That Leslie sim sucks

[Baldwin Funster]

40 minutes ago, mrk7421 said:

......A tonewheel Hammond does not have stereo percussion. That is the problem.

 

Sorry

 

 

How about dropping one channel of the sim and going mono? Then your percussion wouldn't be stereo.

 

I've been doing that lately and I was surprised that b3x still sounds pretty full and animated in mono anyways.

 

I haven't used percussion much cause this band is mostly RnB and the tunes don't seem to have much hammond percussion in that genre. 

[JohnDoe]

42 minutes ago, mrk7421 said:

I have Mojo, HX3, Viscount and Numa 1. Numa 1 affects the organ tone less than any of them. Numa 1 also has excellent chorus vibrato.

 

 

I hope that Elvio Previati, who "made" KeyB organ and Numa organ1, has managed to implement that sound to the new Viscount Soul!

[elif]

I've used a Ventilator with two powered monitors on a single stand, angled apart 60-90 degrees.  I emailed Guido Kirsch about this and he told me that's how it was intended to be used (!)..  I don't know if it sounds better or worse at distance -- I've only heard it sitting in front of it.

 

Depending on how the simulation was done, it makes some sense.  If the simulation was intended to sound like a Leslie recorded with two microphones spaced with a 90 angular degrees about axis of the center of rotation (the horn say), then it makes sense for loudspeakers to be place in the same orientation.

 

I while back I experimented with Leslie a sim using a set of 16 impulse responses captured for both horn and drum at 16 rotational coordinates.  The outputs of these 16 FIRs were crossfaded as a function of the rotation. To create two outputs, two of these ran simultaneously, one 90 degrees behind the other.  It sounded like a Ventilator.

[The Real MC]

Ah, another endless thread where there is no universal agreement on the perfect Leslie simulator.

[KuruPrionz]

8 minutes ago, The Real MC said:

Ah, another endless thread where there is no universal agreement on the perfect Leslie simulator.

Especially when the only perfect Leslie is a real Leslie in a certain room but not in any other kind of room. 

 

I'm OK with others lugging a massive cabinet around for whatever absurd reason they may have. I don't know anybody that does this but I would not help them move the damn thing or care much one way or the other about that sound vs. the "rotary" sound on my Peavey guitar amp. Just a bunch of "swirly-whirly" in the end, either way. 

[The Real MC]

6 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

I'm OK with others lugging a massive cabinet around for whatever absurd reason they may have. I don't know anybody that does this but I would not help them move the damn thing or care much one way or the other about that sound vs. the "rotary" sound on my Peavey guitar amp. Just a bunch of "swirly-whirly" in the end, either way. 

You're a guitar player not a Hammond player.  A guitar player's needs for a rotating speaker is far different from a Hammond player, so just how does that give you license to diminish our standards?  You may not care about authenticity, but we Hammond players do.  I have just about had it with guitar players who are not Hammond players dictating what our level of quality should be.

[KuruPrionz]

33 minutes ago, The Real MC said:

You're a guitar player not a Hammond player.  A guitar player's needs for a rotating speaker is far different from a Hammond player, so just how does that give you license to diminish our standards?  You may not care about authenticity, but we Hammond players do.  I have just about had it with guitar players who are not Hammond players dictating what our level of quality should be.

As I said above, you can do whatever you like. I've lugged Hammonds, I've lugged Leslies. Not doing that anymore, have fun!!!!

 

I've sat on top of a huge Leslie and played a 12 string guitar in the middle of a fairly small music store. That was magic. 

I've heard bands with the Hammond/Leslie combination too many times to mention, even been in a couple. Standing close near the back wall of the stage, you can hear that Leslie sound. Out in the audience, sitting 20 feet way, you might as well close your eyes and guess if it's a Leslie or a sim/pedal. 

At an arena with 7,000 people, it's a mic'ed up Leslie every time and nobody can hear the difference at all. Been there, done that. 

[AnotherScott]

14 hours ago, mrk7421 said:

A tonewheel Hammond does not have stereo percussion. That is the problem.

The percussion on a tonewheel Hammond is exactly as stereo (or exactly as non-stereo, depending on how you look at it) as the rest of the Hammond sound.  The Hammond organ is an inherently mono instrument. The Leslie takes that sound (percussion and all) and spins it through moving speakers. Unless you're standing quite close to it, the entirety of the sound is essentially mono, other than picking up stereo-ness from the room reflections (unless you're playing outdoors, in which case you don't even get that). But regardless, on the real thing, the main tone and the percussion tone (which is  itself basically just one of the component drawbar tones with a different envelope) all spins the same, and neither is more or less stereo than the other.

