Roland needs to move some Fantom-0’s this summer

[ElmerJFudd]

$250 cash back from manufacturer. 
 

Similar deals on other models.  

Emailer Link

 

[Fleer]

Beware of the October Montage!

[Baldwin Funster]

Roland is probably worried that Behringer will come out with the Bantom-O so they better move some product while they can.

[ElmerJFudd]

5 hours ago, Fleer said:

Beware of the October Montage!

Oooo, but the rebate brings Juno-X down to $1899.99.

[ProfD]

I'm not surprised that hardware manufacturers are offering discounts and rebates on their products. 

 

Manufacturers are not only competing with each other in hardware but also with software that is a cheaper alternative. 

 

More folks are using laptops, tablets and smartphones as an instrument.😎

[ElmerJFudd]

True. But the controller that has the build quality, action and control features we’d want to use with a laptop remains illusive.  
 

Why do we continue to have to pay for the silicon powerful enough to drive the software instruments twice? - on board and the laptop.   

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

True. But the controller that has the build quality, action and control features we’d want to use with a laptop remains illusive.  
 

Why do we continue to have to pay for the silicon powerful enough to drive the software instruments twice? - on board and the laptop.

Manufacturers heard the grumbling and complaining for lighter-weight KBs. 

 

They delivered plastic KBs with a sh8tty action as part of the weight reduction program.🤣

 

I'm still convinced that most modern KB MIDI controllers are designed to be data entry devices.  They're not really aimed at piano-trained KB players. 

 

The Kawai VPC-1 is the exceptional KB MIDI controller.  Yet, it costs as much as a digital piano (DP) or ROMpler.😁

 

Otherwise, Iit seems the ideal KB rig for many is some combination old/new hardware and/or a laptop running software. 

 

IOW, manufacturers are purposefully failing to deliver the unicorn KB in order to keep the hamster wheel spinning.😎

[stoken6]

15 minutes ago, ProfD said:

I'm still convinced that most modern KB MIDI controllers are designed to be data entry devices.  They're not really aimed at piano-trained KB players. 

This. Many "pure" controllers struggle to send MIDI program change in a way that's useful to a live/gigging musician. The best controllers tend to have on-board sounds (step forward the venerable Casio PX-5).

 

Cheers, Mike.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

Manufacturers heard the grumbling and complaining for lighter-weight KBs. 

 

They delivered plastic KBs with a sh8tty action as part of the weight reduction program.🤣

 

I'm still convinced that most modern KB MIDI controllers are designed to be data entry devices.  They're not really aimed at piano-trained KB players. 

 

The Kawai VPC-1 is the exceptional KB MIDI controller.  Yet, it costs as much as a digital piano (DP) or ROMpler.😁

 

Otherwise, Iit seems the ideal KB rig for many is some combination old/new hardware and/or a laptop running software. 

 

IOW, manufacturers are purposefully failing to deliver the unicorn KB in order to keep the hamster wheel spinning.😎

I think you hit a few marks here. 
 

A. the controller market as it stands is aimed mainly at the bedroom producer.  This is unfortunate since many of the best instruments that “players” want to play are in software now. 
 

B. they never want to provide us with something too close to the  “golden unicorn” - at least not for less than $4k - because it would kill upgrades. So they juggle features, this time it has this but not that. Next time it has that but not this. It takes the arrival of a Nord or Dexibell to spur more complete offerings. 
 

C. Cheap plastic builds with cheap actions have always been around.  But yes, many models have  sacked the particle board base to reduce weight.  
 

D. The VPC-1 is definitely not made to travel. But kudos to Kawai for building a quality action piano controller.  And for keeping action a priority all the way down to their entry ES120. 
 

I think Roland is well positioned with their Cloud software subscription service to put out a decent quality controller without having us pay for the processing power needed for sound generation (obviously they continue to earn income on the subscription).  But I don’t know that they’ll do it. They currently seem intent on sticking the same DSP in every keyboard they make just to run the same audio engine they have running on laptops. 

 

 

 

[ProfD]

17 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I think Roland is well positioned with their Cloud software subscription service to put out a decent quality controller without having us pay for the processing power needed for sound generation (obviously they continue to earn income on the subscription).  But I don’t know that they’ll do it. They currently seem intent on sticking the same DSP in every keyboard they make just to run the same audio engine they have running on laptops. 

Agreed. 

 

Roland is a great example of a manufacturer milking the past into the future. Never going to deliver the unicorn.

 

The hardware changes.  The technology gets a new name (SRX, SuperNatural, ABM, ACB, etc.). 

