Super Locrian

[Floyd Tatum]

On 5/2/2023 at 1:18 AM, CyberGene said:

I was gonna ask what that secret scale is but then I realized it’s a gotcha trap and a running gag around the forum where anybody asking that question would be answered: it’s secret, didn’t you read! 😀

By the way, I don't want to be obtuse, so I'll answer your question directly.   As I understand it, the major version of Barry Harris's scale is the basic 7-note C major scale (for example), with the addition of one note: G# (or Ab).  So, the new, 8-note scale is:  C D E F G G# A B C.    He calls it the bebop scale.    The beauty of this scale is not just the scale itself, which sounds pretty good, but it's about moving chords around.   You can take a four-note C6 chord (C E G A) and move it up and down that scale, and it sounds great.   You can do that with a regular C major scale too, but it just doesn't sound as hip.   The minor version of the scale changes the E to an E flat.   There's much more to BH's method, but that's the basics of it, as I understand it.

Jazz+ you're welcome to add your knowledge here, if you wish.  If I'm wrong about this, I don't mind being told as much.

There, I just reduced BH's method to one paragraph! 

[CyberGene]

43 minutes ago, Floyd Tatum said:

So, the new, 8-note scale is:  C D E F G G# A B C

Interesting, thanks. So, any chords that are made from this scale (I’d say made from thirds but they are apparently not thirds) are always C6 and Ddim. There’s some beauty in it although I’d say it’s more a synthetic way of approaching a targeted be-bop paradigm (similar to other be-bop scales where the idea is that you outline chord notes on down-beat when playing the scale sequentially). 
 

Once again, thanks. I thought it was all a joke but apparently it’s a legit scale and approach 👍🏻

[MathOfInsects]

Minor third over major chord all day long.

 

Major third over minor chord? I'd have to put some time/thought in to pull that off confidently. I do hint at it sometimes, particularly if I run (for example) an arpeggiated dom-7 tritone over the tonic (either the tritone to the tonic, or to the relative major), but at least for me that's a momentary lapse of reason, rather than an extended statement majoring that 3. 

 

And as I type that I realize...oh, that's what Al's A pent was: tritone to Cm's relative major. You just camped there for a night instead of driving by and going, "Oh, scenery!" Clever! Dastardly! Inconceivable!

[MathOfInsects]

Barry Harris once told my sister she had "pep."

[CEB]

Major 3rd over minor 3rd harmonies work but it does have more bite.   I like it to be percussive with it and not spend much time on it. Sort of how Terry Adams treats tonal clusters.   But for better or worse, Terry Adams of NRBQ was influence of mine. 

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, CEB said:

Major 3rd over minor 3rd harmonies work but it does have more bite.   I like it to be percussive with it and not spend much time on it. Sort of how Terry Adams treats tonal clusters.   But for better or worse, Terry Adams of NRBQ was influence of mine. 

Sure thing, but unless I'm misunderstanding I'd put that more in the "passing tone" category, than something extended and modal. Right?

I saw Terry Adams take a one-note solo with NRBQ--held one note down for the whole set of choruses, just pushed it down at the beginning of the form and held it through several passes through--and I've unfairly held it against that great player ever since. 

[bfields]

"Mixolydian a minor third above the fifth" is an awfully convoluted way to say "minor".

[PianoMan51]

The discussion about (what I think as) the Altered Scale has led me to think of it as the ‘gateway ‘ chord for half-step side slipping. 

Here’s how I get there.

 

1st, reimagine the altered scale as a major scale one half step below the root of your dominant chord, but with the root of that new scale raised a half step to be the same note as the root of your dominant.

 

For example a C7 (dominant) altered has a B natural major scale played above it, but the B natural note is always raised by a half step to C natural. Confusing? Yes. But it basically opens the creative door to play a scale a half step down from the dominant 7th. 
 

And then of course you could think of it being a melodic minor a half step above the dominant as we started the discussion. 
 

As usual when I finally write out some new grand insight it reads like a medieval treatise on angels and pin heads.

[Floyd Tatum]

Since we're talking about BH, here's something y'all might want to listen to: a BH record, "The Bird of Red And Gold" recorded in 1979.   To get a feel for Barry Harris's playing, listen to the whole album, it's available on YouTube.   Here's an interesting cut: the title song, where Barry both plays piano and sings a song he wrote, "The Bird of Red and Gold" (which is also the name of this album).    He doesn't usually sing, so this is special.