Behringer Pro-800: Stocking Stuffer or Suppository?

[David Emm]

I'm curious about how this one turned out. Any users here so far? I would have all but killed to have a pair of these back when I owned two Prophet-600s. I can build what the P-800 does with several of my software synths, but since when did practicality have anything to do with the great god Daddy Want? I heart tabletop synths.

[allan_evett]

They've been trickling into this market. I was waiting to pounce this past week, but the few that had arrived in Fort Wayne flew out quickly.  My sales guy is saying six weeks for the next batch, so I locked in a spot in line.  Have been wanting a poly-analog module for awhile now. Had been focusing hard on a Rev 2 16-voice desktop, but wallet reality says "Pro-800 + basic FX pedal"; so here we are.  Will miss the 2-pole/4-pole filter choice, but I have a MiniFreak - which has a luscious SEM-style filter. So for relatively low $$ I get to relive my OB/Sequential 80's rig a bit.

 

I had a Prophet 600 and Pro 1 for most of the 80s, and their overall vibe still holds a special place. I'm intrigued with the Gli Gli-style mod and more that's been added.  And I'm especially curious now, as well, about who here has experienced the Pro-800.

[Stokely]

I would have considered folding this into my live rig--for 80's style synths--but I managed to first get my Modx to "more than acceptable" on such patches, then bought a Nord Stage 3 and love the synth on it.   I'm in "simple mode" (for simple people!) with one keyboard and the limitations and conveniences that gives. 

At home I'm all software and I see no future where I start using hardware again (other than a midi controller).  It's not like software isn't going to improve from where it is, and I love where it is.

Long story short, this would have interested me a lot more a year or two ago.  Maybe if and when I swing back toward "more complicated rig is fun!" mode I'd consider this, though honestly I'd be more inclined to go up in level to an OB6 or Prophet (or Peak, I own a Summit and really like it, though it's not being used and I should probably sell it.)   I'm a thrifty person but I have a couple pieces of gear I can sell, and some gig money building up, and at my age I'm done with settling.  Right now the NS3 has killed any gas I had for anything honestly.  

[Jim Alfredson]

Please don't support this horrible company.

[David Emm]

2 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

Please don't support this horrible company.

 

I hear you. Their iffy builds and shabby behavior over time say "Unprofessional" quite firmly. Its a shame, because their Neutron design hits a good mark, for example. It would be nice if they released solid blends like Roland's SE-02 collab with Studio Electronics. Instead, I'm waiting to see how they handle the alleged CS-80 clone-ette, expecting it to resemble slowing down to view a car wreck. If that touch strip curls up out of the housing at week 3, people are going to scream like 400-pound chickens. Let's sample it!

[RABid]

A couple years ago I would have considered this but now my Jupiter X(m) satisfies my vintage analog needs. A used SH-4d is due for delivery today so portable needs with more knobbage is now met. What many do not realize is the Jupiter X comes with Roland, Moog and Sequential filters so you can dial in pretty much anything you want.

[Jim Alfredson]

4 hours ago, David Emm said:

 

I hear you. Their iffy builds and shabby behavior over time say "Unprofessional" quite firmly. Its a shame, because their Neutron design hits a good mark, for example. It would be nice if they released solid blends like Roland's SE-02 collab with Studio Electronics. Instead, I'm waiting to see how they handle the alleged CS-80 clone-ette, expecting it to resemble slowing down to view a car wreck. If that touch strip curls up out of the housing at week 3, people are going to scream like 400-pound chickens. Let's sample it!

There are so many better options that are not that much more money. 

[ElmerJFudd]

“Stocking Stuffer or Suppository”

😂 there is a very wide range between these two choices.  and, yet… I have to imagine if one were in need of a suppository, one might indeed be pleased to find a suppository in one’s stocking. 

[The Real MC]

8 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

Please don't support this horrible company.

 

I wouldn't even use their products for a doorstop.  

 

And I really despise how their army of fake owners flood discussion groups with ads disguised as "I got mine" posts or teasers showing a rendered image.

[jazzpiano88]

Can someone do an "out of the loop" style explanation on Behringer on the outrage of Jim and RealMC?  Or point to an existing post that does?

 

I know they make clones of classic gear and people despise their use of use of the associated expired IP, but I haven't gone beyond this factor.   Clearly there has to be more, given the widespread emulation of the Hammond Organ that is welcomed and embraced.

 

 

[allan_evett]

1 hour ago, Jim Alfredson said:

There are so many better options that are not that much more money. 

