Boards that integrate IOS devices

[CyberGene]

I’m also currently in research for a very lightweight 61-key board that can be worn in a backpack style bag, supports class-compliant audio (hence iPad) but also has internal sounds. So far CK61, MX61v2 are the only boards that match. Which one would you choose and why? I would also consider the Studiologic Numa Compact 2X although it’s 88 key but otherwise is very compact (indeed) and lightweight and has a matching backpack bag.  

[Paul Woodward]

6 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

I’m also currently in research for a very lightweight 61-key board that can be worn in a backpack style bag, supports class-compliant audio (hence iPad) but also has internal sounds. So far CK61, MX61v2 are the only boards that match. Which one would you choose and why? I would also consider the Studiologic Numa Compact 2X although it’s 88 key but otherwise is very compact (indeed) and lightweight and has a matching backpack bag.  

Can I also ask how you can identify a V2 MX61 from the original? Looked at the images online but cant see anything printed on the board itself.

[CyberGene]

9 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

Can I also ask how you can identify a V2 MX61 from the original?

https://yamahamusicians.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9811
 

Seems like you can’t really distinguish them as far as I understand (but V1 is only black, so with the other colors it’s V2). And the V2 supports class-compliant USB MIDI unlike V1. I’d also assume the same applies to USB Audio which certainly means only v2 works with an iPad. 

[Paul Woodward]

Apparently (after a visit to Google), if the manual says MX49/MX61/MX88 on the cover, it’s a MK2 (presuming its black). As you said, all other colours are MK2 and they released with the MX88. Now, if there was no manual……

[Jose EB5AGV]

If it is black, if the serial number label has the BK color code on it, is a Mk2

 

So MX61 BK xxxxxxx or MX49 BK xxxxxxx would be Mk2

[AnotherScott]

5 hours ago, CyberGene said:

I’m also currently in research for a very lightweight 61-key board that can be worn in a backpack style bag, supports class-compliant audio (hence iPad) but also has internal sounds. So far CK61, MX61v2 are the only boards that match.

also PSR-E373 and Korg Kross (2) which are lighter than either of them. Kross is lightest of the bunch. PSR-E373 has the virtues of being very cheap and having built-in speakers (though is the least capable overall, unless you're looking for auto-accompaniment, in which case it's the most). Also, the MX is the only one that doesn't run on batteries, if that might make a difference.

 

[CyberGene]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

Korg Kross (2)

 

Thanks, didn’t even know Korg had USB Audio interfaces in their (cheaper) boards. How good is the integration with an iPad? Like, for instance, on the CK/CP/YC there’s excellent four-zone MIDI master functionality and on the Numa X it’s even better, treating external and internal zones almost equally by e.g. observing the split point.

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, CyberGene said:

 

Thanks, didn’t even know Korg had USB Audio interfaces in their (cheaper) boards. How good is the integration with an iPad? Like, for instance, on the CK/CP/YC there’s excellent four-zone MIDI master functionality and on the Numa X it’s even better, treating external and internal zones almost equally by e.g. observing the split point.

I've never used it myself, so I can't speak to any possible gotcha's, but in general, Korg generally beats everyone else when it comes to MIDI functionality on lower-priced boards. As is typical of Korg workstations, a Kross combi supports 16 zones, each of which can be internal or external. In addition there are 8 banks of 16 Favorite buttons, and those buttons can also be directly programmed to recall external sounds (without even having to create combis to "hold" them).

[kanefsky]

3 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Thanks, didn’t even know Korg had USB Audio interfaces in their (cheaper) boards. How good is the integration with an iPad? Like, for instance, on the CK/CP/YC there’s excellent four-zone MIDI master functionality and on the Numa X it’s even better, treating external and internal zones almost equally by e.g. observing the split point.

 

This really is just a question about what the MIDI controller capabilities of a given keyboard are and has nothing to do with iPads or even USB class-compliant MIDI .  It would apply if you're using 5-pin DIN MIDI connections to hardware synths as well.