[CEB]

There is some real funny stuff here. 

 

[Baldwin Funster]

Percussion through the leslie sim doesn't bother me as much as distortion when the leslie is on fast. It gets kinda muddy compared to say when Uriah Heep does it.

I'll use any excuse to post this.

[Tom Williams]

7 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

I would not help them move the damn thing or care much one way or the other about that sound vs. the "rotary" sound on my Peavey guitar amp. Just a bunch of "swirly-whirly" in the end, either way. 

Huh.  I pity you poor guitarists, having to tote those unnecessarily bulky amps. We Modern Musicians have effects in our instruments, allowing them to go directly into the PA.  

<Pthuff> primitive onstage speaker boxes....

[KuruPrionz]

2 hours ago, Tom Williams said:

Huh.  I pity you poor guitarists, having to tote those unnecessarily bulky amps. We Modern Musicians have effects in our instruments, allowing them to go directly into the PA.  

<Pthuff> primitive onstage speaker boxes....

We have all the toys anybody would ever need in compact, lightweight boxes. A Tech 21 Fly Rig will fit easily into a gig bag pocket, just for one. 18oz, under 12" long and lots of options to choose from.

https://www.tech21nyc.com/products/flyrig/

 

The days of bulky amps are gone, people still use them but they don't have to if they don't want to. Sort of like how only a few keyboardists tote Hammonds and Leslies except that I've never had an amp that big or heavy. 

 

I can carry one gig bag with backpack straps to a gig, it's all a guitarist needs. 

Sorry Tom, your post is meaningless. Times have changed. 

 

[CyberGene]

To add to the original topic of emulations, it’s the same with acoustic pianos. There’s no way you can emulate the huge soundboard radiating sound in any direction from its entire surface, through speakers. They’ve attempted multi-speaker setups and Kawai add soundboards to some of their more expensive digital pianos but it’s wrong on many levels since they replay the regular samples through that soundboard driver instead of generating the raw string-vibrations, and so it sounds nothing like a real acoustic piano. 
 

That being said, digital pianos emulate a recorded piano sound pretty well. Because that’s what digital pianos actually are: recorded samples from real pianos.

[KuruPrionz]

9 hours ago, CyberGene said:

To add to the original topic of emulations, it’s the same with acoustic pianos. There’s no way you can emulate the huge soundboard radiating sound in any direction from its entire surface, through speakers. They’ve attempted multi-speaker setups and Kawai add soundboards to some of their more expensive digital pianos but it’s wrong on many levels since they replay the regular samples through that soundboard driver instead of generating the raw string-vibrations, and so it sounds nothing like a real acoustic piano. 
 

That being said, digital pianos emulate a recorded piano sound pretty well. Because that’s what digital pianos actually are: recorded samples from real pianos.

True. This is to say nothing regarding pipe organs!!!!

My second "gig" was as a 16 year old. Somehow the band I was in got a gig playing a "rock Mass" at a nearby Catholic Church. 

They had a pipe organ and we got permission to use it. I played bass until our last song - Court of the Crimson King by King Crimson. Then, the lead guitarist switched to pipe organ, I switched to lead guitar and rhythm guitarist switched to bass. I can still hear the sound of that pipe organ in my head, glorious! Bearing in mind it was in a large, ambient space, the sound was HUGE and wonderful. I've heard excellent recordings of pieces by Bach played on great pipe organs in great rooms in Europe and they just don't sound the same as the real thing. Nothing does, once you are putting things through speakers in a variety of different sounding rooms all bets are off. Authenticity simply isn't possible. I do understand that a keyboardist probably hears the Leslie in close proximity sounding like they want a Leslie to sound but that is only in close proximity and the audience does not get the same experience. In fact, audiences constantly get a variety of experiences based on different listening environments, the same room with every seat filled sounds very different from less than half the seats filled. I've heard that difference many times, both from the stage and out in the room. 

 

So all this fuss about Leslie speakers is amusing to me. I suppose one can split hairs on the belly of a gnat but why not just play music?

[Anderton]

Does anyone here DIY their own Leslie with a combination of other effects (delay, tremolo, EQ, cabs, etc.)? I find it easier to get a satisfying (although not authentic) effect that way.

[CEB]

6 hours ago, Anderton said:

Does anyone here DIY their own Leslie with a combination of other effects (delay, tremolo, EQ, cabs, etc.)? I find it easier to get a satisfying (although not authentic) effect that way.