 

My reasoning for the Pro 800 is simple teaching tool for the few people that want to tweak knobs and learn basic synthesis - on a polyphonic instrument. And preference is analog.  Also a cheap pricepoint is ideal, in that I don't want to sustain a significant loss if the instrument up and 'walks' from my teaching space. Security is a concern there.  I've alternately considered the Minilogue XD desktop; could probably live with four voices.  What other options, fitting my criteria, would you suggest?  

[Jim Alfredson]

2 hours ago, JazzPiano88 said:

Can someone do an "out of the loop" style explanation on Behringer on the outrage of Jim and RealMC?  Or point to an existing post that does?

 

They lie and they try to character assassinate reviewers who give their products bad reviews. The latest example is just a few weeks ago. On their social media, they claimed that loopop (a highly respected synth reviewer on YouTube) doesn't review their synths because they don't give out freebies. He replied saying that wasn't true at all, that he had reviewed their synths before but decided not to review them anymore due to his own ethical concerns about the company, and that he has emails from them offering him free synths.

 

They sued Dave Smith Instruments because one of DSI's employees made what they considered disparaging comments about their products on GearSpace, even though he wasn't acting as an employee of DSI at the time; he was at home, in his off-hours, talking to people on the internet, like you and me are doing right now. 

The most egregious might be their attack on journalist Peter Kirn, in which they posted an image of a fake product called the Cork Sniffer with a caricature of Kirn on it, a highly insulting drawing that many considered anti-Semitic, all because he didn't like one of their products.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/wxe7qx/a-major-synth-company-created-this-fake-product-to-attack-a-journalist

 

And then there is the part about how Uli made all his money blatantly ripping off other products. And not just old stuff like vintage synth designs, but new designs from small companies that don't have the financial resources to challenge them in court. These days, it's mainly small Eurorack module makers. In the past it was guitar pedal makers and such.

 

They are a shitty company. 

2 hours ago, allan_evett said:

 

My reasoning for the Pro 800 is simple teaching tool for the few people that want to tweak knobs and learn basic synthesis - on a polyphonic instrument. And preference is analog.  Also a cheap pricepoint is ideal, in that I don't want to sustain a significant loss if the instrument up and 'walks' from my teaching space. Security is a concern there.  I've alternately considered the Minilogue XD desktop; could probably live with four voices.  What other options, fitting my criteria, would you suggest?  

 

A used 8 voice Korg Prologue can be had for around $700. Yes, it's almost double the Pro 800, but it's a much better synth and is honestly one of the most underrated analogs on the market right now.

[dazzjazz]

Buy a used JX8P and put the KIWI mod in it. It’s fabulous!

[jazzpiano88]

55 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

They lie and they try to character assassinate reviewers who give their products bad reviews. The latest example is just a few weeks ago. On their social media, they claimed that loopop (a highly respected synth reviewer on YouTube) doesn't review their synths because they don't give out freebies. He replied saying that wasn't true at all, that he had reviewed their synths before but decided not to review them anymore due to his own ethical concerns about the company, and that he has emails from them offering him free synths.

 

They sued Dave Smith Instruments because one of DSI's employees made what they considered disparaging comments about their products on GearSpace, even though he wasn't acting as an employee of DSI at the time; he was at home, in his off-hours, talking to people on the internet, like you and me are doing right now. 

The most egregious might be their attack on journalist Peter Kirn, in which they posted an image of a fake product called the Cork Sniffer with a caricature of Kirn on it, a highly insulting drawing that many considered anti-Semitic, all because he didn't like one of their products.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/wxe7qx/a-major-synth-company-created-this-fake-product-to-attack-a-journalist

 

And then there is the part about how Uli made all his money blatantly ripping off other products. And not just old stuff like vintage synth designs, but new designs from small companies that don't have the financial resources to challenge them in court. These days, it's mainly small Eurorack module makers. In the past it was guitar pedal makers and such.

 

They are a shitty company.

 

Thanks for this info Jim!

[Jim Alfredson]

48 minutes ago, dazzjazz said:

Buy a used JX8P and put the KIWI mod in it. It’s fabulous!

Another great option. Or the JX3p. Very reasonably priced and better than the Juno in many ways.

[The Real MC]

5 hours ago, JazzPiano88 said:

Can someone do an "out of the loop" style explanation on Behringer on the outrage of Jim and RealMC?  Or point to an existing post that does?

 

Jim covered how they sue their critics and how they have a long history of chronic plagiarism ripping off other companies' designs.  They made very few original designs.

