced, of course).

The specific modes that work in this context are I Phrygian and I Aeolian. The voice-leading from their notes to Imaj7/Imaj9/Imaj13 is WILD. Now I know why it hooked me so strongly.

 

The mystery chord in George Michael's "Where or When" used the I Aeolian stack chord, and the intro of Marilyn Scott's "A Flame" used the I Phrygian stack chord in the 4th bar. Btw, the root in this intro is pedaled on V, call the stacked chord "V Locrian" if you want.
 

This trick seems to be an open secret among some of the best Jazz arrangers. Now we all have it in our toolbox. Cheers.
 

 

[Docbop]

But the real question is.... Do Hot Girls Like Chords????

 

 

[AROIOS]

On 10/1/2023 at 7:59 PM, AROIOS said:

...
The specific modes that work in this context are I Phrygian and I Aeolian. The voice-leading from their notes to Imaj7/Imaj9/Imaj13 is WILD. Now I know why it hooked me so strongly.

 

The mystery chord in George Michael's "Where or When" used the I Aeolian stack chord, and the intro of Marilyn Scott's "A Flame" used the I Phrygian stack chord in the 4th bar. Btw, the root in this intro is pedaled on V, call the stacked chord "V Locrian" if you want
...

 

Just got some more clarity over this hip sound. It's essentially just a chromatic movement between #Imaj7 (also maj9, maj13, maj9#11, maj13#11 etc) and Imaj7, or the 2nd inversion of it (root being 5).

The I Aeolian and I Phrygian scales mentioned earlier just happened to overlap with #I Ionian on the notes that constituted #Imaj7 (maj9, maj13, maj9#11, maj13#11 etc).
 

Here's another example of this technique applied in real world. The juiciest part (to my ears) of what Clare Fischer did in the intro of "Dancing Song" is exactly the 2nd inversion of a Imaj13->#Imaj13#11 movement.
 

 

[jazzpiano88]

On 12/3/2023 at 6:25 PM, AROIOS said:

 

Just got some more clarity over this hip sound. It's essentially just a chromatic movement between #Imaj7 (also maj9, maj13, maj9#11, maj13#11 etc) and Imaj7, or the 2nd inversion of it (root being 5).

The I Aeolian and I Phrygian scales mentioned earlier just happened to overlap with #I Ionian on the notes that constituted #Imaj7 (maj9, maj13, maj9#11, maj13#11 etc).
 

Here's another example of this technique applied in real world. The juiciest part (to my ears) of what Clare Fischer did in the intro of "Dancing Song" is exactly the 2nd inversion of a Imaj13->#Imaj13#11 movement.
 

 

 

Love the polychords and analysis.

Russell starts out simple and take it further out here (with his student's use on Stella):

 

 

[AROIOS]

On 12/4/2023 at 4:44 PM, jazzpiano88 said:

Love the polychords and analysis.

Russell starts out simple and take it further out here (with his student's use on Stella):

...

Mr. Ferrante is a master of hip chords. I used to drive on the Pacific Coast Highway playing Yellowjacket's earlier albums, it was pure bliss. 🚗 🌊

[jazzpiano88]

14 minutes ago, AROIOS said:

On 12/4/2023 at 6:44 PM, jazzpiano88 said:

Love the polychords and analysis.

Russell starts out simple and take it further out here (with his student's use on Stella):

...

Mr. Ferrante is a master of hip chords. I used to drive on the Pacific Coast Highway playing Yellowjacket's earlier albums, it was pure bliss. 🚗 🌊

 

Yes he is.   And it's such a pleasure to see him expressing such joy in communicating his knowledge.  

 

Notice his delight when he moves between these chords, which so clearly he has internalized in the repertoire of his  YJ's music.

It's no wonder he is a professor down there around USC.