Guitar … yes. Guitar doesn’t work well through a twin rotor Leslie. Guitar player sometimes just think it does because of a bad Jedi Mind trick.   The crossover cutoff is 800 hz and 80% of the sound from a Leslie cab should come from the bottom rotar. Guitar doesn’t have the harmonic guts to drive a Leslie. A chorus pedal, uni vibe or a single rotor works way better.   The only way for a guitar to pull it off on a stock dual rotor cab is if the guitar is naked in the mix. 

[The Real MC]

4 hours ago, CEB said:

Guitar … yes. Guitar doesn’t work well through a twin rotor Leslie. Guitar player sometimes just think it does because of a bad Jedi Mind trick.   The crossover cutoff is 800 hz and 80% of the sound from a Leslie cab should come from the bottom rotar. Guitar doesn’t have the harmonic guts to drive a Leslie. A chorus pedal, uni vibe or a single rotor works way better.   I’m only way to pull it off a stock dual rotor sound well is if the guitar is naked in the mix. 

The V21 treble driver is far from high fidelity, but was intentionally chosen as it sounded good with a tonewheel organ.

Guitars don't sound good through that treble driver (there are exceptions), which is why Leslie offered models with bottom rotor only.

[The Real MC]

5 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

So all this fuss about Leslie speakers is amusing to me. I suppose one can split hairs on the belly of a gnat but why not just play music?

 

Again, you're a GUITAR PLAYER not a Hammond player.

What I really find amusing is that guitar players don't like anyone telling them to change their sound, yet here you are telling us to change our sound.

[Baldwin Funster]

Listen to Buddy Guy on Jr Wells Hoodoo Man album. The story is that Mr. Friendly Chap's amp broke down during the session and he had to use the studios leslie to record half the album. It isn't a conventional blues guitar sound to be sure but he made it work in the context of those songs. I believe he wasn't just spinning the sound of another amp, I'm pretty sure he was using the leslie amp as the sole amplification, which is not how guitarists usually use a leslie or a leslie sim.

[KuruPrionz]

7 minutes ago, The Real MC said:

 

Again, you're a GUITAR PLAYER not a Hammond player.

What I really find amusing is that guitar players don't like anyone telling them to change their sound, yet here you are telling us to change our sound.

 

I'm glad you find it amusing!!!

 

Please quote where I am telling you to do anything. 

 

 

 

[The Real MC]

On 5/20/2023 at 4:27 PM, KuruPrionz said:

39 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

I'm glad you find it amusing!!!

 

Please quote where I am telling you to do anything. 

 

Quote

I'm OK with others lugging a massive cabinet around for whatever absurd reason they may have.

...I would not help them move the damn thing or care much one way or the other about that sound

 

There you have it - belittling language to ridicule our standard of authenticity.  Refusing to help unless we sacrifice our sound for something more compact.  Indirectly telling us that our standards should be lowered.

 

I think you would be much happier back in the Guitar forum.

 

[KuruPrionz]

42 minutes ago, The Real MC said:

 

There you have it - belittling language to ridicule our standard of authenticity.  Refusing to help unless we sacrifice our sound for something more compact.  Indirectly telling us that our standards should be lowered.

 

I think you would be much happier back in the Guitar forum.

 

You couldn't find one single sentence where I told you what to do. 🤣

That's because I did not do what your fabricated (and apparently endless) claim purports. 

So much for "your standard of authenticity". 

 

I've mostly met fun, engaging, high spirited folks on Keyboard Corner, people who love music and don't get snarled up in trying to propagate lies about other posters. 

I think you would be happier if you stopped trying to spread poison created entirely in your own imagination. 

 

 

[The Real MC]

42 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

You couldn't find one single sentence where I told you what to do.

 

I will not submit to evasion.  You know exactly what you said.

 

You're not a Hammond player, period.  This discussion is over.

[o0Ampy0o]

4 hours ago, Jr. Deluxe said:

...I believe he wasn't just spinning the sound of another amp, I'm pretty sure he was using the leslie amp as the sole amplification, which is not how guitarists usually use a leslie or a leslie sim.

Is that common? I have not considered this and not heard it described. I was thinking I have observed them foot-switched between Leslie and standard amp so the Leslie, when activated, is the sole amp. When using a Leslie SIM in the form of a pedal I figured the pedal was making the amp a Leslie rather than making the amp that amp being run through a Leslie. It has already been established that the result is not of a real Leslie in 3D space but a Leslie through a PA or speaker of the sound system you listen with. But that result can be of the guitar straight to a Leslie rather than a guitar to an amp ran through a Leslie speaker. But observation lacks explanation of what must be articulated to know it is taking place.

