Apple Airpod Pros as active & "intelligent" earplugs

[MathOfInsects]

1 minute ago, Ibarch said:

 

I'm not sure about this. If my layman's understanding is correct, active transparency is not adding any protection at all. It is quite the opposite. It is feeding sound back into your ears, that had otherwise been blocked by the passive seal. 

 

The limiter may restrict the level of additional noise put back in to your ear but  transparency is always more sound, not any protection against sound. 

See the table at this link. -8db with silicone earbuds only, -10dB with AT engaged. 

 

dB are logarithmic, so this is not minor. 

[Ibarch]

Everyone here seems to use Airpods. Has anyone tried other buds? 

 

I have used Samsung Galaxy buds when attending gigs. They do a good job of protecting my ears and preventing that ringing feeling that I used to get for hours afterwards. The sound is ok too. The ambient sound mode is needed, any noise cancellation takes too much of the sound away. Like listening to the band from the bottom of a swimming pool. 

 

I've not tried them whilst playing because I always use my in ears. 

[Ibarch]

6 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

See the table at this link. -8db with silicone earbuds only, -10dB with AT engaged. 

 

dB are logarithmic, so this is not minor. 

 

I see the numbers so it must be true. 

 

But it doesn't make sense. If noise cancellation was involved, the amplitude of sound waves hitting your ear canal would be reduced by the inverse phased signals added. Yet transparency doesn't include noise cancellation. It just puts extra sound into your ears. How can that provide protection?

[MathOfInsects]

6 minutes ago, Ibarch said:

 

I see the numbers so it must be true. 

 

But it doesn't make sense. If noise cancellation was involved, the amplitude of sound waves hitting your ear canal would be reduced by the inverse phased signals added. Yet transparency doesn't include noise cancellation. It just puts extra sound into your ears. How can that provide protection?

Since the same phenomenon is seen in the Bose, I am guessing that the limiter must be being applied to some of the pass-through sound, and not just what's being added in via the mics.

[Reezekeys]

I don't believe anyone at Apple thinks, or would claim, that adaptive transparency adds protection. They specifically tout it as a way for you to hear what's going on around you - so, yes, by feeding outside sound into the buds via the microphones you could say that the overall spl hitting your eardrums is increased compared to having the sound reduced only by the passive seal of the eartips. However, in my experience, with the amplification on the microphones set to minimum, the overall level is still reduced compared to not having the buds in at all. That, and the obvious bonus that the mics help in hearing a more normal range of frequencies as opposed to the typical muffled sound of regular earplugs by themselves. The "adaptive" part, where the limiter kicks in on louder sounds, adds additional protection which as I mentioned in my last post was very noticeable to me.

 

The transparency mode also has a parameter called "reduce ambient sounds" which is DSP that sounds  - to me - like a subtler or more limited kind of active noise cancellation. It seems to work over a limited range of frequencies as compared to the Airpod's "full" ANC mode. Maybe someone else can describe it better than me. I'm not sure it does anything that "adds protection" when using the Airpods to experience loud music though - I still find myself messing with the control. The effect is most noticeable (and useful) when you're in a room with a lot of people talking at the same time.

[Ibarch]

I suspect that if Apple say they are not using noise cancelling then they are not.

 

Noise cancelling is specifically about inverting the phase of sound waves 180 degrees, to cancel out the sound. They may be doing filtering of certain frequencies or some other clever dsp techniques to remove certain elements, or amplify frequencies to aid speech but it probably isn't noise cancelling ... yet. 

[Reezekeys]

6 minutes ago, Ibarch said:

I suspect that if Apple say they are not using noise cancelling then they are not.

 

Does Apple specifically say they are not using any ANC in transparency mode? I can only tell you that when I move the slider they label "reduce ambient sounds" from minimum to maximum, a fair portion of the audio I hear - mostly background noise in the mid & higher frequencies –  disappears almost completely. It sure sounds like some kind of noise cancellation to me. It's not near the same as the pods' true ANC mode where almost all the outside sound goes away - but the effect is very noticeable. What kind of DSP would that be if not some kind of ANC?

