Rumors: Yamaha Montage successor

[ElmerJFudd]

 

Yamaha Montage M:

Sound

The 5.67 GB of preset waveform memory on the original MONTAGE has been increased to 9.97 GB.  The 1.75 Gb of internal user memory has been increased to 3.8 Gb.  This massive memory allows for deeply detailed samples creating impressive new sounds!

 

The MONTAGE M is the next generation with THREE sound engines included.  The AWM2 engine has been refined even further to provide high-definition emulative sounds like piano, strings, and drums.

The AWM2 and FM-X are now complimented with a NEW AN-X sound engine that re-creates the sound and behaviour of an analog synthesizer.  This engine provides the warm, classic sound and behaviour of an analog synthesizer.

 

The polyphony of these three engines has been increased to 400 notes (128 AWM2 preset, 128 AWM2 user, 128 FM-X, and 16 AN-X)!

 

The MONTAGE M is rounded out with an upgraded pure analog circuit that reduces noise and improves the dynamic range, crosstalk, low-frequency phase, and distortion rate, resulting in clearer sound at all volumes.  The sound has more detailed low-mids and presence than the previous circuit.
 

Control

The MONTAGE M8X (88-key model) features a NEW GEX action with Polyphonic Aftertouch.  The GEX action provides enhanced key repetition behaviour that is typically found on grand pianos.

The MONTAGE M8X action is elevated with the use of Polyphonic Aftertouch, which was a control feature that was offered in the legendary Yamaha CS-80 and DX-1 synthesizers.  It allows players to individually modulate held notes with additional pressure.

 

The MONTAGE M adds new performance controls with a five-segment ribbon controller, a new keyboard HOLD button for sustaining chords while using knobs to edit, and a Portamento on/off button and dedicated time knob.   These features all make the MONTAGE M even better when performing live.
 

All Model Features:

 

AWM2, FM-X, and AN-X sound engines

 

128-element AWM2 architecture for higher-definition sound

 

Pure Analog Circuit 2 for clear harmonic reproduction and even frequency response

 

7” TFT Full-color wide VGA LCD touch display screen with streamlined workflow

 

512 x 64 pixel LCD quick edit display screen

 

The super knob (or assigned expression pedal) allows the control of eight real-time parameters with one motion

 

9.97 GB of internal waveform memory

 

400-note total polyphony with 128 notes for AWM2 presets, 128 notes for AWM2 user memory, 128 notes for FM-X, and 16 notes for AN-X

 

3.8 GB of internal flash memory for custom samples or synth library downloads

 

Virtual Circuitry Modeling (VCM) recreates the sound and behaviour of vintage effects and signal processors

 

Send 32 channels and receive 6 channels of audio and send 16 channels of MIDI through a single USB cable

 

“Live Set” allows for easy organization and access of the most used performance voices

 

“Seamless Sound Switching” allows changing performances instantly without any cut-off in envelopes and effects

 

Modeless operation ensures all modifications to performance voices can be made quickly and easily

 

8 faders and rotary encoders allow deep real-time control editing

 

Integrated 16-track sequencer and performance recorder

 

Full metal chassis with IEC power supply

 

MONTAGE M6

61 full-sized touch-sensitive synth-action keys

Non-leaded Fast Spring (FSX) key action for a lightweight feel with the exacting amount of resistance

Channel aftertouch allows control over held notes

 

MONTAGE M7

76 full-sized touch-sensitive synth-action keys

Non-leaded Fast Spring (FSX) key action for a lightweight feel with the exacting amount of resistance

Channel aftertouch allows control over held notes

 

MONTAGE M8X

88 full-sized touch-sensitive piano-style keys

GEX weighted action with Polyphonic Aftertouch
 

Pricing & Availability

The recommended retail prices are as follows but, do bear in mind that street prices may be considerably lower.

Yamaha Montage M6: $3,999.99

Yamaha Montage M7: $4,499.00

Yamaha Montage M8X: $4,999.00

[Radagast]

https://yamahamusicians.com/yamaha-montage-m-specifications-and-pricing/
 

There was this passage in this story.  I don’t think anyone pointed it out.  I wonder what it is:

 

“It should be noted that this is not all there is. We think something else will be announced at the same time, but for now, we will leave that one for Yamaha to tell you about.”