[Baldwin Funster]

16 minutes ago, o0Ampy0o said:

Is that common? I have not considered this and not heard it described. I was thinking I have observed them foot-switched between Leslie and standard amp so the Leslie, when activated, is the sole amp. When using a Leslie SIM in the form of a pedal I figured the pedal was making the amp a Leslie rather than making the amp that amp being run through a Leslie. It has already been established that the result is not of a real Leslie in 3D space but a Leslie through a PA or speaker of the sound system you listen with. But that result can be of the guitar straight to a Leslie rather than a guitar to an amp ran through a Leslie speaker. But observation lacks explanation of what must be articulated to know it is taking place.

Well I'm sure different people prefer different things but when I plugged a guitar directly into a leslie amp it was pretty underwhelming. The guitar signal was too low to really give you some SRV grit so all you got was a clean and not loud spin effect. It would get lost in a band context. I don't know how say Peter Frampton did it on F C Alive but I didn't sound like that. I suspect he is preamping and or using a guitar amp and just using the Leslie motorized speakers.

[elif]

11 minutes ago, Jr. Deluxe said:

Well I'm sure different people prefer different things but when I plugged a guitar directly into a leslie amp it was pretty underwhelming. The guitar signal was too low to really give you some SRV grit so all you got was a clean and not loud spin effect. It would get lost in a band context. I don't know how say Peter Frampton did it on F C Alive but I didn't sound like that. I suspect he is preamping and or using a guitar amp and just using the Leslie motorized speakers.

What Leslie could you plug a guitar into directly?  This  was with a combo pedal right?

[Baldwin Funster]

22 minutes ago, elif said:

What Leslie could you plug a guitar into directly?  This  was with a combo pedal right?

At that time 30 years ago I had never seen a leslie before but I vaguely recall a combo pedal but my boss who owned and set it up for me had all kinds of rickety homemade cables with dried out electrical tape peeling off so in all I really don't know what was happening. It was a fun sound to jam on but like I said you wouldn't be sounding like Frampton or Clapton without some more preamping.

[o0Ampy0o]

59 minutes ago, Jr. Deluxe said:

Well I'm sure different people prefer different things but when I plugged a guitar directly into a leslie amp it was pretty underwhelming. The guitar signal was too low to really give you some SRV grit so all you got was a clean and not loud spin effect. It would get lost in a band context. I don't know how say Peter Frampton did it on F C Alive but I didn't sound like that. I suspect he is preamping and or using a guitar amp and just using the Leslie motorized speakers.

 

Interesting you say Peter Frampton. I saw him several times live and he had the Leslie on stage and you can see it in his Detroit concert DVD. I just thought he was switching between amps. Neal Schon would have different Marshall stacks he switched between for different applications. Apples and oranges I am learning. I read how they rented George Harrison a Leslie when he did the riffs for Cream. I guess they had regular amps around but needed to rent a Leslie.

[Anderton]

I'll have to re-visit guitar with Leslie sometime. I used it as a sound effects thing on an album back in 1970, and that was the end of it. I mostly use Leslies on synth pads and (forgive me, for I have sinned) FM synths. That may seem like heresy to Hammond players, but to me, the Leslie is just another cool effect. 

 

The reason I mentioned the "DIY" Leslie is because the concept can be taken further than a spinning mechanical object. The latest Helix update added an emulation of the Yamaha RA-200. Now, that was a weirdass rotating speaker. Line 6 made what I thought was an intelligent design decision - they didn't emulate the cab that came with the original. In fact, they left the cab off entirely. Given that Helix has a zillion cabs, I found that I greatly preferred some cabs compared to others.

 

In general, I enjoy deconstructing sounds into components. That's why I'm such a big fan of multiband distortion. It sounds fabulous with guitar, but keyboards have a potentially much wider frequency range, and I wasn't able to get a satisfactory keyboard distortion sound (disclaimer: to my ears!) with traditional broadband distortion. 

 

 

[Tom Williams]

21 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

Sorry Tom, your post is meaningless. Times have changed.

(1) Aww -- I was having so much fun at your expense!

 

(2) I wish you would talk to the guitarists around here.  They are all addicted to their amps, and refuse to go direct.

 

Cheers!