I saw the schematic for their minimoog clone.  They copied the oscillator board component by component, including the design flaw that causes tuning problems.  I had refused to disclose the flaw online because Behringer will get no help from me.

The other outrage is their non-existent service support.  Plenty of service shops stopped accepting Behringer products for repair (even warranty) because Behringer slow-walked or never reimbursed labor charges for repair work.  Behringer products have a poor reliability history and when they sent replacement parts to service shops the parts were defective.  Retail stores have found broken Behringer gear brand new out of the box.  Because no one will repair them, retail stores will not accept used Behringer gear for consignment.  Plenty of used Behringer gear sits unsold on auction and classified sites.  Used Behringer gear has been worthless.

There's a professional gear repair group on Facebook.  Recently a Behringer synth owner sought repair advice.  These techs hate Behringer with a passion.  They had warned everybody of their poor quality gear and had been demonized by the Behringer character assassination trolls.  Now they came crying for help and the techs blasted them, no one would not offer repair advice.  The character assassination trolls even tried to intervene and the techs ripped them a new one.  The vitriol from the techs was pretty bad.  The thread did not stay up very long.

So when (not if) your Behringer breaks, good luck finding anyone to repair it.

[Jim Alfredson]

1 hour ago, The Real MC said:

There's a professional gear repair group on Facebook.  Recently a Behringer synth owner sought repair advice.  These techs hate Behringer with a passion.  They had warned everybody of their poor quality gear and had been demonized by the Behringer character assassination trolls.  Now they came crying for help and the techs blasted them, no one would not offer repair advice.  The character assassination trolls even tried to intervene and the techs ripped them a new one.  The vitriol from the techs was pretty bad.  The thread did not stay up very long.

 

I saw that thread but didn't keep up with it. I didn't know it got so heated, but I'm not surprised. 

I will admit, despite my loathing of the company, I considered getting their MonoPoly clone. I only considered it for a week or so, but I did consider it. Then I played it at Sweetwater. It felt like a toy. Cheap keybed, cheap knobs, cheap switches, thin sound, shitty filter... the list goes on. That really ended any lingering possibility that I will ever purchase their gear or any of the brands they own. Fuck 'em.

[CyberGene]

I bought the Behringer Model D for €250. It’s still in great shape and sounds exactly like a Minimoog. If it broke, I’d throw it away and purchase another one, not sure why I would bother with repairs. The Minimoog reissue costs €6000. So, I can purchase 24 Boogs for the price of it. Let’s cut the cr*p about what repair guys or snobs say about Behringer. Yeah, they rip the designs of 50 year old synths whose companies went into bankruptcy long ago and if it wasn’t for cheap modern replicas like Behringer there wouldn’t be the analog synth revival. Let’s face it, almost nobody can purchase ridiculously priced vintage Minimoogs and there aren’t enough of them anyway. 

[Artomas]

Behringer Swing, Crave, and Edge copy the Arturia Keystep, Moog Mother-32 and DFAM. I don't know if it's related, but I think, from here on out, we will see less R&D from Moog, than during the period that gave us M32 and DFAM, among other synths. It's possible that very few of the people who bought the Behringer versions would've bought the Moogs instead. Many of the Behringer customers couldn't afford to buy the Moogs instead, but I know some could've. How many actually would've, though? Who knows? Probably not enough?

 

It's complicated, for me, all the other stuff, Kirn Sniffer, suing Gearspace. And then, I don't mind having a cheap 808 and 303 to play around with. The remakes of the classics, that's pretty cool. I wouldn't buy the copies of contemporary competitors' IP. I think the "superpartners" distribution network sucks, and I haven't bought any of their gear since they did that. My local store was going to set up a synth class (they already cover other instruments) and would've moved quite a few of their synths. They had an entire display of B monosynths going thru a mixer, so people could try them out. I guess it was cheaper for B to consolidate - 1 store per country, like a giant mill town. Eh. The 808 is fun. As someone above mentioned, you can find plenty of them on the used market.

[Bill H.]

Behringer Pro-800: Stocking Stuffer or Suppository?

 

For me I would have to add "Stored away Somewhere." After the novelty wore off, it would sit unused in a drawer or closet because I really don't have a need for a stand-alone analog module. But 40 years ago - wow! I could have REALLY used this MIDI'ed to my DX7! In fact, if Sequential had made a Prophet 600 module back then, sales to DX7 owners might have saved the company. 

