Anyone else not a fan of the crash cymbal

[David Emm]

You know who really hates crash cymbals? Your dog. I had a friend who wisely set his drums up in a well-padded garage space, but the dog veered away from that area like Satan had peed in the corner. Sometimes your musical heaven is a pet's mini-Hell. Besides, in my lofty opinion, no one needs a crash cymbal but an orchestra, a death metal band or the set dresser on "Jackass."      

[jazzpiano88]

 This isn't a parody thread?    I thought it was pretty obvious after the harpsichord weirdness.

[bill5]

? No. I was quite serious. And I totally admit it isn't anything inherent to the thing itself; it's just my tastes changing as I get older I think.

[K K]

 

[KuruPrionz]

There's nothing wrong with cymbals. 

There IS something wrong with most of the people who hit them. 😇

[jazzpiano88]

1 hour ago, bill5 said:

? No. I was quite serious. And I totally admit it isn't anything inherent to the thing itself; it's just my tastes changing as I get older I think.

 

So, for example, no Tony Williams (or virtually any significant recorded drummer in the last 60 years) in your listening future?

[bill5]

It was a general statement, not an absolute.

[TommyRude]

You mean you don't like this setup?

[analogika]

23 hours ago, Adam Burgess said:

Rather sit next to a crash cymbal than a china!

I took part in an album recording session some years ago, and when the drummer set up his kit, the engineer went right up and unmounted the china as a matter of form. 
 

“No china in this studio.”

 

 

Same band, the singer/leader at one point asked the drummer to accent a particular chorus with a crash, and the drummer went, “No.” 

The singer briefly flared up, half-seriously, and then the drummer explained that each song only had a fixed number of cymbal hits available, and this arrangement had already used them all up. 
 

Singer let that sink in for a moment and said, “You know what? You’re absolutely right.” 
 

He was. 
 

I think we ended up moving the crash hit from the bridge to the last chorus. 

[David Emm]

https://www.patmastelotto.com/gear/

 

Pat is one of my favorite modern drum heroes. Its obvious that you are a demigod if you can hold down any chair in King Crimson, but I especially appreciate his choice of e-drums. Its a solid sign of someone who appreciates the added variety they bring. This guy could play oatmeal boxes and I'd still listen.

[RABid]

Has anyone noticed how much the bodies of Star Trek ships look like cymbals? I’m seriously considering stenciling NCC-1701 onto one of my cymbals. 

[jazzpiano88]

China starting at 2:29.  Talk about tasty!!!

 

 

[Iconoclast]

In a lot of modern music where the drums are written by non-drummers on a computer, there's a distinct reduction in the amount of crashes...like, almost no crashes.  Not to mention that even in music recorded with real drummers the crashes are typically not near as loud as drummers think they need to be in a live room.
 

[TommyRude]

perhaps in music, we should adopt one of the same tenets as in driving.  "No ________"

[MathOfInsects]

Plenty of singers I know (including sometimes me) find cymbals in general distracting. If the singer is the "tisshhh," you only really need the "boom" to mark time.

But as I'm sure someone has already mentioned in the thread, if your tolerance for that particular sound has decreased over time, it's almost certainly a hearing-related issue of some kind, beyond mere preference. 

[bill5]

Nope. Pure preference.

[Docbop]

This thread reminds me of an old story told about the great guitarist <fill in the blank>.  Over the years it's been credited to a few.   Kind of like many Jazz quotes that have been credited multiple musicians over time. 

 

The story goes the Jazz guitar legend du jour plays a show and goes to his dressing room and sets his guitar in stand in the corner of the room.   Different people fall by to say hello and the usual.   Then this fanboy from the audience comes in and starts and says....  Man your guitar sounded so great what a show!!!    The old legend gets ticked and points to the guitar sitting in the stand in the corner and says.....  How's it sound now????   

 

So don't blame the innocent cymbal blame whose playing it.   That's the source of your problem not the tool, but the person using it. 

[KuruPrionz]

10 minutes ago, Docbop said:

This thread reminds me of an old story told about the great guitarist <fill in the blank>.  Over the years it's been credited to a few.   Kind of like many Jazz quotes that have been credited multiple musicians over time. 

 

The story goes the Jazz guitar legend du jour plays a show and goes to his dressing room and sets his guitar in stand in the corner of the room.   Different people fall by to say hello and the usual.   Then this fanboy from the audience comes in and starts and says....  Man your guitar sounded so great what a show!!!    The old legend gets ticked and points to the guitar sitting in the stand in the corner and says.....  How's it sound now????   

 

So don't blame the innocent cymbal blame whose playing it.   That's the source of your problem not the tool, but the person using it. 

Yep, what I said too!

It's like blaming the amp instead of the player who turned it up way too loud and/or gets a crap tone. 

My Grandmother would have cooked a filet mignon so it was well done and dry in the center, not the beef's fault either. 

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, KuruPrionz said:

My Grandmother would have cooked a filet mignon so it was well done and dry in the center, not the beef's fault either. 