 

Yet, Roland has been recycling and selling some iteration of the JV soundset for 30 years and counting.🤣

 

Look at the patch names in Roland KBs. That sh8t is identical.  Same sounds in a new box with a new price. 😁

 

But, I cannot fault Roland for the brilliant stroke of manufacturing and marketing.  Yamaha and Korg are equally guilty.  

 

The manufacturers have musicians on a hamster wheel, er, upgrading gear for incremental differences without ever totally delivering the goods.😎

[RABid]

Roland took a big chance with the cloud, making so many of their hardware synths available in software, and finding a way to move those software instruments back to modern hardware. It has paid off big and I am sure Yamaha and Kong are trying to figure a way to counter, or join. Roland has penetrated every market, from software to hardware, from $200 mini synths to $4000 work stations. The ability to load so many different synths onto my Jupiter X is wonderful. I was going to sell my Jupiter Xm once I bought the full size X, but the little Xm is so handy when paired with an Electron or some other beat box. And any MPC owner would love to have one just to sample. A few years ago MPC heads were using the Integra to make their own loops. You would be shocked at how many loop packs were done with an Integra. Now the Jupiter Xm and the Roland Cloud has become a major sound source for those wanting to make and sell loops and beats. And those little $200 Roland synths are selling big. They really put a hurt on the Volca sales. You have to wonder how Korg and Yamaha are planning.

[ElmerJFudd]

11 hours ago, RABid said:

Roland took a big chance with the cloud, making so many of their hardware synths available in software, and finding a way to move those software instruments back to modern hardware. It has paid off big and I am sure Yamaha and Kong are trying to figure a way to counter, or join. Roland has penetrated every market, from software to hardware, from $200 mini synths to $4000 work stations. The ability to load so many different synths onto my Jupiter X is wonderful. I was going to sell my Jupiter Xm once I bought the full size X, but the little Xm is so handy when paired with an Electron or some other beat box. And any MPC owner would love to have one just to sample. A few years ago MPC heads were using the Integra to make their own loops. You would be shocked at how many loop packs were done with an Integra. Now the Jupiter Xm and the Roland Cloud has become a major sound source for those wanting to make and sell loops and beats. And those little $200 Roland synths are selling big. They really put a hurt on the Volca sales. You have to wonder how Korg and Yamaha are planning.

Korg has desktop software versions of a lot of their hardware, past and present.  Thankfully for us they haven’t gone subscription yet and on occasion run a sale. And they have been forward thinking on several occasions - Oasys, Kronos.   And are willing to listen to the street (SV1, Vox Continental, Micro Korg, iOS versions of their synths and ROMplers).  
 

Yamaha is vastly slower to react - it took them forever to do a CP/YC that responded to Nord’s  entry.  Yamaha is afraid of releasing their sound engines in desktop or iOS format.   The coolest thing they did in that regard was an AN synth for iOS and they made it part of an anniversary booklet app rather than an AU3. 🤷‍♂️  But they did buy Steinberg and will likely continue to leave software instruments to them. 
 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

Roland is also offering a lifetime Zenology Pro Collection at the moment. 

 

With our ZENOLOGY Pro Collection, you get our flagship plug-in, as well as JUNO-106, JUPITER-8, JD-800, JX-8P, and SH-101 Model Expansions—and all for $599 (USD).

 

Introducing ZENOLOGY Pro Collection (rolandcloud.com)

[ProfD]

53 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

With our ZENOLOGY Pro Collection, you get our flagship plug-in, as well as JUNO-106, JUPITER-8, JD-800, JX-8P, and SH-101 Model Expansions—and all for $599 (USD).

For a few hundred dollars more, the Juno DS61 is a hardware KB containing a reasonable facsimile of those same sounds.😁😎

[ElmerJFudd]

14 minutes ago, ProfD said:

For a few hundred dollars more, the Juno DS61 is a hardware KB containing a reasonable facsimile of those same sounds.😁😎

It depends on your desires - do you need or want to tweak the sounds, and to what extent.  do you want to program the synthesis engine, do you want to be able to access patches, share patches, etc.  Do you need to split and layer?  To what extent?   I would say in hardware something more similar would be the SH4D which costs about the same, or the Jupiter-xm which currently is about $1499.99.   Obviously the Jupiter-X as well, but there Roland has you paying for the build and action at $2699.99 - these prices are based on their rebate offer.  

[ProfD]

3 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

It depends on your desires - do you need or want to tweak the sounds, and to what extent.  do you want to program the synthesis engine, do you want to be able to access patches, share patches, etc.  Do you need to split and layer?  To what extent? 