[MathOfInsects]

1 minute ago, Reezekeys said:

 

I can only tell you that when I move the slider they label "reduce ambient sounds" from minimum to maximum, a fair portion of the audio I hear - mostly background noise in the mid & higher frequencies –  disappears almost completely. It sure sounds like some kind of noise cancellation to me. It's not near the same as the pods' true ANC mode where almost all the outside sound goes away - but the effect is very noticeable. What kind of DSP would that be if not some kind of ANC?

I think it's a gate. 

[Ibarch]

5 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Does Apple specifically say they are not using any ANC in transparency mode? I can only tell you that when I move the slider they label "reduce ambient sounds" from minimum to maximum, a fair portion of the audio I hear - mostly background noise in the mid & higher frequencies –  disappears almost completely. It sure sounds like some kind of noise cancellation to me. It's not near the same as the pods' true ANC mode where almost all the outside sound goes away - but the effect is very noticeable. What kind of DSP would that be if not some kind of ANC?

 

It is all speculation. I have no real idea what is going on. 

 

Could be band pass filters, shelfs, gates. Could be noise cancellation. Don't really know 🤔

[Reezekeys]

2 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

I think it's a gate

 

I'm gonna have to disagree with that, sorry! I'm wearing them right now in the United lounge at San Diego. Gates open and close and I don't hear any of that. I'm gonna revise my description though - listening closely, it could be a high-pass or bandpass filter.

[MathOfInsects]

7 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

I'm gonna have to disagree with that, sorry! I'm wearing them right now in the United lounge at San Diego. Gates open and close and I don't hear any of that. I'm gonna revise my description though - listening closely, it could be a high-pass or bandpass filter.

I don't think it's frequency based, I think it just sets a floor. But more important, that is my town, where I am typing from right now, and you should tell me next time you're here!

[Reezekeys]

Ahh sorry! I'll definitely let you know the next time. It was a great gig last night - the Rady shell at Jacobs Park is for sure one of the best venues we've played. Killer sound and great crew. And I was told the weather this weekend was uncharacteristically great too!

[Ibarch]

Off to band practice. Will by trying out my Galaxy Buds. 

[aronnelson]

From that article posted: "The Apple Watch is able to reflect the noise level exposure I’m experiencing instead of the environmental noise level when connected to AirPods"

I didn't know this. Will try it.

[aronnelson]

I got the Air Pods Pro 2, and maybe there's no advantage to the Pro 2 as the first generation seems to do the custom transparency as well. 

In any case, yes, it keeps my loud guitar down to 85dB with peaks of 87db.

Will try it with the band and see. Despite trying to get the beta of the Air Pods, my software has not updated so I'm using the shipping software.

So far it's working well.

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, aronnelson said:

I got the Air Pods Pro 2, and maybe there's no advantage to the Pro 2 as the first generation seems to do the custom transparency as well. 

 

Both generations have transparency mode but the first generation Pros lacks "adaptive" transparency, i.e., the limiter that kept your guitar volume down – so there is indeed a big advantage to the Pro 2s over the 1st generation.

 

Confusingly, "Adaptive Audio" is Apple's term for a new feature coming later this year but again, only for the Airpods Pro 2nd gen buds. I had hoped it would allow more control over the noise cancellation as right now that mode is pretty much unusable in a music listening context - it cancels too much over most of the frequency range. The current adaptive transparency mode is great (imo) for gigs that don't get super loud, but any real hearing protection is a function of the silicone tips sealing your ears, i.e., passive (the limiting done by the "adaptive" transparency definitely helps some - but may not be enough for very loud situations). Unfortunately, although Apple calls the new adaptive audio feature a "blend" of transparency and noise cancelling, it appears the feature just switches between the two modes, depending on what's going on around you.

