Have you gone from hardware stage keyboard to an iPad and controller setup for bread and butter piano/keyboard sounds? How did it go?

[Reezekeys]

Though I paid $270 (at Best Buy), Apple still sells the 9G for $329 which I assume is the same price it was when first released. And are you sure this model is no longer being made? I think it is. Apple does keep older versions in production even when the newer iterations come out. That's why I don't consider it "old" - when I hear "old" I think "discontinued" and I'm not sure the 9G is.

 

Like me, you obviously weighed the pros & cons for what your needs are and went the other way! I had a pretty good idea the 9G would work for me because my AUM setup was working on my older iPad Air 2. I figured if I could do a gig with the Air 2, the 9G would be just fine - and I was right.

[kanefsky]

8 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

Though I paid $270 (at Best Buy), Apple still sells the 9G for $329 which I assume is the same price it was when first released. And are you sure this model is no longer being made? I think it is. Apple does keep older versions in production even when the newer iterations come out. That's why I don't consider it "old" - when I hear "old" I think "discontinued" and I'm not sure the 9G is.

 

It's a very predictable process where you start seeing discounts at authorized retailers like Best Buy, B&H, etc. even if Apple hasn't officially lowered the list price yet.  At some point Apple may lower the list price, or it will just start becoming harder to find new ones in stock but you'll be able to find refurbished units for a good deal, and so on.  It's a typical process of phasing out an old model, and it's not worth nitpicking about exactly when the last one rolls off the assembly line.  I don't think it's wrong to call an Nth generation iPad an "old" model once the (N+1)th gen iPad comes out.

[hrestov]

Camelot can do velocity remapping. And also control change remapping. And. You can do for each song differently. 
I prefer to load auv3 for each song, I have iPad 8 I think. If I load 3-4 istance of poison, 7-8 of beathawk, 2 of module, 5-6 of bs16i, one of king of fm, 3-4 of Vb3, 1 of just piano, 2 of obxd, 2-3 of red animal, I can’t think that I could load them togheter. 
 

however you can also load auv3 at the start of gig and keep loading them like in aum if you want. You can choose if load an auv3 for each scene, for each song, or for each set list. 
but I have different layer/split for each song…I can change the range for each song. 

 

by the way, there isn’t Camelot for iPhone…

 

 

[Reezekeys]

13 minutes ago, hrestov said:

Camelot can do velocity remapping. And also control change remapping. And. You can do for each song differently. 

 

Impressive, and good to know for anyone considering these apps, thanks.

[ABECK]

18 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Impressive, and good to know for anyone considering these apps, thanks.

FWIW, I've been using MIDI since first connecting my DX-7 to my Sequential Six-Trak in 1986, but damned if I didn't feel like a total noob when trying to initially setup Camelot.  Part of it was configuring my devices properly (especially when using multi channel MIDI sources), the other part was figuring out the interface.  There are a lot of good videos and documentation, but my usual approach to trying what seemed logical and tweaking as I learn wasn't yielding great results.  The support person at Audio Modeling was excellent.  He replied with clear directions and screenshots of how to setup what I needed.  It was a huge nudge in the right direction, and made all the difference in the world.  (hint - learn how to setup MIDI thru layers, they are your friend!!)

[CHarrell]

2 minutes ago, ABECK said:

thru layers

 

Is that a Camelot thing?

[ABECK]

Yes, but I assume Mainstage and other similar programs do the same thing, but call it something else.

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, cassdad said:

Thank you, Hammond Dave, for finally raising this point!  I need to use my iPad for reading my music!  As I’ve been reading the numerous posts in this thread, I’ve been thinking to myself “How can all these musicians be using the iPad for such complex set-ups and still use it to read music (using only 1 iPad)?!”. 

 

Apple's Stage Manager feature (clumsy as it is) might be able to address that. It works on these iPads:

 

iPad Pro 12.9-inch (3rd generation and later)

iPad Pro 11-inch (1st generation and later)

iPad Air (5th generation)

[Sam Mullins]

3 hours ago, cassdad said:

Thank you, Hammond Dave, for finally raising this point!  I need to use my iPad for reading my music!  As I’ve been reading the numerous posts in this thread, I’ve been thinking to myself “How can all these musicians be using the iPad for such complex set-ups and still use it to read music (using only 1 iPad)?!”.

This is one reason I use Camelot instead of AUM...you can display PDF's  (using the attachment tab) with each patch.   Granted that doesn't address your desire to manipulate sounds in real time on the iPad.  I don't do that in my use case...lots of complex setups with splits/layers but one per song with the PDF attached and once a song is called up I don't muck with it.