Sure.  But, let's keep it real...very few folks are creating sounds using a subtractive synth that do not already exist within the 500 presets available. 😁😎

[ElmerJFudd]

Just now, ProfD said:

Sure.  But, let's keep it real...very few folks are creating sounds using a subtractive synth that do not already exist within the 500 presets available. 😁😎

😂 I see what you’re up to.  I’m not apologizing for Roland rehashing PCM patches across decades of hardware. But I’m not quite as cynical about it either.  😁

[Ibarch]

13 hours ago, ProfD said:

Sure.  But, let's keep it real...very few folks are creating sounds using a subtractive synth that do not already exist within the 500 presets available. 😁😎

 

Having Zenology Pro to enable full editing of all sounds and the ability to load those back into a hardware board chosen from a range of synths and stage pianos is a powerful combination. I'm making frequent use of this with my RD-88, and it's 4000 or so presets. 

 

Getting all the synth plugins on top is a tempting offer. 

[AnotherScott]

 

20 hours ago, ProfD said:

21 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

With our ZENOLOGY Pro Collection, you get our flagship plug-in, as well as JUNO-106, JUPITER-8, JD-800, JX-8P, and SH-101 Model Expansions—and all for $599 (USD).

For a few hundred dollars more, the Juno DS61 is a hardware KB containing a reasonable facsimile of those same sounds.😁😎

 

I believe there is very little overlap. Juno DS sounds are strictly sample-based (no VA engine/emulation at all). Most of those sampled sounds are from the Fantom S/X/G sound set, and I don't think those sounds are even in Zenology (I'd be glad to be corrected if it is otherwise). The place where there is the most overlap is in the Juno DS expansions, though even that is quite limited. The Juno DS can load the equivalent of one of Zenology's SRX-based expansions at a time, and you can also download versions of XV-5080 sounds into the DS (and Zenology also includes the XV-5080 sounds).

[ElmerJFudd]

19 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

 

I believe there is very little overlap. Juno DS sounds are strictly sample-based (no VA engine/emulation at all). Most of those sampled sounds are from the Fantom S/X/G sound set, and I don't think those sounds are even in Zenology (I'd be glad to be corrected if it is otherwise). The place where there is the most overlap is in the Juno DS expansions, though even that is quite limited. The Juno DS can load the equivalent of one of Zenology's SRX-based expansions at a time, and you can also download versions of XV-5080 sounds into the DS (and Zenology also includes the XV-5080 sounds).

Yes, of course.  The Prof isn't interested in the details.  He just loves to get on Roland about their recycled ROMs.  Its funny, I get the joke.  

[ProfD]

7 hours ago, Ibarch said:

Having Zenology Pro to enable full editing of all sounds and the ability to load those back into a hardware board....

Absolutely.  Makes sense as an editor. 

29 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Juno DS sounds are strictly sample-based (no VA engine/emulation at all). Most of those sampled sounds are from the Fantom S/X/G sound set...

You've made this distinction clear in other Roland related threads. 

 

Notice my use of the phrase reasonable facsimile sounds. Every ROMpler has some semblance of the most popular synth sounds.

 

IMO, very few folks are programming unique sounds.  Especially not on a ROMpler.   

 

Synthesists aren't using ROMplers for  sound design. 

 

Gigging musicians aren't doing real sound design.  They're tweaking presets.😎

[David Emm]

I'd love to lay hands to a Jupiter-X, to see if the keybed meets my lofty standards. I think Roland hit the mark beautifully with a Jupiter that answers the legendary mania over the JP-8. I'd pack that thing with every bit of Zen-CORE it would hold. As with the RD-88, once you do the homework, you're not missing much. Their Cloud has its clunky aspects, but just buying a lifetime D-50 Key lifted me up quite a bit. I appreciate how Roland gives you the means to find your own sweet spot.

 

BTW, I tweak presets, mainly because they usually contain what I once had to build by hand from Step One. Part of good sound design is sensible time management. An hour building a perfect string section, good; 10 minutes modifying a preset that gets you to the same place, even better.

[ProfD]

36 minutes ago, David Emm said:

BTW, I tweak presets, mainly because they usually contain what I once had to build by hand from Step One. Part of good sound design is sensible time management. An hour building a perfect string section, good; 10 minutes modifying a preset that gets you to the same place, even better.

For sure.  Also, that's 50 minutes we can spend playing music with that variation on a string sound.😁😎

[AnotherScott]

5 hours ago, ProfD said:

Synthesists aren't using ROMplers for  sound design. 

which I suppose is also a reason a Juno DS (essentially a rompler) isn't a replacement for zenology (which has a lot to appeal to people into sound design).

 

To me it's a real apples-and-oranges comparison. Juno DS is for live performance, Zenology is for studio use. Of course you can find ways to use either one for the other purpose, but their strengths lie in opposite directions.

[ProfD]

32 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Juno DS (essentially a rompler) isn't a replacement for zenology (which has a lot to appeal to people into sound design).

