Going through the Big One (OS, all applications …)

[Sundown]

Hey all,

 

I change DAW versions as often as I change political parties (which is almost never), as I hate downtime and I’m a sucker for a clean install. I’m going through a BIG one right now, which consists of finally getting to Windows 10 and the latest Steinberg/Waves/UA suite. I’ve bought incremental plugins over the last decade, but I’ve still been running Cubase 6.5, Wavelab 7, etc. at the core. Needless to say, *a lot* has changed in ten years in terms of capability.

 

This week I installed Windows 10 on a fresh SSD, along with Cubase Pro 12, Wavelab 11, HALion 7, Groove Agent 5, the latest Waves release, and any other updates to things I own.

 

I’m not done yet, but I’ll post some learnings, headaches to avoid, etc. from the process. Needless to say, it wouldn’t be a Windows install if it didn’t require a Command Prompt window and some new learning. The best advice I can give anyone trying to do a truly clean install is *unplug any drives other than the target*. If the Windows installer even catches a whiff of an existing OS, it’s going to try and drop the OS there without your input (and do an update versus full install).

 

The other minor annoyance is that some of the Steinberg installers put the sample content on the C-drive, versus a drive of my choice. With modern RAM and SSDs, etc. I’m not so concerned about throughput, but it would be ideal to be given the option to place content folders on my Sample drive. 

 

I’ll post more as the process finishes, but I’m excited to experience the results. The bundled content and plugins have come a long way, and even basic capabilities (like Freezing inserts) will be new to me.

 

Todd

 

Note: I would have bought Windows 11 but my PC doesn’t qualify. I plan to buy a new RokBox within ~2 years.

 

 

 

 

 

[KuruPrionz]

It's never ending!!! 

I had my recording system installed on a laptop. It died a brutal death and I moved over to my Mac mini M1, which is orders of magnitude faster. 

You are correct about newer plugins, they sound better than ever. I've been deleting, updating and adding some new ones. 

I just updated to Waveform 12.5.11, I started with Tracktion 2.5 many years ago and it has continued to improve without changing the basic interface. 

I know it so I stay there. 

 

I'm also in the middle beginnings of learning how to create my own electronic drum tracks from scratch. I have the tools I need, just gotta dive in. 

Looking forward to reading your update after you get everything more or less sussed out!!! 

[RABid]

Went through the same thing with I bought a new Mac. Wow, had to jump through so many hoops just to get some programs to work. Mac would not allow my UAD Apollo software to run until I went through a bunch of steps to give that software permissions that I did not have to do on the older OS. Then ran through the same long process for two other music programs.

[Anderton]

12 hours ago, Sundown said:

The other minor annoyance is that some of the Steinberg installers put the sample content on the C-drive, versus a drive of my choice. With modern RAM and SSDs, etc. I’m not so concerned about throughput, but it would be ideal to be given the option to place content folders on my Sample drive. 

 

There may be a preference where you can alter the location. Or, you can use a symbolic link (mklink). You put your content wherever you want, and the symbolic link acts like a shortcut that makes your operating system think the material is on your 😄 drive.

 

12 hours ago, Sundown said:

Note: I would have bought Windows 11 but my PC doesn’t qualify. I plan to buy a new RokBox within ~2 years.

 

Your PC is probably too old, but Microsoft may tell you a PC doesn't qualify simply because TPM isn't enabled. My RokBox supposedly didn't qualify, but PC Audio Labs said they'd be happy to walk me through enabling TPM and installing Windows 11.

[Sundown]

Making progress… Drivers and core applications are in. I still have a lot of plugins to install, settings to tweak, and new features to learn. 
 

Todd

[o0Ampy0o]

I have done it countless times and every single time I have gotten into the process and either done something I cannot undo without leaving artifacts (one of the things I am eliminating by doing it in the first place) or I get an idea of a better way to have things or I get carried away and fill up the boot drive. Consequently, I have to dial up the simple and start over.

[Bill Heins]

Sundown, sorry I didn't get back to you last weekend...I forgot until last night doh! I've run Halion from 5-7 and only 7 shows now but all content is there...only change was anything older that had an update I believe Steinberg has set it so that older Halion use will change to 7 automatically....at least it does for me from 5 to 7. A couple of other items-

If you go to Steinberg Download Manager in preferences you can set where your downloads will go so you can set it to another drive if you want. You can delete the downloads if you need the room, it's just to make reinstalls quicker! I burn them to blu-ray as backup :)

 

If you go to Steinberg Library Manager you can set the default location of your Library files...for ones already installed you can right-click on the Library and choose Move to move it to the new location....you may have to do each one individually!