[CyberGene]

Probably a firmware update for the MODX+ that adds the AN-X. Which would explain why they bothered to release a new MODX without any apparent changes besides an increase in the sample memory, maybe they prepared it for the AN-X but decided to wait for the new Montage first. 

[ElmerJFudd]

10 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

Probably a firmware update for the MODX+ that adds the AN-X. Which would explain why they bothered to release a new MODX without any apparent changes besides an increase in the sample memory, maybe they prepared it for the AN-X but decided to wait for the new Montage first. 

I’m not so sure.  It would seem based on the polyphony for each engine and the number of midi and audio channels over USB that each of these engines has its own DSP.  

[CyberGene]

9 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

It would seem based on the polyphony for each engine and the number of midi and audio channels over USB that each of these engines has its own DSP

That doesn’t necessarily mean they are different DSP-s. Rather less DSP-s or less capable ones. Which would also differentiate them better, otherwise the MODX+ would cannibalize its bigger brother. 

[jerrythek]

1 hour ago, Radagast said:

https://yamahamusicians.com/yamaha-montage-m-specifications-and-pricing/
 

There was this passage in this story.  I don’t think anyone pointed it out.  I wonder what it is:

 

“It should be noted that this is not all there is. We think something else will be announced at the same time, but for now, we will leave that one for Yamaha to tell you about.”

Perhaps it is the Genos 2 that has been mentioned?

[jerrythek]

4 hours ago, pjd said:

 

Good to hear. 😃 I still get crazy work dreams. I'm on a strange campus, I have to teach a class in 10 minutes, no PPT deck and I don't know where the classroom is...

Mine is the all-too-common musician nightmare of being late to a gig, unloading and finding all my gear is strange stuff that I don’t know how to set up or operate, and everyone is looking at me to get ready fast!

[Keyboardplayer]

A further disclosure by France's Sud Claviers: "The year 2023 promises to be great! You are expecting the new generation of keyboards: Korg Kronos 3, Yamaha Genos 2, Roland G90, return of Technics, new analog synth? A little more patience and you will find out everything on 16 Novembre."

 

If Suds Claviers knows the inside scoop, then this is very exciting news if it all pans out. A Korg Kronos 3 would be a huge development that will compete directly against the Montage M and consumer's money during the Christmas holiday if it's in stores immediately upon launch, as the Montage M will be. In fact, a member at the Yamaha Musicians forum who apparently has a real good relationship with Sweetwater.com said he pre-ordered a Montage M which he expects to receive by either Monday or Tuesday of next week. And he's getting it for the price of the original Montage. He also stated the representative at Sweetwater told him the Montage M7/M6 also have Polytouch.  If that's true, then that will make a lot more people happy and give them more of an incentive to upgrade. Although, if the Genos2 is launched on November 16, some people might go for the Genos2 vs. a Montage M since many of the features, functions, and sounds should carry over. Although I doubt there will be an AN-x synth engine on the Genos2, but perhaps Yamaha will give it a tone-wheel organ engine? The flagship arranger line is always priced higher than the synth/workstation line, so for the extra bucks you'd pay for the Genos2, Yamaha could have decided to up the ante.    

[David Emm]

I hate to sound like a dirty Commie, but ouch, those prices. The instruments are musically worthwhile, so no quibbling there. Its simply that being centered on a workstation has become just one among many choices and its sometimes too limiting. Yamaha's site says the new Montage offers pattern sequencing and Loop recording, but in my limited reading so far, it seems to stop short of being a mini-DAW as found in earlier, pre-Montage workstations. No sweat for me as a Logic player now, but IMO, onboard sequencing has become a bit of a white elephant. Let a killer synth like this be JUST that. Expand its sonic powers more and leave the sequencing to saner outboard options. 

 

I know that everyone has their own "synth journey" to take. I'm sure some people see it from an opposing angle. For me, the Montage is such an advanced form of life as a keyboard that the sequencer is a system drag as much as a desirable tool. Knock a thousand off the MRSP by axing the sequencer and amp up everything else on it. Yamaha's idea of an OS is my idea of a Gordian Knot, so I've never gone with their synths, but I do want to close by recounting the time I got to demo a Motif. M'god, its full of stars! I have zero problem in understanding how someone could marry that sound. 👍  

[David Emm]

39 minutes ago, jerrythek said:

Mine is the all-too-common musician nightmare of being late to a gig, unloading and finding all my gear is strange stuff that I don’t know how to set up or operate, and everyone is looking at me to get ready fast!