That's a hell of a thing to call your grandma.

[bill5]

It appears that for some reason a few people may not be getting the gist of what I'm saying...it's probably not worth trying to re-explain, but I'm stubborn, so I'll give it one more shot  As I get older, I notice I generally and increasingly don't like the sound of the crash cymbal. I'm not talking about the peformance and use of it, simply the sound itself. 

[Justin Havu]

14 hours ago, bill5 said:

It appears that for some reason a few people may not be getting the gist of what I'm saying...it's probably not worth trying to re-explain, but I'm stubborn, so I'll give it one more shot  As I get older, I notice I generally and increasingly don't like the sound of the crash cymbal. I'm not talking about the peformance and use of it, simply the sound itself. 

 

I get it.  I feel the same way about ride cymbals, as I previously mentioned.  I've yet to come across one that is pleasing to my ears.

[The Real MC]

I know a drummer who plays in multiple genres.

 

He doesn't use the same cymbals for every genre.  A rock cymbal is out of place in jazz.  There's a certain tone he listens for to fit the genre.

I'd say there's something to that approach as nobody has complained.  Most drummers don't think like that, and most drum modules/plugins don't provide that kind of variety.

[The Real MC]

On 5/26/2023 at 10:10 PM, KuruPrionz said:

There's nothing wrong with cymbals. 

There IS something wrong with most of the people who hit them. 😇

^ TRUTH

[The Real MC]

I have observed that the talent of a drummer - with few exceptions - is inversely proportional to how big his kit is.

[Mark Schmieder]

More cowbell, less crash cymbal?

[Mark Schmieder]

Cymbals vary a lot in sound. The ones I bought were based on years of production work, as I take extremely detailed notes (something I learned from studying George Martin and his crew of engineers). I absolutely cannot tolerate Meinl's but they have become quite popular. Very brash. I'm a Zildjian "A" series man all the way.

 

In jazz, the cymbals are far more important than the toms. But the best players use them for subtle coloration. Many modern players moved away from top kit precisely because a lot of players had worn out people's ears. These things come and go. Toms were on the outs when I bought my own kit (which is mostly for others and not for me; it encourages drummers to be part of my projects when they don't have to invest 3+ hours for every get-together, aside from the music time itself).

 

The so-called "Reverse Cymbal" that I think may have gotten its biggest push from the Yamaha RX7 Drum Machine, is all over 80's pop records, but a better version of that sound can be achieved using an orchestral Suspended Cymbal with Mallet. More variation in the sound that way, and a more organic build and decay.

 

The best drummers I work with, adapt to whatever kit they're in front of. We have fired a couple of drummers who complained non-stop about every aspect of a kit. The size of a kit is irrelevant; just because there are eight toms or cymbals in front of you doesn't mean you have to use them all, especially non-stop. Maybe once for accent.

[RABid]

19 hours ago, bill5 said:

As I get older, I notice I generally and increasingly don't like the sound of the crash cymbal.

It is not surprising. As you get older sensory receptors change. When my dad was on dialysis his dietitian told us to not deny him sweets. She explained that aging causes the taste buds to fade and sweets are the last thing that still taste good, and normal to many elderly people. I assume hearing can be the same. You get old and some frequencies start to stand out.

[MathOfInsects]

Just now, RABid said:

It is not surprising. As you get older sensory receptors change. When my dad was on dialysis his dietitian told us to not deny him sweets. She explained that aging causes the taste buds to fade and sweets are the last thing that still taste good, and normal to many elderly people. I assume hearing can be the same. You get old and some frequencies start to stand out.

Particularly after a lifetime of playing or even listening to music. (Not sure which one applies to OP.) Though OP is adamant that doesn't apply here. 

I also think we become more and more used to listening to stuff in that squashed mid-range in general, so may be more sensitive to overloading that narrow range with too much sonic information.

My personal gripe against cymbals generally predates what is surely also some age-related hearing dampening and some recent-onset tinnitus, which has made my tolerance for those sounds much worse. It has to do with how they're deployed. It's on cymbals that I most hear people playing patterns as opposed to parts, and it distracts me. A tasteful deployment of tingy metal sound can be awesome. That constant tick-tick-swash-swash just because that's where it goes in the pattern, makes me agitated as a listener. It's like someone whispering in a quiet room while someone else is speaking.



 

[Mark Schmieder]

34 minutes ago, RABid said:

It is not surprising. As you get older sensory receptors change. When my dad was on dialysis his dietitian told us to not deny him sweets. She explained that aging causes the taste buds to fade and sweets are the last thing that still taste good, and normal to many elderly people. I assume hearing can be the same. You get old and some frequencies start to stand out.

 

Yes, in fact the most interesting thing is that specific frequencies can disappear rather than a tail-off towards the high frequencies. This is because the receptors die and we have one for each frequency band. You can get tested to find out which frequencies you are missing, and indeed it can affect what one finds pleasant or unpleasant to hear.