 

The audio interface capabilities have nothing to do with iPad integration either, since we're just talking about support for class-compliant USB audio that will work with pretty much anything.  You could just as easily call it "Android phone integration" or "Raspberry Pi integration" or "Chromebook integration."

 

True "iPad integration" usually means some kind of proprietary iOS app with specific functionality for controlling the keyboard.  That would be something to avoid IMHO, because more often than not those apps are very low quality and poorly maintained.  They're often used to reduce costs by eliminating built-in control capabilities in the hardware.  In 5 or 10 years the chance that the integration will still work with the current Apple hardware and software at that time approaches zero.  No such issue with class-compliant audio and MIDI support.

 

It could also mean a physical integration, which some manufacturers did back in the days of the 30-pin connector (before Lightning and USB-C) and when all iPads were the same size.  I'm not sure if any keyboards did that but there were some mixers and other devices that did it until Apple left them in the cold by changing the connector and the form factor.

 

[CyberGene]

@kanefskythanks but I already knew all that 😀 I didn't ask about explanation of what class-compliant is but whether that class-compliant audio and MIDI work well with an iPad because, for example, in the past people complained that the class-compliant audio and MIDI in the Numa Compact used to have huge latency when used with an iPad and in many cases you don’t have any control over buffer size, etc on the iPad, which might be due to default settings on the side of the class-compliant interface itself. As far as I know a later firmware update on the Numa reduced the latency. 
 

And when asking about iPad integration I don’t mean a special iPad app for keyboard control, but instead how well an iPad setup works. And no, I don’t mean to compare with Android or Chromebook because nobody (that I know) uses those for music. I am asking specifically for an iPad setup (to avoid people sharing impressions from a desktop OS where often special drivers are provided and that’s not the case with an iPad).
 

Have you used a Korg Kross 2 with an iPad? If so, does it work as expected? Low latency? No hangs? 
 

P.S. Well, yes, I didn’t ask my question above well, because I asked both about how well the Kross worked with an iPad, in terms of stability and latency, and also as a MIDI master controller where indeed it doesn’t matter whether there’s an iPad or any other device. 

[kanefsky]

Just now, CyberGene said:

@kanefskythanks but I already knew all that 😀 I didn't ask about explanation of what class-compliant is but whether that class-compliant audio and MIDI work well with an iPad because, for example, in the past so d people complained that the one in the Numa Compact used to have huge latency and in many cases you don’t have any control over buffer size, etc, which might be due to default setting on the side of the interface itself. As far as I know a later firmware update on the Numa reduced the latency. 

 

The post I responded to was asking about things like split points and zones, which have nothing to do with iPads or even USB MIDI.  Those are just plain old MIDI controller features.

 

AFAIK there's never any issue with buffering when it comes to MIDI over USB.  That could be an issue with audio over USB but it shouldn't be related to any kind of "integration" (or lack thereof) between the keyboard and iPad.  It would either be an issue with the iPad (no matter what keyboard you're using) or an issue with the keyboard (no matter what kind of phone/tablet/computer you were using).

 

I guess I would just rather see a word like "compatibility" used rather than "integration," because integration between X and Y implies some kind of special support that's specific to X and Y, rather than just X and Y both supporting a generic standard.

 

 

[CyberGene]

2 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

The post I responded to was asking about things like split points and zones, which have nothing to do with iPads or even USB MIDI.  Those are just plain old MIDI controller features.

As I explained in my PS, I just didn’t phrased it well and asked two questions: how compatible the Kross is with the iPad and how well a musician can “integrate” it with an iPad for live playing where setting split zones quickly, etc. matters. The latter question is specifically about the iPad because on a desktop you have much more software and DAW/host capabilities to control these things there.

 

7 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

AFAIK there's never any issue with buffering when it comes to MIDI over USB.  That could be an issue with audio over USB but it shouldn't be related to any kind of "integration" (or lack thereof) between the keyboard and iPad.  It would either be an issue with the iPad (no matter what keyboard you're using) or an issue with the keyboard (no matter what kind of phone/tablet/computer you were using).