 

I had that one. It got even worse when I looked down and saw that I was wearing a see-through plastic jumper such as Prince required of his live band at one time. I was nekkid under it and the crowd was going "Put it ON, put it ON!!" I call it "Nightmare In The Key of H."

[timwat]

Completely concur, David.

 

'Twas a time that the main choices were between  a D-50 ("sound like God") or an M1 (realistic 4-bit piano! Built In Sequencer!!). I sequenced more than one entire church musical on that M1, learning 1) hardware sequencing to the nth degree, and 2) that I'd never want to do that again if I wasn't forced to.

 

IMHO the most important thing about sequencer choice is ease-of-workflow...and sequencing on a hardware workstation is a bit like spending time at the DMV compared to...well, just about ANY popular software DAW.

 

I wish I could do a DIY liposuction on my Kronos, suck out the sequencer, and lose 10 pounds of ugly fat. Of course, I was tempted to do that with a ShopVac and a needle on my excess stomach fat but "they" said that movie wouldn't end well. Phhhht.

 

As amazing as I'm sure this machine is going to sound, for me it seems too big, too heavy, too expensive, and features I wouldn't use. Wasn't made for me.

 

That begin said, I wish Yamaha good fortune with this latest iteration and hope there are buyers out there for whom it's made.

[jazzpiano88]

I might go for the polyAT 88.  

 

I think PolyAT could be an unrealized hitherto feature in the following:

 

Steve Porcaro produced a nice synthesis demo where he created a realistic string patch using the addition of several individually "indistinct" modulations where the sum of small pieces achieved his goal using an Oberheim Xpander.  That was his theory, and it kind of made sense.

 

Maybe the Poly AT with individual randomly arrived at variations will create something similar that sample-based patches or channelAT can't achieve.   

[Finale]

3.8 GB of memory for custom samples or synth libraries for 5 K$ ? 

[AnotherScott]

23 minutes ago, K K said:

3.8 GB of memory for custom samples or synth libraries for 5 K$ ? 

I think it's more than any other keyboard has ever had, except Kronos/Nautilus which uses SSD (probably by virtue of being the only one built on a standard PC motherboard).

[ElmerJFudd]

3 hours ago, David Emm said:

I hate to sound like a dirty Commie, but ouch, those prices. The instruments are musically worthwhile, so no quibbling there. Its simply that being centered on a workstation has become just one among many choices and its sometimes too limiting. Yamaha's site says the new Montage offers pattern sequencing and Loop recording, but in my limited reading so far, it seems to stop short of being a mini-DAW as found in earlier, pre-Montage workstations. No sweat for me as a Logic player now, but IMO, onboard sequencing has become a bit of a white elephant. Let a killer synth like this be JUST that. Expand its sonic powers more and leave the sequencing to saner outboard options. 

 

I know that everyone has their own "synth journey" to take. I'm sure some people see it from an opposing angle. For me, the Montage is such an advanced form of life as a keyboard that the sequencer is a system drag as much as a desirable tool. Knock a thousand off the MRSP by axing the sequencer and amp up everything else on it. Yamaha's idea of an OS is my idea of a Gordian Knot, so I've never gone with their synths, but I do want to close by recounting the time I got to demo a Motif. M'god, its full of stars! I have zero problem in understanding how someone could marry that sound. 👍  

Yamaha really wanted to focus on performance features and ditch “in the box” production on the first Montage in favor of pairing it with Cubase, Logic, etc. But a vocal percentage of users was disappointed and they had to at  least throw a sequencer in.  
 

I agree, the last thing I would want to do is sequence, edit, mix, etc. at a workstation.  

[ElmerJFudd]

2 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

I think it's more than any other keyboard has ever had, except Kronos/Nautilus which uses SSD (probably by virtue of being the only one built on a standard PC motherboard).

One can assume that this Montage will not have a boot routine anywhere near as long as the Kronos. 