[cassdad]

7 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Apple's Stage Manager feature (clumsy as it is) might be able to address that. It works on these iPads:

 

iPad Pro 12.9-inch (3rd generation and later)

iPad Pro 11-inch (1st generation and later)

iPad Air (5th generation)

Thank you, Another Scott, it does work on my iPad Pro.  However, due to my poor eyesight, I really need the full screen to use each app, so it’s not really a solution for me (but, yes, it does work).

[cassdad]

10 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

The capability is in AUM (and I assume Camelot Pro) and is dead simple to do. It's called "midi learn." Yes, your keyboard must have some controls on it. If there are any buttons to push, you should look in the manual to see if they can send midi control changes. If they do, you're all set. For example, to turn an instrument on & off in AUM, you tap on the "Channel Controls" for that channel, select "Mute", tap "Learn", then just press the button on your controller - presto, done. AUM links that control to the function. You can do this with many of the controls of AUM - but you do need to have these physical controls present on your keyboard and they must be capable of sending midi when manipulated.

I understand you're already using controls on your keyboard to work the internal sounds. That's a problem, if you can't dedicate a few of them to the iPad. I would recommend something like a Korg NanoKontrol, but from your posts it's obvious you want to keep things simple. It's not always easy to do that, depending on the tools you have. In my case, I use a dedicated midi controller (Roland A800 Pro) which has no sounds at all, just a bunch of buttons, sliders, pads, and knobs, all freely assignable to whatever I want in AUM. It sounds like you may want to just forget using your iPad for anything but reading charts.

Thank you, excellent explanation / help.  Yes, of course I can dedicate some otherwise unused controls to controlling “AUM”, whatever that is.  I went to their website, and really, there’s not enough info / lessons to get me started, and I have no knowledgeable person that I know to help me learn.  Yes, I’m sure, like most things in life, it’s simple once one knows how to use it.  You’ve spurred me on to try… but it will be hours and hours of reading, watching YouTube videos, and trial & error.  I get that the sounds are a “plug in”, but I don’t know what the heck that means with AUM, or how to do it.  Yes, I’m sure I can figure it out, given enough time.  I do not want to just forget it….  certainly, it could be useful having additional sounds, sound tracks etc., acknowledged.

[Baldwin Funster]

1 hour ago, cassdad said:

Thank you, excellent explanation / help.  Yes, of course I can dedicate some otherwise unused controls to controlling “AUM”, whatever that is.  I went to their website, and really, there’s not enough info / lessons to get me started, and I have no knowledgeable person that I know to help me learn.  Yes, I’m sure, like most things in life, it’s simple once one knows how to use it.  You’ve spurred me on to try… but it will be hours and hours of reading, watching YouTube videos, and trial & error.  I get that the sounds are a “plug in”, but I don’t know what the heck that means with AUM, or how to do it.  Yes, I’m sure I can figure it out, given enough time.  I do not want to just forget it….  certainly, it could be useful having additional sounds, sound tracks etc., acknowledged.

AUM is seriously easier to use than you think. If you want to run it the way Reezekeys does, yea that's a more extreme setup. But to just run say 4 keyboard types like EP, Synth, organ, some other 4th thing, with maybe an effect on each one, or even no effects, is quite easy and there are 3 or 4 youtube channels dedicated to AUM  lessons that start like A is for Apple, B is for Box ect. 

[Reezekeys]

14 hours ago, cassdad said:

“AUM”, whatever that is.

 

AUM is the brain - where all your instruments live. And as far as what "plugins" are, you already have at least one: your Hammond B3X. Most iPad instruments run as standalone applications (what you've been doing) and as a plugin inside a host program like AUM or Camelot Pro. As BF said, there are lots of youtubes explaining the basics of AUM (I think one very good one was posted in this thread). It's really not as hard as you seem to think! You just need to figure out which B3X parameters you want to control, and which hardware controls on your keyboard you'll use to control them. Use "midi learn" to link them, and from then on you shouldn't need to have the AUM screen open at all. It will run in the background, and you can use your entire iPad screen to display your music.

 

My organ needs are simple. I only use two VB3m presets - and one of those rarely. So, I have one button programmed to toggle between those presets. I have another button to toggle the Leslie speed from slow to fast, and another to turn percussion on and off. Three buttons - that's all I need. (Of course, my expression pedal is mapped to VB3m's swell pedal, but I think that's the default - I didn't have to do anything there).