How sure can you be about that statement? I’m not, which is why I’m asking. Frankly, I prefer opinions of people who tested the particular combination rather than people who think something should work in theory. Maybe you’re right after all but again, I prefer real testimonials. And yes, it can be the iPad’s fault but I prefer knowing in advance if it works with the Kross for live playing rather than which device/keyboard fault it would be when it didn’t work. 
 

16 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

I guess I would just rather see a word like "compatibility" used rather than "integration,"

Thanks, it makes sense. I’m not a native speaker, so I probably messed those two meanings a bit. 

[CyberGene]

P.S. And BTW on their website Korg mention about how one can use Korg Gadget and Korg Module on an iPad with the Kross but there are not many details, so I’m wondering if they mean any type of deeper integration (as discussed above) or if will be just simple MIDI as with any other keyboard? Any experience anyone? Since I own both Gadget and Module but haven’t used them much so far. 

[AnotherScott]

31 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

The post I responded to was asking about things like split points and zones, which have nothing to do with iPads...Those are just plain old MIDI controller features.

 

Yes and no. When looking at that list of boards that support audio over USB when used with an iPad, many of them have sufficient MIDI controller functionality that you could split/layer your iPad sounds right from within the board you're using as a controller, as you're talking about there. OTOH, if you were to use some of the others (like the Yamaha PSRs for example), the only way to split/layer multiple iPad sounds would be to do it on the iPad side (e.g. using an app like Camelot Pro, Keystage, or AUM). And in fact, even people who have lots of controller capabilities in their board sometimes still prefer to handle this aspect "on the other side." But this is really another discussion. 🙂

 

6 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

P.S. And BTW on their website Korg mention about how one can use Korg Gadget and Korg Module on an iPad with the Kross but there are not many details, so I’m wondering if they mean any type of deeper integration (as discussed above) or if will be just simple MIDI as with any other keyboard? Any experience anyone? Since I own both Gadget and Module but haven’t used them much so far. 

 

I have no experience with it, but I do have a Korg XE20 which similarly talks about that stuff, i.e. "'KORG Module' and 'KORG Gadget 2 Le' can be used to expand the sounds and functions when they are connected to the XE20" - but really, the XE20 has no specific support/integration, beyond the fact that a single USB cable will let you send MIDI out from the keyboard, and get audio back into the keyboard (to be heard through its built-in speakers, or anything attached to its headphone or line outputs). Kross should do better, just because it has all that MIDI functionality mentioned above, which the XE20 does not, so you'd be able to use Module/Gadget (or other iPad) sounds more flexibly (e.g. in terms of splitting or switching between internal and external sounds). But no, no "deeper integration" of Korg's app specifically to these keyboards.

[kanefsky]

1 minute ago, AnotherScott said:

Yes and no. When looking at that list of boards that support audio over USB when used with an iPad, many of them have sufficient MIDI controller functionality that you could split/layer your iPad sounds right from within the board you're using as a controller, as you're talking about there. OTOH, if you were to use some of the others (like the Yamaha PSRs for example), the only way to split/layer multiple iPad sounds would be to do it on the iPad side (e.g. using an app like Camelot Pro, Keystage, or AUM). And in fact, even people who have lots of controller capabilities in their board sometimes still prefer to handle this aspect "on the other side." But this is really another discussion. 🙂

 

I'd call that a simple "yes."    Just because a board lacks some capabilities that you might be able to overcome using functionality on an iPad doesn't have anything to do with any kind of integration between the two.  It would be like saying that if the built-in piano sound on a keyboard sucks but you can run a piano VST on the iPad then that means the keyboard has good piano integration with the iPad.

 

 

 

 

[CyberGene]

5 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

It would be like saying that if the built-in piano sound on a keyboard sucks but you can run a piano VST on the iPad then that means the keyboard has good piano integration with the iPad.