[timwat]

Just now, ElmerJFudd said:

One can assume that this Montage no other keyboard ever manufactured under the burning sun will ever, ever have a boot routine anywhere near as long as the Kronos. 

 

Perhaps not "fixed" as we say around here...but my wish moving forward LOL

[David Emm]

The power suddenly went out at a local club and the crowd went "Awwww!" as the emergency lights kicked in. With amazing speed, several band members whipped out kazoos and played the theme to "Jeopardy" until the power returned and things rebooted. The crowd applauded with gusto.

 

Pure class, eh? 

[Mighty Motif Max]

54 minutes ago, K K said:

3.8 GB of memory for custom samples or synth libraries for 5 K$ ? 

Don’t look at Nord’s memory sizes then. 

 

But I agree, I would like to have seen a bit more there - 5GB would be decent if they’re really trying to expand the platform.

[stoken6]

15 hours ago, timwat said:

DMV compared to...well, just about ANY popular software DAW.

Nearly a German acronym: "Digitaler Musik-Werk" = Digital Music Plant (Factory, Station)?

 

(I will be shot down by native German speakers at this point, and deservedly so).

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Docbop]

1 hour ago, stoken6 said:

Nearly a German acronym: "Digitaler Musik-Werk" = Digital Music Plant (Factory, Station)?

 

(I will be shot down by native German speakers at this point, and deservedly so).

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

Timwat was comparing the DMV to a DAW.

 

Here in the US the DMV or some states the RMV  is the Department of Motor Vehicles and they are a well know pain in the ass.   You have to go there for drivers license, car registration, and related things.    Even with an appointment your going to wait and wait.   So  here DMV ==  Pain

[stoken6]

3 hours ago, Docbop said:

Timwat was comparing the DMV to a DAW.

Oh I know - my post was simply an attempt at (mediocre) humo(u)r. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Stokely]

That would be pretty odd to me if the only model that had poly AT was the weighted one (the one where if anything you might suspect they'd leave aftertouch off....)

As a user of a Modx I am used to the OS and I'd be interested in this, price allowing, if I ever go back to using two keyboards.   Without the YC organ it would need to be paired with another keyboard or else I'd have to rely on the ipad and B-3X again, something I don't really want to do.   One drawback would be if they keep the same pianos they had, they are terrible in mono and I'd likely need to look at a library like Epic Grand (and I'm not positive that's better, they just claim to be mono-compatible).   

If they come out with a white model like they did for the Montage then I'd *really* be tempted, the black one is boring.

[AnotherScott]

12 minutes ago, Stokely said:

That would be pretty odd to me if the only model that had poly AT was the weighted one (the one where if anything you might suspect they'd leave aftertouch off....)

 

It's possible that the amount of finger control you have for the per-key-AT might be greater on the weighted key than on the other.

[Docbop]

Commentary post.

 

 

 

[Keyboardplayer]

Well, the big day is supposedly tomorrow, i.e. October 9th. That's what everybody has their sights set on anyway. Btw, a Mea Culpa... I thought I looked over the specs fairly well the other day, but I noticed I somehow missed that the Montage M series does indeed have metal casings. They'll certainly be roadworthy versus a plastic casing, although believe it or not there are hybrid plastics that are basically as strong as metal and of course lighter. Yamaha certainly expects big name artists to use the Montage M on the road and on the stage and most of them have roadies to haul their gear. Do you guys and gals think the Montage M will be worth the price of admission? Unless Yamaha surprises us tomorrow with some extra features and functions not currently laid out in the specifications, the Montage M might be a hard sell the more I think about it. Both the M7/M6 apparently don't have polyphonic aftertouch, which is kind of sad for the eye watering price they command. I'm sure the M8x will weigh a ton (figuratively speaking) just like the original Montage 8. So if you're older and don't have access to a roadie it's basically set it and forget it, I reckon. No mention of MIDI 2.0 in the specs, even though supposedly Cubase 13 will support MIDI 2.0. Plus, even though the total polyphony is 400 unless you can combine the Preset and User polyphony and/or the FM polyphony all @ 128 each, then the total available polyphony at any given time will only be 128 no matter how you slice and dice it. That's so last century, needless to say. Hopefully they can be combined, so you can have at least 256 note polyphony available. It also seems apparent there is NO tone-wheel organ engine, probably because Yamaha doesn't want the Montage M to cut into the sales of the YC series. It's all about marketing. I'm sure the Montage M will sound fantastic in probably every instrument category. But is that enough? Depending on what we find out tomorrow, there is also rumored to be the release of a Kronos 3 possibly in November? That in itself might convince people to hold on to their wallets just a little while longer to see what Korg has up its sleeve. Although, if the MSRP's on the Montage M can be negotiated down somewhat, or considerably, then that changes things quite a bit.       