 

[edit- I lied! Forgot I mapped a knob on the A800 as an organ "master volume", and another button that mutes & unmutes the AUM channel the organ is on - a general "on & off" for the organ.]

[cassdad]

9 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

AUM is the brain - where all your instruments live. And as far as what "plugins" are, you already have at least one: your Hammond B3X. Most iPad instruments run as standalone applications (what you've been doing) and as a plugin inside a host program like AUM or Camelot Pro. As BF said, there are lots of youtubes explaining the basics of AUM (I think one very good one was posted in this thread). It's really not as hard as you seem to think! You just need to figure out which B3X parameters you want to control, and which hardware controls on your keyboard you'll use to control them. Use "midi learn" to link them, and from then on you shouldn't need to have the AUM screen open at all. It will run in the background, and you can use your entire iPad screen to display your music.

 

My organ needs are simple. I only use two VB3m presets - and one of those rarely. So, I have one button programmed to toggle between those presets. I have another button to toggle the Leslie speed from slow to fast, and another to turn percussion on and off. Three buttons - that's all I need. (Of course, my expression pedal is mapped to VB3m's swell pedal, but I think that's the default - I didn't have to do anything there).

 

[edit- I lied! Forgot I mapped a knob on the A800 as an organ "master volume", and another button that mutes & unmutes the AUM channel the organ is on - a general "on & off" for the organ.]

Thank you, Reezekeys, very appreciated.  I will give it a try!  (I’m just an older dog, hard to teach new tricks!)

[Baldwin Funster]

12 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

AUM is the brain - where all your instruments live. And as far as what "plugins" are, you already have at least one: your Hammond B3X. Most iPad instruments run as standalone applications (what you've been doing) and as a plugin inside a host program like AUM or Camelot Pro. As BF said, there are lots of youtubes explaining the basics of AUM (I think one very good one was posted in this thread). It's really not as hard as you seem to think! You just need to figure out which B3X parameters you want to control, and which hardware controls on your keyboard you'll use to control them. Use "midi learn" to link them, and from then on you shouldn't need to have the AUM screen open at all. It will run in the background, and you can use your entire iPad screen to display your music.

 

My organ needs are simple. I only use two VB3m presets - and one of those rarely. So, I have one button programmed to toggle between those presets. I have another button to toggle the Leslie speed from slow to fast, and another to turn percussion on and off. Three buttons - that's all I need. (Of course, my expression pedal is mapped to VB3m's swell pedal, but I think that's the default - I didn't have to do anything there).

 

[edit- I lied! Forgot I mapped a knob on the A800 as an organ "master volume", and another button that mutes & unmutes the AUM channel the organ is on - a general "on & off" for the organ.]

One thing that's cool about b3x is that the octave lower than the 61 normal keys are preset keys like the reverse keys on a console. So you can jump between presets, without setting up AUM, to play different drawbar settings without needing to switch to the other manual. And you can have a preset that has no drawbars pulled so it is effectively an organ mute. Of course many including myself have forgot to shift octaves and hit those keys accidentally but if you keep it in mind you can have those sounds at hand without any AUM programming.

This new iPad music world has opened up many possibilities for me that I would not have ever been led to otherwise. 

[Reezekeys]

11 hours ago, Baldwin Funster said:

One thing that's cool about b3x is that the octave lower than the 61 normal keys are preset keys like the reverse keys on a console. So you can jump between presets, without setting up AUM, to play different drawbar settings without needing to switch to the other manual. And you can have a preset that has no drawbars pulled so it is effectively an organ mute.

 

This is what's always appealed to me about software vs hardware; there's always a few ways to get things done. I enjoy the challenge of working out the easiest and least resource-intensive way to do it, taking into account the controls I have available. This method of switching presets on B3X is great, and as you say, involves zero programming in AUM. Of course, on most keyboards you don't have the reversed key colors of those preset keys that give you a helpful visual reference! I'd definitely consider this if I had run out of buttons on my controller to switch presets, maybe put some small strips of black gaff tape on those keys.

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

maybe put some small strips of black gaff tape on those keys.

 

Funny, I just started experimenting with just that! This is just an ugly test-of-concept...

 

 

I'm happy with the black tape I used... sticky enough but with a non-residue backing, and a nice texture. 