You’re focusing too much on the actual word that I used, “integration”. All digital pianos with MIDI can be used to control VST-s but some are better than others. And not only because of the keyboard action. Sensors matter, touch curves matter, presence of audio interface matters (if you would like to bring back the audio through the piano’s speakers), specifics of MIDI matter (e.g. sending 0 or 1 on silent press, sending MIDI off velocity, etc). Asking someone about how well a particular piano integrates with a particular piano VST is a valid question (although the word “integration” is not precise indeed) and focusing on the word itself is not very productive. Yeah, it’s all MIDI, so theoretically it should always work. But that’s not the question, right?

 

I appreciate you bringing precision in the matter but I don’t think it was really what I asked. I’m asking how well a musician can use a Kross with an iPad and I am asking people who have really used it.

[kanefsky]

2 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

You’re focusing too much on the actual word that I used, “integration”. All digital pianos with MIDI can be used to control VST-s but some are better than others. And not only because of the keyboard action. Sensors matter, touch curves matter, presence of audio interface matters (if you would like to bring back the audio through the piano’s speakers), specifics of MIDI matter (e.g. sending 0 or 1 on silent press, sending MIDI off velocity, etc). Asking someone about how well a particular piano integrates with a particular piano VST is a valid question (although the word “integration” is not precise indeed) and focusing on the word itself is not very productive. Yeah, it’s all MIDI, so theoretically it should always work. But that’s not the question, right?

 

I appreciate you bringing precision in the matter but I don’t think it was really what I asked. I’m asking how well a musician can use a Kross with an iPad and I am asking people who have really used it.

 

Those details are great things to ask questions about, and in particular they are all characteristics of individual apps or devices and should be discussed in those specific contexts rather than lumping it all together into "Kross with an iPad."  For example, how you are able to customize the way a VST responds to MIDI velocities is much more related to the particular VST than whether it's running on an iPad or Mac or Windows.  Similarly, whether a keyboard sends 0 or 1 on a silent press has nothing to do with whether you're using an iPad or another kind of device.

 

 

[CyberGene]

Not sure why you’re still not getting it 🧐 Nowadays, when people use an external device, they bring either a laptop or an iPad along some keyboards. That’s it. A laptop or an iPad. Two particular classes and the iPad is actually a very specific device, not even a class. Which is why the question is about the iPad because it has its own set of audio/MIDI hosts compared to the desktop OS-es and people will certainly encounter different challenges when connecting it to different keyboards that theoretically support it. You’re inclined on reducing all that matter to the general principles and while that’s the correct way of approaching it, it’s not the easy way for musicians to understand. It would be like someone asking whether a Ferrari is good for Alaska and you starting to give lectures on how it’s not about the particular car brand and location but tire compound, suspension geometry, earth climate science and whatnot. Yeah, you’d be right but you’d probably help zero people that asked for that practical advice. 

[kanefsky]

There are lots of kinds of laptops, so you'll get much better answers if you focus on more specific factors like what version of what OS you're running and what software are you running that's handing the MIDI data.  A particular laptop will be more comparable to some desktops than to other laptops.  A MacBook user would get more relevant answers from a Mac Mini desktop user than from an IBM Windows laptop user.

 

Even among iPads there are important variations like which processor, Lightning vs USB-C, and of course which VST(s) or other MIDI apps are you running.  An iPad user with Lightning would probably get more relevant answers from an iPhone user when discussing how to connect the devices together than from a user of an iPad with USB-C.  Someone using Pianoteq on an iPad would probably get more useful information from someone running Pianoteq on a Windows desktop than from someone running a completely different VST on an iPad.

 

The Ferrari analogy is good.  It will probably be very different for someone who lives and works in downtown Anchorage vs someone who lives in a remote mountainous region in northern Alaska.  If you focus on things like performance at low temperatures or ability to handle dirt roads or steep hills, then you'll get better answers and you can also get answers from people who live in other areas that have similar temperatures, roads, and/or hills.

 

[CyberGene]

5 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

Even among iPads there are important variations like which processor, Lightning vs USB-C, and of course which VST(s) or other MIDI apps are you running.