[MathOfInsects]

That's a bummer. Though come to think of it, how *would* the ideal solution of having (say) a slider along the range of cancellation to transparency work? You can't partially cancel a wave. I suppose that the "transparency" part could be overlaid, as long as it was downstream of the phase cancellation. That seems like it would need a new version of the Airpods (that is, something other than a software fix). I hope they end up at this as an option someday.

[aronnelson]

Thanks for that clarification, OK then I guess the "adaptive" transparency is the real feature for me. When I was using Etymotics, I only went with the 15dB reduction as the 20 was too much and muffled the tone too much as well. I think the Air Pods Pro will do a great job - if my early tests are an indication.

Also, music in Hawaii is WAY SOFTER than the levels I used to play in the Bay Area.  I used to blow up speakers in San Jose!

[bfields]

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

That's a bummer. Though come to think of it, how *would* the ideal solution of having (say) a slider along the range of cancellation to transparency work? You can't partially cancel a wave.

You can't?  I'm no expert on how this stuff actually works in practice, just, naively, the math seems to work out--if the original wave is f(t), instead of adding -f(t) to it, add -(1/2)f(t) to it, and you should end up with (1/2)f(t), right?

[Reezekeys]

With Bidule, all (ok, most!) things audio are possible. I quickly rigged up a setup to test if varying the amount of out-of-phase audio mixed with the in-phase stream varied the resulting level - it does. My little experiment consisted of a stereo audio file player playing an mp3 through two stereo channels, one with the phases flipped. When both channels are at the same level, cancellation is total and there's no sound. Change the level of one of them a bit and the audio starts to become audible. The more the diff between the in-phase and out-of-phase audio stream, the louder the resulting audio.

 

So, partial noise-cancellation is not only possible, but should be easy. Of course Apple wants to tout their NC as "best" so you know they're gonna max it. I wonder if Apple might expose a parameter to developers allowing them to vary the same parameter I did?

 

[MathOfInsects]

It makes sense once I think about it, for sure. It was just the variable of the cx being on unpredictable input that squirreled me a bit. But I suppose if you can cancel completely, you can cancel incompletely. Thanks for running the For Dummies experiment.

[Ibarch]

There are various ways this can work, including reducing the level of reversed phase signal or taking a full noised cancelled signal then adding parts of an ambient signal back in again. 

 

The clever bit would be the algorithms that can vary the different elements automatically depending on the current environment. 

 

It is hard to make an informed comment on Apple's plans, most of what is written is more speculation than fact about what they are doing. Coupled with their habit of marketing  inventing their own terms to describe common technologies, I think we will have to wait and see, I mean hear, what comes out. 

 

I will be surprised if they release anything revolutionary. Their noise cancelling tech has lagged behind the likes of Sony and Bose. There are already products out there doing this blended ambient/noise cancelled signals, although maybe not the active element. If anyone wants to sponsor a full study, I'm happy to purchase lots of top end ear buds to research this on behalf of my fellow forumites. 

[RABid]

14 hours ago, aronnelson said:

I got the Air Pods Pro 2, and maybe there's no advantage to the Pro 2 as the first generation seems to do the custom transparency as well. 

As I understand it, the Pro 2 is supposed to have improved sound quality which I would consider an advantage. I plan to order a set, not for stage use, but for home studio use. My sister stays with me now, and I don't like composing on computer or even practicing musical instruments when I know someone is listening. I use the Max now but I don't like having other sounds totally blocked. If adaptive will let me hear when someone speaks to me or when the doorbell rings, that will be great. It seems that I am frequently apologizing to friends and neighbors who say they ring the door bell and no one answers. The trick will be finding a simple way to connect the Air Pods to keyboards, Line 6 pedals and my Aerophone.

 

Edit: Looks like people are making bluetooth adapters that plug into headphone jacks. That should work.

 

Does anyone know how much latency the Pro 2's have while using adaptive?

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, RABid said:

I use the Max now but I don't like having other sounds totally blocked. If adaptive will let me hear when someone speaks to me or when the doorbell rings, that will be great.