[Reezekeys]

Great minds think alike, obviously! 🙂 

[CHarrell]

The lack of awesome iOS pianos--after a month of testing, Pianoteq still just doesn't quite do it for me yet, and I read mixed things on all the other apps out there from Ravenscroft to Pure Piano etc.--has got me wondering if a Windows tablet or something might be best for me after all. From what I've been hearing, Garritan CFX sounds amazing and I'd hope its presets feature something live-friendly. I'd also likely upgrade from NSK Studio 1 to 2, the demos sound much better out of the box than 1 did (I have a love hate relationship with it, I appreciate the details it includes but it takes too much effort for me to just get that "classic" Rhodes sounds that boards like the CP88 pull off effortlessly). 

 

The only caveat with this is I'd need to find a tablet with the power to host these plugins and more--probably 16GB RAM--and I need to keep the budget down.

[Ibarch]

For Windows tablets on a budget, the top spec Surface Go 3 would be probably be sufficient. My Surface go 2 can handle the majority of Omnisphere\Keyscape presets. A few of the most demanding can cause dropouts but can be manipulated to work. Could hold off for the Go 4 which is due soon. You may be able to get a top end Go 3 (tablet + laptop combined) on sale for the same price as the current gen iPad (tablet only) . Don't worry about the low storage specs. The surface Go includes an SD card slot and I've found a fast SD card is fine to extend the storgate to 1TB+. Battery life isnt wonderful, about 4 hours when powering an audio interface too. Probably not use on a gig unless plugged in - but has a separate charging port so no iPad dongle nonsense here. 

The Surface Go runs full Windows so has many 1000s more sound libraries and instruments to choose from compared to iPads. However If you are looking to build layers, use multis or multi GB orchestral samples  this may be a stretch too far for the humble Go.

 

A 2 in 1 laptop would give you better performance for the same money but with the compromise of folding over the keyboard rather than a true tablet form with detached keyboard. Lenovo yoga style. 

 

Getting into Macbook pricing territory, both Lenovo and Dell offer a Surface Pro style tablet, maybe slightly cheaper than the Microsoft version. All seem decent. I have a Microsoft Surface Pro 7 i7 and love it. The battery lasts 8 hours plus and will run without the fans on for a lot of stuff. Even if fans are on, they aren't very loud. These are proper high performance laptops and will comfortably handle what you can throw at them. If you are focused more around performance than studio mixing/production (and on an iPad thread that surely must be the case), an i5 chip will give great performance, run cooler and keep the fans off longer than an i7. Saves a few bucks too. And whilst these are premium priced, you can reflect that you are saving money compared to having to buy a Macbook and and iPad for similar functionality.

 

 

From my experience of Surface Pros, you don't need to be an IT genius to use them for audio and get Windows to behave. A few minutes work to set the power profiles and stop non essential apps running in the background and they are good to go. I would highly recommended for anyone looking at iPads but not happy with the limited choice of instruments and sound libraries. Let the iPad users browse their store looking for that one good sound app. I prefer having an entire world of choice that a full laptop offers and in tablet format too. You actually can have everything. 

[analogman1]

I haven't used a PC for music in a very long time.

Without starting a "Mac vs PC" war...
Is the Surface a viable option to run apps like B3-X, and the Cherry Audio/G-Force/Arturia stuff? 

 

[Baldwin Funster]

I can let my iPad sit hooked up to my midi rig and not touch it for 6 hours or 8 or until the battery is about to go unto low power mode. When I hit a chord on the keyboard it's ready to go.

I have 4 different windows computers that I have run vsts on. I have done all the optimization that I can find including all the sleep and hibernation settings, Power modes, background programs, have I missed any?

After 2 or 3 hours of inactivity on any of my windows computers, it has stopped being "ready to go" and needs to have the programs restarted and sometimes the computer needs to be restarted. It is very unreliable.

The iPad OTH has been rock solid reliable so far and I hope it remains so. If you can get your windows computers to stay awake and ready good for you. I have given up trying.

 

 

[AnotherScott]

32 minutes ago, Baldwin Funster said:

I can let my iPad sit hooked up to my midi rig and not touch it for 6 hours or 8 or until the battery is about to go unto low power mode. When I hit a chord on the keyboard it's ready to go.

I have 4 different windows computers that I have run vsts on. I have done all the optimization that I can find including all the sleep and hibernation settings, Power modes, background programs, have I missed any?

After 2 or 3 hours of inactivity on any of my windows computers, it has stopped being "ready to go" and needs to have the programs restarted and sometimes the computer needs to be restarted. It is very unreliable.

The iPad OTH has been rock solid reliable so far and I hope it remains so. If you can get your windows computers to stay awake and ready good for you. I have given up trying.

Are the Windows computers running from battery, or plugged into AC?

[Baldwin Funster]

14 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Are the Windows computers running from battery, or plugged into AC?