That’s true but in practice the iPad experience for musicians is pretty same across all varieties (including the rather limited number of hosts and plugins). Which is in huge contrast to the endless combinations of hardware and software when using a laptop.

 

9 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

The Ferrari analogy is good.  It will probably be very different for someone who lives and works in downtown Anchorage vs someone who lives in a remote mountainous region in northern Alaska.

See, you already start answering with concrete examples 😀 That's what I’m asking for. People from Anchorage who reply and people from the other part of Alaska (I’m from Europe, so my example was apparently not good because I am not very familiar with Alaska, never been there and I thought all of Alaska is the same 🤣)

[Baldwin Funster]

At the risk of being nitpicky, ipad compatible virtual instruments are never called VSTs. It's an important point because if you start talking with experienced ipad users you'll sound to them like a guy who wants to run Windows 11 on your Mac.

What is the accepted term? I'm not particularly sure.

"iOS keyboard app" maybe.

Not as neat and tidy as VSTi.

 

[kanefsky]

21 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

That’s true but in practice the iPad experience for musicians is pretty same across all varieties (including the rather limited number of hosts and plugins). Which is in huge contrast to the endless combinations of hardware and software when using a laptop.

 

It depends what you're talking about.  There was a huge discussion in another thread about the differences in how well Lightning vs USB-C iPads work if you want to keep them charged while using them or if you want to use a separate audio interface (versus the keyboard itself).  Screen size and processor might make a difference in whether a particular choice of software will run well on a particular iPad.  OS version might matter if you're stuck running a very old or very new version that doesn't play well with a particular piece of software.

 

21 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

See, you already start answering with concrete examples 😀 That's what I’m asking for. People from Anchorage who reply and people from the other part of Alaska (I’m from Europe, so my example was apparently not good because I am not very familiar with Alaska, never been there and I thought all of Alaska is the same 🤣)

 

Don't you agree that it's much easier to have a good discussion if you ask a more specific question like whether a Ferrari can handle a particular temperature or a particular road surface or grade than just asking about "Alaska"?  Even if Alaska was all the same, not all people drive the same places and you might not find many people in Alaska with Ferraris who have read and will answer your question.  Of course maybe there's some state law in Alaska that applies to Ferraris and other very high-performance or very expensive cars in which case you would want to ask about that specifically otherwise it's just too vague what you mean by "Alaska."

 

Alaska could also be a question about range and availability of gas stations since it's bigger than all but 15 entire countries.

 

[kanefsky]

3 minutes ago, Baldwin Funster said:

At the risk of being nitpicky, ipad compatible virtual instruments are never called VSTs. It's an important point because if you start talking with experienced ipad users you'll sound to them like a guy who wants to run Windows 11 on your Mac.

What is the accepted term? I'm not particularly sure.

"iOS keyboard app" maybe.

Not as neat and tidy as VSTi.

 

 

I think they're called "audio units" or "AU"s

 

Colloquially VST has come to be shorthand for "virtual instrument."

 

 

[ShadowMan]

Paul- I can confirm kanefsky’s post.  

 

On the MX61 I have a midi cable into a midi/lightning adapter feeding either an Ipad or Ipad mini. I have MX performance 01 set up so that Voice Category buttons 1-12 bring up basic MX bread and butter sounds.

 

Buttons 13-16 are configured for the Ipad Apps with the MX sounds muted.   These are also fixed midi send channels - so as long as you map the Ipad apps properly, when you select one of those buttons, only that app will play back thru the MX. 

[Paul Woodward]

I have a CK61 arriving tomorrow which ticks all the boxes for features and connectivity. Its a top board above a stage piano, and has a lot from the YC that I want so, with the Ipad sounds integrated, its really down to the quality of the internal sounds and the keybed while keeping expectiations realistic considering I paid around a third of the price of a new YC. Im sure it will be just fine, and if not I drop it back next week 🙂

 

Appreciate all the advice though guys. Thought it was better to get something new (2 year warranty) and that is likely to get firmware updates with new features rather than an old/discontinued board that might only cost a few hundred pounds less....