 

Airpods Max has the transparency feature - just not the "adaptive" transparency that engages a limiter when outside sounds get loud. The Max should work fine for people speaking or doorbells ringing.

 

2 hours ago, RABid said:

The trick will be finding a simple way to connect the Air Pods to keyboards, Line 6 pedals and my Aerophone.

 

Edit: Looks like people are making bluetooth adapters that plug into headphone jacks. That should work.

 

Does anyone know how much latency the Pro 2's have while using adaptive?

 

Adaptive or not, I think you'll find the latency unacceptable for playing virtual instruments. I'm almost certain this is the case with all bluetooth earbuds or headphones.

[Reezekeys]

5 hours ago, Ibarch said:

There are already products out there doing this blended ambient/noise cancelled signals, although maybe not the active element.

 

How would this be done without an active element? If you're going to blend ambient sound into the earpieces, it seems to me you'd need microphones and active circuitry for that.

 

I'm also curious as to what these other products you mentioned are.

[jerrythek]

I’m not responding to the latest part of the discussion, but I went to a local club Saturday to hear a new band, and had a table up pretty close to the stage. I tried my Pro2s as has been suggested and it definitely helped. The Adaptive feature allowed the music to come through much better than noise cancelling did (no surprise), and I kept checking the overall level and sound quality by taking a bud out for a moment and then putting it back in again. A very successful solution - thanks for hipping me/us to this!

 

Jerry

[Ibarch]

58 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

How would this be done without an active element? If you're going to blend ambient sound into the earpieces, it seems to me you'd need microphones and active circuitry for that.

 

I'm also curious as to what these other products you mentioned are.

 

You are wanting details and facts now? I thought this was an Internet forum 😊

 

My Sony WF-1000XM3 headphones have a slider to alter the amount of ambient noise and noise cancellation. I will post a screenshot later, I have to have the headphones connected before the app will show this and I left them at home. 

These also can use GPS to remember  locations where you want full noise cancelling, and also to switch on Ambient mode when it detects movement, so you don't need to remember. The main use case they sell is to add traffic noise above your Spotify playlist when you leave the cafe and head for home. 

 

The ambient sound is coming from the voice mics in the buds, the same as used for picking up your voice for phone calls. This is fed back into the headphone outout when Ambient mode is switched on. This is, I assume, the same as what Apple would call transparency. 

 

The devil in the detail would be the active bit. I don't know what Apple do here, it is mere speculation. I also don't know whether Sony or Bose or Anke or any other manufacturer are doing something already like this. My Sonys are 3 years old I think, and I haven't checked newer models. 

 

I got a pair of Samsung Galaxy buds this year free with my new phone. They have some ambient mode stuff too. I would be suprised to find many mid level buds without this feature, never mind the premium end of the market. 

[Reezekeys]

As usual, you've pointed out how Apple copies other companies' tech, assigns a new buzzword to them, then uses their slick, expertly produced "events" to introduce these features with every superlative adjective in Roget's Thesaurus - "amazing", "incredible", etc... It's kind of a joke.

 

Those Sony buds look pretty cool with the slider that seems to morph between noise cancelling and transparency. Let's say you go to a concert with a painfully loud PA blasting your eardrums - can you start off at 100% noise-cancelling, then slowly move the slider towards transparency to get the volume just right? I imagine a lot of musicians with hearing issues would go for such a product. I have hopes a developer (hint hint!) can come up with an app for my Airpod Pros that might do that! 🙂 

[EricBarker]

Bought some Saturday at Costco (had an end-of-year coupon). WOW. This changes everything. I can hear my voice! I sing quieter (GOOD), and it exposes all my weak points (GOOD), and it saves my hearing (GREAT). But this is the first earplug option where I really feel like I can hear and feel the music in a meaningful way. I played 5 gigs with them this weekend and it was glorious!

 

I have yet to try the transparency settings recommended by Redzekeys. Gonna try them out!

[kenheeter]

Eric, was it the Air pods that you got?