 

Another tip is to go to the VST Plugin Manager under Studio and you can setup both your VST effects and VST instruments folders. I created a new folder for each and created Manufacturer folders and move the plugins appropiately and have it all set alphabetically. If you leave it at your personal folders when you insert a plugin your personal folder will show rather than the default folder. Another tip is at the bottom of the Plugin Manager is a button that says Plugin Info or something like that(not at my DAW right now), if you click this it will create a text file of all your plugins seperated how you have them setup and also by VST2 and VST3...great for something to look at when your thinking about picking up that great deal only to find you already own it! ;)

 

Any other questions just post here and enjoy the updates and upgrades :)

 

Bill

[Sundown]

5 hours ago, Bill Heins said:

Sundown, sorry I didn't get back to you last weekend...I forgot until last night doh! I've run Halion from 5-7 and only 7 shows now but all content is there...only change was anything older that had an update  

 

No worries at all Bill. We’re all busy. I can confirm now as well that the 4.0 content is present with a fresh install of HAL 7.x.

 

Awesome tips on plugin and library management … Very much appreciated. 👍

 

Todd

[Sundown]

For the most part, things are going well. About two-thirds of my software is installed now. I still need to do Trillian, Ivory II, etc., but those should just be plugin installs that I can point to the original libraries. I might have a few effects to as well, along with quite a few keyboard shortcuts to set.

 

The one nagging issue I have is ASIO peaks in Cubase. The performance monitor is quite a bit different from 6.5 (even setting ASIO Guard aside), and it would seem that instruments are pulling more CPU cycles than my old setup. Initially I thought, “OK, newer plugins like FM Lab in HAL 7, Retrologue II, etc. could just be more demanding”. But I opened up HAL 7.x as a standalone and didn’t get the same CPU draw. Even with a totally blank Project (no effects, no instruments, no tracks), the ASIO meter is bubbling around. I attached a video to show it. Again, this bubbling meter is happening with a completely empty project. Not a single channel, track, or instrument…

 

I’ve ruled out a lot of things through trial and error, but I haven’t found the culprit yet. I’m running a tight 128 sample buffer with my RME HDSPe card (Multiface II front-end), but larger buffer sizes don’t seem to cure it. Again, when I run HAL 7.x standalone, I get really good CPU performance for an 11-year-old machine (Intel Core i7-3770K). When I run anything in Cubase, instruments seem to draw more than they should when played live.

 

Todd

[KuruPrionz]

I've been chugging away on a similar project, almost done!!!

Today I went through all of my plugins. I prefer to run .au plugins on the Mac but some are only .vst or .vst3 and some will install all 3 of those types.

My plugin re-install and installation of a few new ones is over so I brought up 3 windows with all 3 plugin types and I deleted all the duplicates (that have different extensions). Both the .vst3 and .vst folders shrunk considerably. Now I don't have such a long list to deal with, next step is putting my go-to plugins in the Favorites folder in categorized folders (Delay, Reverb, EQ, etc.). Then I'll be done for now.

 

Best of luck in getting your goodies up and running, this set up thing is the "not as much fun" part of our new freedom. 20 years ago, being able to record like we can now wasn't even a dream, it just didn't exist. I'm glad it's here now!!!!

[Bill Heins]

Another tip...now that Steinberg have changed their licensing if you ever want to crossgrade to Nuendo you'll wind up with both Cubase and Nuendo with the caveat that you can't transfer Cubase but you can continue upgrading both for as long as you like

 

I run an i9-1200k here and will still run into the odd plugin that bumps the meter more than it should but that's the crazy world of plugins 

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

[Sundown]

16 hours ago, Bill Heins said:

Another tip...now that Steinberg have changed their licensing if you ever want to crossgrade to Nuendo you'll wind up with both Cubase and Nuendo with the caveat that you can't transfer Cubase but you can continue upgrading both for as long as you like

 

 

Hi Bill. Thanks for the tip. Cubase does it for me. I’ve looked at the comparisons and there’s really nothing I would benefit from with Nuendo. My hardware can’t support more than 96 KHz and I only record at 44.1 KHz. There are a few plugins that are unique to Nuendo, but nothing I would really use. For film and surround I’m sure it’s the superior tool, but I’m just a hobbyist writing 2-track stereo compositions.

 

But it’s good to know regardless.

 

Todd

[Bill Heins]

I jumped on the crossgrade last year for "future proofing" 

 

Bill

[Sundown]

At this point I’m 75-80% done with installs. Most of them have gone flawlessly. One free plugin that I’ve used for years installed some bloatware, but I think I caught it and got rid of it. One other plugin (FM8) installed the 32bit version by default so I have to dive a bit deeper and get the 64bit version (which I had before). One thing that has changed since the last time I did a major update, is that every plugin vendor seems to be using an install/license manager now. You’re not downloading a plugin anymore, but an authorization manager where you do the install, activation, etc. Generally it’s not a problem but it does bring with it a lot more applications.

 

The biggest thing I’m fighting right now is this bubbling, peaking ASIO behavior at low buffer settings. If this was a totally new machine I’d be more in the dark, but since I had a perfectly stable machine before, I’m confident it has a specific cause and a fix. The Peak ASIO meter in Cubase will spike for apparently no reason at random intervals. And with even old plugins, I get some dropouts or erratic behavior that I didn’t have before. 