 Batteries for all. 2 are tablets, 2 are laptops. One laptop is windows 7. The others are all windows 10. Actually I have 2 more win 10 mini computers that run on power warts. Same thing happens. I've tried them all. I wish I could get them reliable. I have several hundred vsts I would love to use.

[Ibarch]

4 hours ago, Baldwin Funster said:

I can let my iPad sit hooked up to my midi rig and not touch it for 6 hours or 8 or until the battery is about to go unto low power mode. When I hit a chord on the keyboard it's ready to go.

I have 4 different windows computers that I have run vsts on. I have done all the optimization that I can find including all the sleep and hibernation settings, Power modes, background programs, have I missed any?

After 2 or 3 hours of inactivity on any of my windows computers, it has stopped being "ready to go" and needs to have the programs restarted and sometimes the computer needs to be restarted. It is very unreliable.

The iPad OTH has been rock solid reliable so far and I hope it remains so. If you can get your windows computers to stay awake and ready good for you. I have given up trying.

 

 

I don't have this issue, my PC is always  ready for use straight away. 

 

Have you checked device drivers and disabled setting to "let Windows manage power to this device"? Do this for USB controllers/hubs, network cards etc. Goto device manager and right click each device and select properties to find thus setting. It does sound like a certain hardware driver powering down. 

 

Can you be a bit more specific about the exact symptoms when you try and resume a program? Is the entire pc unresponsive or just the program? 

Does start menu still work, and can you load new programs? 

If the basic program is still running, has it just lost audio connections, midi connections or is the whole program unresponsive? 

 

Happy to try and help troubleshoot if you want. Maybe direct msg me and we can do it outside the forum to not bore everyone else. 

 

 

[Ibarch]

5 hours ago, analogman1 said:

Is the Surface a viable option to run apps like B3-X, and the Cherry Audio/G-Force/Arturia stuff? 

 

 

It will run anything that supports Windows and provides VSTs. I have a few Arturia plugins like the Moog mini and CS80. They run perfectly, even on my Surface Go 2, the baby of the Surface family. 

[CHarrell]

Love hearing your perspective, thanks @Ibarch! Re: Windows power, when I have my computer plugged in through AC, and my power settings have saver mode turned off, I don't experience any issues whatsoever, whether running a DAW or a video game. While it might not be as convenient because there'd be one more cable to plug in and deal with, I was experimenting with larger libraries on my iPad just the other day and hooked up an external SSD so it could save the samples...and I got an error message saying the SSD required too much power to run. So what's that mean? Do I need to buy a CCK adapter that allows for simultaneous charging, is my iPad just too weak no matter what, I don't know.

 

I do know that if I plug this SSD into a Windows device though (since there's no "portable Windows OS" concessions), that my SSD will work no problems. 

[kanefsky]

7 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

I do know that if I plug this SSD into a Windows device though (since there's no "portable Windows OS" concessions), that my SSD will work no problems. 

 

Same with all newer iPads that have USB-C (iPad 10th gen, iPad Mini, iPad Air, iPad Pro).  No dongles or hubs needed.  The iPad Pros can even connect to Thunderbolt drives and transfer at 40Gbps.

 

The previous generation lowest-end iPad 9th gen is the only exception among models still being sold.

 

[Baldwin Funster]

1 minute ago, CHarrell said:

Love hearing your perspective, thanks @Ibarch! Re: Windows power, when I have my computer plugged in through AC, and my power settings have saver mode turned off, I don't experience any issues whatsoever, whether running a DAW or a video game. While it might not be as convenient because there'd be one more cable to plug in and deal with, I was experimenting with larger libraries on my iPad just the other day and hooked up an external SSD so it could save the samples...and I got an error message saying the SSD required too much power to run. So what's that mean? Do I need to buy a CCK adapter that allows for simultaneous charging, is my iPad just too weak no matter what, I don't know.

 

I do know that if I plug this SSD into a Windows device though (since there's no "portable Windows OS" concessions), that my SSD will work no problems. 

CCK and powered hub is the best option for peripherals that draw power IMHO. 

[CHarrell]

So it's 

11 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

 

Same with all newer iPads that have USB-C (iPad 10th gen, iPad Mini, iPad Air, iPad Pro).  No dongles or hubs needed.  The iPad Pros can even connect to Thunderbolt drives and transfer at 40Gbps.

 

The previous generation lowest-end iPad 9th gen is the only exception among models still being sold.

 

 

So it is an iPad power issue, meaning mine is just too weak and I'd need to upgrade?