 

To me it's a real apples-and-oranges comparison. Juno DS is for live performance, Zenology is for studio use.

I'd be slightly curious to hear how the Juno and Zenology are being used differently when it comes to sounds.

 

I doubt that synth sound designers are creating customized Zenology sound packs.😁

 

When it comes to sounds, I'm willing to bet a few red delicious that for most folks, the difference between the Juno and Zenology will be Gala and Granny Smith.🤣

 

OK...as long as Scott doesn't pull me back, I'll try to bow out of this thread before I run over my stand-up comedy time.😎

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

I'd be slightly curious to hear how the Juno and Zenology are being used differently when it comes to sounds.😎

 

The sounds are going to be a subjective thing. Some people think that samples of some popular Jupiter 8, Oberheim, Minimooog sounds are fine. Others will say that, short of the real thing, you at least need some kind of actual VA synthesis to begin to get close to the sonic behaviors of those instruments. I'm not going to make that call for anyone else.

 

My take on it (though not using zenology myself) is that the DS is not at all designed for sound editing except for masochists. It's a menu-based system with a tiny (256 x 80 LCD) display, and no computer-based editor. It's designed for someone to perform with the sounds as is, or mildly tweaked, individually or in various split/layered combinations, in a very portable package.

 

Zenology has extensive editing functionality using your full-size computer screen, as well as types of synthesis that go beyond sample-based, so it's clearly more suited than the DS is to producers or other recording folk who want to sculpt their own sounds for their creations. But not only is it more suitable than the DS for the sound sculptors, it's also less suitable than the DS for simple performance. Besides the obvious additional complication of having to add the computer to the rig (with the necessary programming/configuration, wiring, logistical placement issues), it doesn't respond to MIDI Program Change. So if you want to perform with it and not have to interact directly with the computer during performance, you'll need to run it not by itself, but within some additional hosting environment (Gig Performer, Cantabile, Camelot Pro, etc., if not a DAW). Obviously, lots of people do that sort of thing anyway, who feel the benefits out-weight the complications compared to just using something like a Juno DS. But I think this is all consistent with my take that Roland is targeting different goals, Zenology is for production, Juno DS is for performance. 

[zephonic]

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

I'd be slightly curious to hear how the Juno and Zenology are being used differently when it comes to sounds.

 

 

Well, look at me, I have both Zenology and Juno DS!

 

Zenology mostly to have that Roland sound ITB, I tweak but don't really program from scratch. I use laptop rig on flyaways, so to have that Roland stuff ITB is really convenient.

 

Juno DS, had it for a year and only gigged twice. One of these days I need to sit down and create all the patches/performances I need for gigs, but the Krome just keeps doing the job, so there hasn't been much incentive for me to switch. 

 

The difference between the two? They both have that Roland character and a lot of legacy stuff, which is both good and bad depending on your view. IMO, Zenology has some newer, better sounding stuff, though.

 

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

For sure.  Also, that's 50 minutes we can spend playing music with that variation on a string sound.😁😎

 

 

Yeah, I'd love for that to always be true. But the fact is, I'm right now sitting in my room creating patches/performances in GP for a show this weekend. I literally spent 40 minutes creating a stupid string patch that is only used once in the whole show. I could just pull up any old preset and not care, but I can't help myself!

[zephonic]

16 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

My take on it (though not using zenology myself) is that the DS is not at all designed for sound editing except for masochists. It's a menu-based system with a tiny (256 x 80 LCD) display, and no computer-based editor.

 

That's incorrect. There is an editor/librarian and it works well, sort of, except the lag is really annoying, and it's kind of lo-res.

[RABid]

The Juno X will probably be my next keyboard purchase, even though I have the Jupiter X and Xm. Different layout for programming a different historical synth. Plus, I really like the additional oscillator of the Juno X, just as I like the 2 extra oscillators on the Jupiter X model. I appreciate Roland providing both the true structure, and the X structure with extra options such as oscillators. I also like that the Jupiter X has a Moog and a Prophet filter as options. 

[ProfD]

15 hours ago, zephonic said:

Well, look at me, I have both Zenology and Juno DS!

 

Zenology mostly to have that Roland sound ITB, I tweak but don't really program from scratch. 

 

The difference between the two? They both have that Roland character and a lot of legacy stuff, which is both good and bad depending on your view. IMO, Zenology has some newer, better sounding stuff, though.

 

Yeah, I'd love for that to always be true. But the fact is, I'm right now sitting in my room creating patches/performances in GP for a show this weekend. I literally spent 40 minutes creating a stupid string patch that is only used once in the whole show. I could just pull up any old preset and not care, but I can't help myself!

Brotha Z, it's OK.  Most users fall in the same category ever since presets were created. 😎