Am I crazy? VB3M sounds better than....

[ABECK]

I'm in the process of sorting out which gear I'm bringing to a gig this weekend and have been A/B ing my tonewheel options.  For transport and setup, my K2700 with iPad and VB3M would be easiest.  But, I have plenty of setup time and a good stage footprint, so I was thinking my DMC122/Gemini would be a nice addition.  I love having a full-time tonewheel available, without having to rely on splits or quick patch changes when using a single board.  But I'll be damned if the VB3M doesn't sound better to my ears than the Gemini organ with the 2nd gen Leslie.  However, I've done a bunch of tweaking to the rotary settings, so I figured maybe I bastardized it along the way.  So I disabled the rotary and plugged in my Vent II.  Dammit the VB3M still sounds better.  Maybe my ears are getting shitty.  I can't come to terms with a $15 app sounding better than a $500 pedal.  I'm going to keep tweaking to see if I can get the sound I want, as having the DMC122 would be a better tactile experience than the weighted K2700.  (And for those wondering why I don't just trigger the iPad from the DMC - I just can't on principal alone.  lol)

[CyberGene]

17 minutes ago, ABECK said:

$15 app sounding better than a $500 pedal.

It runs on an iPad with a CPU that is a few light years ahead of what’s in that pedal and I don’t even know what that pedal is. Of course the iPad will be better sounding if the app developer took advantage of the powerful CPU. 

[Stokely]

You'd have to add the ipad cost to the 15 bucks, though of course many of have ipads/iphones already   

There's value (how much is up to each person) in having a dedicated hardware unit for music vs a generic device.  I'm still mostly a dinosaur in that regard for live, though for home studio I'm 100% in the box and you couldn't pry me out with a crowbar.

[Delaware Dave]

When I purchased the Gemini module back in 2016 I really liked the leslie.  I had a show a week after I purchased the module so I didn't have time to adjust anything, just created the presets, rolled the dice and did the show.  The leslie sounded great!  Then came the improvements and, to me, the leslie has gotten progressively worse with the improvements.  I have the Burn pedal and the original leslie sounded very much like the Burn does.  This past weekend I used the Vent, and once again (for about the 50th time) I A/B'd the Vent vs. the Gemini internal sim.  As you push the expression pedal forward the Vent raises the bass and the highs more than the midrange creating a "smile" curve to the EQ of the sound.  The internal leslie raises the volume overall but doesn't create the smile curve as much as the Vent does, so the sound of the internal leslie in the Gemini is more mid-rangey as compared to the Vent on expression pedal depression. You might be able to go into the effects section and add an EQ, lowering the midrange so that when you kick in the expression pedal you'll get a smile curve on the EQ, the downside is that you will also get the smile curve when you pull back on the pedal as well.     

 

One of the thoughts I had is to assign the mid EQ to the expression pedal but working in reverse.  The Mid EQ is controlled by CC#9.  With my Kurz I can have the expression pedal control multiple functions at the same time so that I can have it control CC#11 and CC#9 (in reverse) at the same time so as I depress the expression pedal CC#11 increases (as it should) and also decreases the Mid on the EQ  simulating more of what the Vent does.  I've been kicking this around this week, I figured out how to do it with my Kurz but my M-Audio controller doesn't have the ability for the expression pedal to control two CC's at the same time. I also don't like the expression pedal's reaction, I don't feel I get enough volume on depression, so when I just use the Kurz I also send a CC#7 that slightly increases the volume of the organ on depression and slightly decreases the volume when backing off the pedal while at the same time controlling CC#11.  So for the Kurz on pedal depression I would have it increase CC#11 normally, slightly increase volume through CC#7 and slightly decrease the mid EQ CC#9.  Moving the pedal back I would reverse everything meaning decrease CC#11 normally, slightly decrease the overall volume CC#7 and slightly raise the mid EQ CC#9 up.  The Kurz can do this easily (great controller) unfortunately my M-Audio cannot do more than one CC function for the expression pedal on a patch, so I'm stuck with CC#11 only unless I use a Midi Solution pedal controller on the M-Audio, also kicking that around as well, so that when the midi solutions pedal controller sees a CC#11 adjustment  it also adjusts CC#7 slightly and decreases CC#9 slightly.

[ABECK]

Interesting thought on the EQ.  I'll see if I can pick that up next time I use the Vent.  I'm going to keep tweaking until I can match what I'm hearing in the app that I like so much.  At the end of the day, I have no less than 3 really good options.  #FirstWorldProblems

[jpgxk3]

Interesting...I wrote to Crumar a couple weeks ago asking if they could/would "update" the Mojo 61 sim by adding in the sims from vb3m; dark cab, light cab, and a clean rotary like a 760 to give us parameter choice. Still waiting to hear back, but they've been hopping with the new update and cfx piano...I will contact again. There's just a little too much mid honk in the M61 sim, but I've got it to a point that I leave the Vent 2 out of the loop for now. Going back to the original Mojo dual, which I bought new from them direct in 2015, they did an update of 2.35 which wound up the sim too much in my opinion as well as a couple of other players here. I asked if I could go back to the 2.34 version and they gladly sent that "downdate" to me. Been happy with that for years, but now have a Burn pedal inline with that dual. still sounds great either way. DD and I have kicked this around too. Joe

[ElmerJFudd]

I'm thinking it's less a software discrepancy and more of a hardware one.  

 

Maybe something more appealing in the D/A on the iOS device and/or its audio interface verse what they chose for audio chipset on the gemini silicon?

 

Is the CPU on the iOS device more robust than the processor on the gemini card?  Maybe it's just running the engine better and offering more accuracy, especially in the higher frequencies.  