 

From a hardware standpoint, I moved to a motherboard-mounted mSATA SSD for my boot drive. That’s the only change. Beyond that, everything else is software oriented (meaning new OS, new drivers, etc). Today I’m going to go deep and flash my motherboard BIOS, I’m going to try a different video card, and I’m going to try turning off Hyperthreading (though it wasn’t an issue before on Cubase 6.5). If all else fails I’ll try LatencyMon to see what is happening in the background. I started using a DAW back in 2000 so some of this troubleshooting is just part of the territory. Back then getting low-latency, real-time multi-track audio to work was a balancing act and you had to know a lot of tribal knowledge. It’s easier now, but these glitches can still happen.

 

I did notice that my Marvell SATA controllers are on a different MSI-based IRQ than before (identifiable with a negative IRQ number in Device Manager), but I’ll have to do some digging to understand if that’s playing a role at all. I’m going to temporarily disable my Audio and Sample drives (my spinning drives) just to see if it makes a difference.

 

Intuitively I’m leaning toward a background service or driver being the cause. I’ve already tried a lot of different things to fix this, but we’ll see what today produces.

 

Todd

 

 

[Bill Heins]

Good luck! I remember paying by the hour for studio time...what a great advance the DAW is! 

 

Bill

[Sundown]

So here's where I'm at, and it's a pretty good spot.

 

I flashed my motherboard BIOS, I experimented and turned off a few more peripherals (a redundant onboard LAN device, some SATA channels I don't need, and a Firewire chip I don't need), and I tried my old/original Radeon video card. The BIOS flash definitely helped and addressed some basic compatibility/efficiency issues, but if there is a remaining culprit, it's likely my new(er) video card. My rig probably runs a bit better with the old/original Radeon card, but I love the passive, dead-quiet nature of my GT730 card. Right now I'm going to dive back into some projects and keep an eye on my system, and if I get some anomalies, I'll go back to my slightly louder card and eliminate the nVidia driver package.

 

There are still a few more optimizations I can do (and I have a few more plugins to install), but hopefully I'll be back to making music here in a day or two. Ultimately I would like my new software to perform better than my old (in terms of raw CPU efficiency), but that might not be in the cards. I'll settle for equal performance to get the latest features and sounds.

 

I have a lot to learn with the new software. There are a lot of new features, but the look and feel is quite a bit different than what I'm used to.

 

Todd

 

 

 

 

 

[techristian]

It will never end...as long as you are plugged into the internet . Everything will work fine and ,one day, a Windows update will pull the rug out under you!!

 

Dan

[Sundown]

1 minute ago, techristian said:

It will never end...as long as you are plugged into the internet . Everything will work fine and ,one day, a Windows update will pull the rug out under you!!

 

Dan

 

Well, it’s increasingly hard not to be, with the way licensing is managed now. But I do have Windows updates set to Manual, and when I’m recording I tend to pull the plug and disable the LAN circuit.

 

Todd

[KuruPrionz]

It's similar on a Mac, we get updates and sometimes older programs are left behind. 

I do my best to keep up and I've started learning the plugins that come with Waveform since that would only be one update for the entire she-bang. 

Apple does include around 30 plugins with the system and most of those are either useful or usable as well. Those always work. 

 

Others have come and gone, I'm working towards not using many plugins but I know I'll never be "update free" unless I pull the plug and just stay in one place. 

Which could be worse, it is amazing what we have now for recording tools!!!!

[Stokely]

Yep, regretting buying so many plugins from so many companies as 1) I don't end up using all that many and 2) it's just more stuff to update from different locations/different management apps.  

I did a huge mac update from High Sierra to Monterey and it did break a few plugins.  Logic also has had a few issues that it didn't have before, but mostly I've gotten around it.  I only intend to do updates to fix bugs, no hurry to get the latest and greatest.

[KuruPrionz]

36 minutes ago, Stokely said:

Yep, regretting buying so many plugins from so many companies as 1) I don't end up using all that many and 2) it's just more stuff to update from different locations/different management apps.  

I did a huge mac update from High Sierra to Monterey and it did break a few plugins.  Logic also has had a few issues that it didn't have before, but mostly I've gotten around it.  I only intend to do updates to fix bugs, no hurry to get the latest and greatest.

Yeah, I'm in Monterey and not planning to go upwards until I'm forced to do so. Maybe by then I'l have using the Apple and Waveform plugins down and the rest of it can go hang. I've deleted all my IK plugs except MODO Drum (will have a McMillen BopPad soon and it plays MIDI drums). Likewise, I'll keep NI Studio Drums, Drum Lab and West Africa. MT-Power Drumkit, Excite Snare Drum and Chao Gongs are all free plugins. I'll try them all on the BopPad and see what I can actually use. 

There are LOTS of free drum plugins. 

 

I do play synth, orchestral and piano/organ plugins with my Fishman Triple Play but I just use the presets, not much joy in doing the deep dive to figure all this stuff out. There are more than enough free options popping up that I can just switch to a different program and not worry about it. 

 

It's not difficult to get a huge variety of sounds out of one preset by using other plugins to alter it. If it sounds good, I'll use it. Not the end of the world if somebody thinks I should tweak all my own sounds. Who tweaks a Fender P-Bass? Hmm...