[Jim Alfredson]

9 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Let’s cut the cr*p about what repair guys or snobs say about Behringer.

 

Likewise, let's cut the crap about what people who buy cheap shit from shitty companies say about Behringer.  After all, it's just your opinion. So I can discount yours just as easily as you discount mine, since I'm just a 'repair guy' and 'snob'. Works both ways.

 

9 hours ago, CyberGene said:

...and if it wasn’t for cheap modern replicas like Behringer there wouldn’t be the analog synth revival.

 

That's simply not true. The analog revival started long before Behringer got into the game. They got into the game because the analog revival was already in full swing and Uli saw an opportunity to make money by making cheap copies of existing designs.

 

Alesis released the Andromeda in 2000, a bit ahead of the curve. They didn't simply copy an existing design but created a unique polysynth thanks to founder Keith Barr's genius. When Bob Moog reacquired the rights to his name and released the Minimoog Voyager in 2002, that's when the analog revival began in earnest. That same year was the formation of Dave Smith Instruments and the release of the Evolver. Soon after a crop of independent makers came on the scene, mainly focusing on the burgeoning Eurorack modular formats.

 

Behringer didn't release an analog synth until 2016's Deepmind, which is actually a pretty cool synth. If they would've followed that path of making something new based on older designs, something that has it's own character, and also stayed away from making things personal with reviewers, they would not be the subject of so much derision.

 

Trying to 'blame the messenger' by insulting people like me who repair gear (and thus are intimately familiar with cheap shit) or people who are not comfortable with Behringer's shady ethics is simply gaslighting.

 

9 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Let’s face it, almost nobody can purchase ridiculously priced vintage Minimoogs and there aren’t enough of them anyway. 

 

But there are plenty of other options. The Roland SE-02 is a fantastic Minimoog clone, designed in partnership with Studio Electronics, who also make a wonderful Minimoog clone that also expands on the Minimoog's capabilities, the SE-1X. The Studio Electronics BoomStar series is another great product line. The IK Multimedia Uno Synth can sound very Minimoog-ish but has it's own sound as well (not just a copy). Moog's own Grandmother is very Minimoog-ish, as is the Mother 32. There are plenty of options besides supporting a terrible company. 

But that's of course your choice.

[CyberGene]

12 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

Likewise, let's cut the crap about what people who buy cheap shit from shitty companies say about Behringer.  After all, it's just your opinion. So I can discount yours just as easily as you discount mine, since I'm just a 'repair guy' and 'snob'. Works both ways.

That's a valid point but the simple statistics says that rich musicians are so much less than poor musicians 😉

 

17 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

The analog revival started long before Behringer got into the game. They got into the game because the analog revival was already in full swing and Uli saw an opportunity to make money by making cheap copies of existing designs.

 

If you open statistics on websites such as Thomann you will see that Behringer synths outsell other analog synths in a crushing ratio. When I say revival, I don't mean just the desire for analog synths but also the quantity of people who purchased an analog synth, being it a vintage one, a newly designed original one, or a replica. Again, Behringer synths outsell others by a huge margin, and they benefited from the revival but also contributed to it. It's a mutual business. When you say "cheap" copies I sense some judgement. Those vintage designs can be recreated cheaply today. Behringer makes realistically priced copies. Of designs that are not copyrighted anymore. I understand that may not be to anybody's ethical values but that's life. Again, see the demand of Behringer synths and it would be pretty clear what the mass of (poor musicians) think about all that.

 

25 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

But there are plenty of other options. The Roland SE-02 is a fantastic Minimoog clone

That's actually my first synth. It arrived with a defect and I had a lengthy discussion with the guys from the Studio Electronics about the defect. I was extremely polite because I liked the synth a lot. However they were rude and accused me almost directly for being ignorant and stupid and that the defect was not in the device. I've sent them videos, and I kept a very calm and polite tone all the way. After they realized I was right about the problem, they said I shouldn't have contacted them in the first place and they don't usually support the products, it's Roland who do, etc. OK, I agree but why the rude tone, why the wild accusations about me being stupid using their "divine product". It was just a case of yet another snobbish company that won't admit fault. Which is why I purchased the Behringer instead.

[JoJoB3]

On 8/19/2023 at 9:22 AM, Jim Alfredson said:

Please don't support this horrible company.