 

 

[analogholic]

Is VB3m the same as the original VB3?

 

I was trying out VB3 with Vent II, but it was so long ago that I don´t remember if I liked that combo better than the internal sim of VB3

 

Tried the Vent II also with KeyBduo Expander and it sounded terrible

 

[ABECK]

Not sure how close the underlying engine is.  I thought it was supposed to be the same.  But, there are much less tweaking options available (in my case, much less options to screw it up!)  To me, the light colored Leslie is the sweet spot.  Clarity and good drive.  I'm still tweaking my Gemini with the Vent and got it much closer, but there is a bit of low mid mud that I'm trying to tweak out.  I'm going to have both options at my gig, so it will be interesting to here how they compare in a live room.

[Delaware Dave]

4 hours ago, analogholic said:

Is VB3m the same as the original VB3?

 

I was trying out VB3 with Vent II, but it was so long ago that I don´t remember if I liked that combo better than the internal sim of VB3

 

Tried the Vent II also with KeyBduo Expander and it sounded terrible

 

 

I thought I had read somewhere where VB3M is VB3 version 1.4 but with parts of the GUI upgraded from the VB3-II release.

[ElmerJFudd]

9 minutes ago, Delaware Dave said:

 

I thought I had read somewhere where VB3M is VB3 version 1.4 but with parts of the GUI upgraded from the VB3-II release.

I remember reading that as well, probably here. 
 

from release notes we know what was done since 2018 to VBII. 

 

GSi VB3-II Release Notes REVISION HISTORY

 

October 12, 2018 - Version 1.1.1 - Organ model: Improved the keyclick and the cross-talk, introduced the "complex cross-talk on upper manual" - Organ model: Modified "OLD" resistor wire set to have a better drawbar balance on the top octave - Organ model: Added new resistor wire set that disables the foldback (Spinet style) - Rotary Speaker: Extended rotation speed and ramp time ranges, and now displayed in actual Hz and Seconds - The Pedal-to-Lower function can now work in both Overlay or in Split mode between the pedalboard and the lower manual - The CC#64 Pedal Speed functions now switches between FAST and <Stop or Slow> according to the previous Speed lever position - The CC#64 Pedal function can now also be completely disabled, letting CC #64 to be freely assigned - The Settings Panel now opens inside the main window and no longer creates a new pop-up window - Updated the PDF Manual with new informations, please have a look at it. - Minor optimizations and bugfixes that apparently will not please anyone except the developer himself

 

September 24, 2018 - Version 1.1.0 - Now VB3-II comes with GSiRotary, a Rotary Speaker emulation effect free to VB3-II registered users, available in 64 bit VST2, VST3, AU (OSX only) and Standalone for both Windows and OSX. - Added the Spring Reverb effect, which is connected before the rotary simulator and can be used along with the digital reverb - Added 7 new parameters to the Rotary Speaker, - New Tube Overdrive algorithm with an exclusive feature called "Tube feedback"

 

September 2, 2018 - Version 1.0.3 - Fixed problem with automation not being written to host when moving some controls from MIDI - Fixed problem that could cause the VST2 plugin crash in some OSX hosts - Minor optimizations August 7, 2018 - Version 1.0.2 - Added global setting to choose whether the editing windows should be displayed "always on top" (required by some hosts under OSX) - Fixed problem with parameters not being restored properly when reloading the plugin in some hosts - Changing the global tuning no longer requires VB3-II to be reloaded - Switching programs from within the built-in programmer now updates the host's program list properly - Added "all notes off" to GUI virtual keyboards - Minor optimizations across the whole program

 

July 19, 2018 - Version 1.0.1 - Added global setting "Lower Octave Up if Split" to shift lower manual by one octave when the split function is active - The MIDI CC assigned to the Rotary Speed lever now accepts values <32 for Slow, >95 for Fast and in the middle for Stop - Added functions to the FILES Menu for resetting the whole Bank or restoring the factory Bank - Responds to MIDI "All Notes Off" message (CC #123, value 0) - Changed mouse response to the Program label: left-click for opening the Program list, right click for editing the Program name - Fixed problem with upper manual responding on both channels 1 and 2 when swapping upper and lower channels - Fixed problem with editing windows not appearing on the foreground in some hosts under OSX - Fixed problem with the Program list not being downloaded correctly by some hosts

 

June 2, 2018 - Version 1.0.0 - First public release

 

[Baldwin Funster]

I may have to switch to VB3m myself. B3X is a naughty child that won't play nice with AUM or most other apps that I try to open when it's open.

If I follow a certain procedure I can get both b3x and streetlytron to work but streetlytron isn't on the menu for this band, GSI MiniOrchestra is.

[drawback]

3 hours ago, Jr. Deluxe said:

B3X is a naughty child that won't play nice with AUM or most other apps that I try to open when it's open.

 

Can you explain what's happening in a little more detail? 

[Baldwin Funster]

31 minutes ago, drawback said:

Can you explain what's happening in a little more detail? 

If I open b3x with another instrument app open, when I hit a couple of keys all I get is digital glitches.

It's the same thing if I open b3x first. 

It's the same thing if AUM is open with an app loaded and I load b3x.

 

Now if I open b3x in AUM by itself it works OK. The drawbars on my midi board move the onscreen drawbars, the assigned control flips the leslie ect.

But if I load a preset in the b3x app, it all goes crazy. Digital glitches on notes and worse glitches when I pull a slider to move an onscreen drawbar.

But if I leave the default preset alone, b3x seems to function in AUM. 

There's a little more odd behavior but that's the gist.