[AnotherScott]

17 minutes ago, Keyboardplayer said:

even though the total polyphony is 400 unless you can combine the Preset and User polyphony and/or the FM polyphony all @ 128 each, then the total available polyphony at any given time will only be 128 no matter how you slice and dice it. That's so last century, needless to say. Hopefully they can be combined, so you can have at least 256 note polyphony available.

Yes, that's how Yamaha's polyphony figures have worked... when you use multiple engines with their own polyphony figures, you add them together. So for example, on the MODX, there was 128 AWM polyphony and 64 FM polyphony. So if you layered some AWM and FM sounds, the FM sounds would have their own 64 polyphony in addition to the 128 polyphony available for the AWM sounds. This is the opposite of Kronos, where each engine had its own max polyphony figure, but layering sounds from two engines meant that each engine's own max polyphony would be reduced. 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Keyboardplayer said:

there is also rumored to be the release of a Kronos 3 possibly in November? 

Nah. See related thread. (Rumors start SO easily on the interwebs...)

[DmitryKo]

What happened to paragraph breaks?

 

11 hours ago, Keyboardplayer said:

No mention of MIDI 2.0 in the specs, even though supposedly Cubase 13 will support MIDI 2.0.

 

Cubase 13 may support the MIDI 2.0 UMP protocol messages internally, but connecting external devices requires native OS support, and Windows 10/11 won't have it until next Spring. Looking at the ADC22 presentation from Microsoft, Google and Apple, MacOS effort for updated CoreMIDI was only starting last Fall as well.

 

11 hours ago, Keyboardplayer said:

there is also rumored to be the release of a Kronos 3 possibly in November

 

(Sigh) No, it's just a playful teaser for a new arranger keyboard.

 

 

11 hours ago, Keyboardplayer said:

unless you can combine the Preset and User polyphony and/or the FM polyphony all @ 128 each, then the total available polyphony at any given time will only be 128 

 

It would be 128 notes, but still up to 384 hardware voices (i.e oscillators), depending on whether user ROM samples are loaded - so hopefully Yamaha does a better job with user sample libraries this time.

 

And if you layer several Parts from all three engines in one Performance, you will be limited to AN-X polyphony of only 16 notes - and that's totally fine, considering that analog synths were not really designed for fast pano-style arpeggios with sustain pedal engaged 

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

13 minutes ago, DmitryKo said:

What happened to paragraph breaks, a broken Enter key on the keyboard?

 

 

Cubase 13 may support the MIDI 2.0 UMP protocol messages internally, but connecting external devices requires native OS support, and Windows 10/11 won't have it until next Spring. Looking at the ADC22 presentation from Microsoft, Google and Apple, MacOS effort for updated CoreMIDI was only starting last Fall as well.

 

 

(Sigh) No, it's just a playful teaser for a new arranger keyboard.

 

 

 

It would be 128 notes, but still 256 to 384 hardware voices (i.e oscillators), depending on whether user ROM samples are loaded - so hopefully Yamaha does a better job with user sample libaries this time.

 

If you layer several Parts from all three engines in one Performance, you will be limited to AN-X polyphony of only 16 notes - and that's totally fine, considering that analog synths were not really designed for fast pano-style arpeggios with sustain pedal engaged 

 

 

If the DAW supports MIDI 2.0 and your hardware supports it, does core audio actually need an overhaul?  

[DmitryKo]

38 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

If the DAW supports MIDI 2.0 and your hardware supports it, does core audio actually need an overhaul?  

 

Yes, it does. USB-MIDI device drivers and related OS services need to understand these new MIDI 2.0 UMP (Universal MIDI Packet) messages and interoperate with legacy MIDI 1.0 applications and devices.