Lol! I love ya and you're genius but you're overreacting on this. What they're doing is creating a new avenue making it accessible in bringing a new gen to the synth world (and that's a very good thing - for EVERYONE).  That's it. They acknowledged the divide and took advantage of what the other companies chose to ignore in offering staple,  building block synths to new hands and ears (most of which are never going to pay inflated prices for any of this anyway. At best they'll VST before doing so, truly a synth sin).  The majors shoulda ...they just didn't. Now the majors  playing catchup (and still not doing a bang-up job of it yet).

You know I'm a new and vintage synth fan and have my select faves but I'm all for embracing this new Behr KYBD division (add in their digi mixer team as well) and the synthesis avenue they've carved in regard. So far I've found their latest products are extremely useful, musical, and obviously now affordable while introducing modern features that benefit each.  They're not all gems but many are.

That said nobody is ever going to equate the build quality to that of the vintage counterparts, Vintage synthr's can still wax on about their gold. Nobody I know 'hates' Moog, SCI, ARP, etc., that doesn't go away. It just brings these staples to new ears and hands. As well Behr kybd division's very existence is pushing the others in delivering similar offerings while offering vintage owners the luxury of leaving the original safe in studio delivering a useful repros for shows/onstage (at a fraction of the price).

That and reading from the few vintage owners droning on about unobtainium they barely use is beyond useless and boring.

If anything I'd think the target and aim should be at the major players for ignoring this avenue.

[jerrythek]

Behringer is not just into copying synth designs: they are legendary for copying plenty of pro audio gear as well. Look up the now historic fight between Mackie and them for their (Behringer’s) rip-off of Mackie’s mixer. The majority of Behringer’s product line are obvious knock-offs of other companies products. Look up their blatant copy of Roland/Boss pedals one WNAMM. I could go on and on. 
 

With the companies they’ve bought they have some great engineering assets. Things like their Deepmind synth are proof of that. If only they would apply themselves more in that direction. But they instead have few original ideas and simply create cheap (price and quality) ripoffs of the hard work and brilliant ideas of other companies. Why defend that behavior?

[JoJoB3]

Well, the major players had ample time and information to deliver and make it happen. They did not (until now that is).  And again I can (easily) support Behrs kybd division simply in bringing (hands on) synthesis to new, young minds. THAT ultimately is beneficial to everyone in regard. It can't be ignored.

[dazzjazz]

15 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

Another great option. Or the JX3p. Very reasonably priced and better than the Juno in many ways.

I don’t understand the mythic status of the Junos when compared to the JX series. Two oscillators vs one is a no-brainer. The only thing the JX doesn’t have is PWM but I believe KiWI and working on that…

[Tusker]

4 minutes ago, dazzjazz said:

I don’t understand the mythic status of the Junos when compared to the JX series. Two oscillators vs one is a no-brainer. The only thing the JX doesn’t have is PWM but I believe KiWI and working on that…

 

Darren, I've felt the same way since the Junos came out. Still, I've come up with three explanations:

 

- The Juno's were at the perfect price point for some up-and-coming acts at the time. Some iconic tracks were produced with the Junos.

- They have snappy envelopes and so for the producer types, they are a good source of basses, plucks, kicks, snares and hi hats

- They are dead simple. 100% sweet spot.

 

None of these reasons appeal to me. I'll take the rich creaminess of the JXs any day.

 

 

[RABid]

I have a few Behringer items and consider them disposable. To be honest, non of them have been turned on for months. The replicas of vintage gear was enticing, but once you get a Juno X, SH-4D, or one of many other synths you find that you have access to those sounds in a much sturdier format with more polyphony. I really hate that they have copied Moog's synth trio of Mother 32, DFAM and Subharmonicon. These are new production synths and that is a crap move. When they did that I decided that I was done with Behringer. And seriously, for just a bit more than what Behringer charges you can get an Arturia. Love my MiniBrute 2S.

[Joe Muscara]

I keep looking at the title of this thread and thinking, "there's a symmetry that's implied but didn't happen. Did @David Emm edit himself?"

 

  

[David Emm]

42 minutes ago, Joe Muscara said:

I keep looking at the title of this thread and thinking, "there's a symmetry that's implied but didn't happen. Did @David Emm edit himself?"

 

  

 

Why no, not at all! 🤓 If it was a sudden ray of sunshine that held up well, we'd hail it politely like we did the DeepMind series. If its another Crap-O-Matic, Uli should have it shoved way up him. That remains to be seen, although I did encounter a brief video of an early buyer explaining how it was behaving like a cheap-arsed dud. Its as if a B synth is the one you give your kid if you want him to veer away from music, or at least synths. 🤨 The world is bristling with many far better options.