kwyn Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Can a headphone amp, specifically, a pm55p, take a feed off a powered speaker? The sound guy had a behringer xair running to 2 powered floor monitors. I took a feed of the 2nd one into my pm55p. I could hear but couldn't get the volume loud enough. Had to use the floor wedge. Why might this happen? Any solutions for next time? It's hard enough to hear keys already, but on an echoey stage, I need my IEMs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stokely Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 In theory that should work, but I'd think you want a "thru" on a speaker and not an output--that way your Rolls is just taking in the original line level signal and not depending on the powered speaker's amp and processing. Either might work. When I've been in a situation where I'm given a wedge but want to use my in-ears, I just disconnect the wedge entirely and take the cable over to my headphone amp (I also use a Rolls Pm55p). If they've got the cable tied down or just long enough to reach the speaker, you might need an extension. I have a slew of different adapters and extensions in my backup case for such occasions. I will say that unless I'm given control of my mix via wifi/app I don't use in-ears. If the sound engineer messes with my mix with a wedge it's not as big a deal as with in-ears (though the Rolls does thankfully have a limiter.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwyn Posted January 25, 2023 Author Share Posted January 25, 2023 Even from the output, and my pm55p cranked the sound was way too low. I don't know if those monitors had a thru or not. Can't remember. But even from the output of the speaker, shouldn't I have been able to get enough volume on the rolls? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stokely Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 I'd think so. Maybe some impedance mismatch using the output? As I mentioned, my first choice would be to bypass the speaker if possible. Unfortunately I've been in this same situation but had to share a monitor mix, so our guitarist was using the speaker. I didn't have volume issues with whatever speaker that was. The mix was absolutely terrible though! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delaware Dave Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 a small rolls mixer in between output source (the powered speaker output) should boost the input signal into the pm55p to an acceptable level. Quote 57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn Delaware Dave Exit93band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B4i Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 4 minutes ago, kwyn said: Even from the output, and my pm55p cranked the sound was way too low. I don't know if those monitors had a thru or not. Can't remember. But even from the output of the speaker, shouldn't I have been able to get enough volume on the rolls? Just checking, did you go into the line input of the pm55p? and was the output from the powered monitor a line out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B4i Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 9 minutes ago, Stokely said: I will say that unless I'm given control of my mix via wifi/app I don't use in-ears. If the sound engineer messes with my mix with a wedge it's not as big a deal as with in-ears (though the Rolls does thankfully have a limiter.) Agreed. Its easier to tolerate an "average" mix through a wedge than it is through in-ears. And yes a limiter is a must if someone else has the ability to turn what is going to you up 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwyn Posted January 25, 2023 Author Share Posted January 25, 2023 40 minutes ago, B4i said: Just checking, did you go into the line input of the pm55p? and was the output from the powered monitor a line out? I'm pretty sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Burgess Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 A thru on a powered speaker is usually in parallel to the input, so if he's sending a too quiet signal from the desk, and turning up the volume on the wedge, then it's maybe not enough to drive your mixer. Although, changing the pad to Mic level on the Rolls sounds like it should be enough… (assuming a lot of things including using a working XLR - XLR cable between speaker and your mixer/no phasing problems summing down to mono etc… Why not ask for a hotter signal straight from the XR18 straight to the Rolls? And, if he's kind - let you mix your own IEM mix? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 1 hour ago, kwyn said: The sound guy had a behringer xair running to 2 powered floor monitors. I took a feed of the 2nd one into my pm55p. I could hear but couldn't get the volume loud enough. Had to use the floor wedge. Why might this happen? Any solutions for next time? Yes, switch the PM55P's input to mic: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stokely Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 I'm pretty sure I have mine set to line (for an aux feed), though as mentioned it may be that the aux master wasn't turned up enough. I wish the PM55P had stereo options for both "mic" and "monitor". (I assume you can't send stereo on that XLR, I think it's only balanced mono). There is a similar Rolls unit that does--our bass player uses it--but it doesn't have a limiter and I definitely wanted that. C'mon Rolls! It's a handy little unit. I have mine with it's power supply affixed to a pedalboard with my Key Largo, with the two pre-connected (KL monitor out to PM55P monitor in). I had to get a little TRS adapter cable. For gigs with our XR18 I use my P16M simply because it allows for stereo panning, and we only have enough auxes for me to go mono. I'd love to go with just the PM55P but don't want to ditch stereo for 75% of our gigs! I have a Behringer P1 and P2 as backup options. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Burgess Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Just now, Stokely said: I'm pretty sure I have mine set to line (for an aux feed), though as mentioned it may be that the aux master wasn't turned up enough. I wish the P55 had stereo options for both "mic" and "monitor". (I assume you can't send stereo on that XLR, I think it's only balanced mono). There is a similar Rolls unit that does--our bass player uses it--but it doesn't have a limiter and I definitely wanted that. C'mon Rolls! About the stereo thing… The Behringer headphone amp I had once tried doing unbalanced stereo over a single XLR or something weird like that. Totally non standard. And needed adaptors to avoid phasing/losing a side issues etc. I'd run two cables for the privilege of stereo if the desk had enough sends! In the end, I went with wireless Sennheiser IEM transmitter in glorious stereo. Had plenty sends from our X32 Rack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stokely Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Yeah, it's why I wish we were still using our old QSC touchmix instead of the XR18....more sends and everyone could go stereo. As it is I would have to duel the bass player for 5 and 6, which he somehow claimed before I could 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 On my PM55P I run my stereo keys into the monitor input - I need to hear myself in stereo. The monitor guy sends me a feed via XLR into the mic input, set to line level. So I get kick, snare, hat, horns, guitar, and some vocals in glorious mono but I'm used to it. The kicker is that even if the Rolls box could take & deliver me a stereo signal from the monitor board, there's no way in hell I'm gonna get that from our guy - or anyone else doing monitors for the shows I do! I know it's doable if a band's sound gear & crew is self-contained or uses those individual "mix stations" like the Behringers or Avioms but I see those very rarely (and never on the road). Also, the mix stations I've seen offer a limited number of stereo feeds, most of the channels are mono. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stokely Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 If by mix stations you mean something like the P16M, it works by sending 16 channels over to you. Not sure if those 16 can actually include groups or auxes, we use way less than that at most shows so I just have each instrument on its own channel. Then I can pan and even eq a bit. I've been able to use it at a couple shows with a sound engineer, basically just saying "hey mind if I try using the Ultranet" on his XR18...worked by default so that was nice! I'm thinking of selling it and simplifying...going mono for other instruments isn't the end of the world and as you say sometimes it's the only option anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwyn Posted January 25, 2023 Author Share Posted January 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Reezekeys said: Yes, switch the PM55P's input to mic: I'll try it. Why mic and not line? Also, I'm hoping the limiter on this thing is decent. Never had it kick in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stokely Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Mic will simply amplify more I presume since it assumes it will be a lower signal. I wouldn't think it's ideal gain structure as an aux is normally line, so one turned down that low might end up being noisy. Then again it might just work great As always, don't switch this with headphones on! I echo the thought about the limiter. I've had the one on my Shure come on when I accidentally turned on the pack and had the volume way, way up (see point above about not having headphones on!). The limiter light was on and it was smashing the signal to oblivion. But I wonder just how quick and effective these limiters really are. They've got to be a really tiny little chip in there costing pennies extra, compared to say a hardware limiter that is much larger and more expensive. And I've thought about using one of those, but then things get complicated in how I actually incorporate it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 1 hour ago, kwyn said: I'll try it. Why mic and not line? A mic level signal is much lower than line level, so needs more gain to achieve the same volume in your ears. Setting the mic/line switch to mic will add that extra gain. Turn the volume knob all the way off before feeding audio into the mixer, then adjust to taste - it will definitely be louder! 1 hour ago, Stokely said: I echo the thought about the limiter. I've had the one on my Shure come on when I accidentally turned on the pack and had the volume way, way up (see point above about not having headphones on!). The limiter light was on and it was smashing the signal to oblivion. But I wonder just how quick and effective these limiters really are. They've got to be a really tiny little chip in there costing pennies extra, compared to say a hardware limiter that is much larger and more expensive. And I've thought about using one of those, but then things get complicated in how I actually incorporate it... A "tiny little chip" is technically hardware - but I know you meant a separate limiter! 🙂 I know I saw a schematic of the PM55P but can't find it now, and it's nowhere I see online, but iirc it uses a very simple circuit which I'm pretty sure is based on a diode - actually, that might be the entire limiter! If I run across it I'll add to this thread. Of course I have it switched on but have never heard it kick in - and I've had the levels up fairly loud too. My guess is that it (hopefully) cuts in when a really loud transient comes through - like when there's an "audio accident." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stokely Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 The one on my P16m has a threshold control so I've definitely been able to hear that if I turn it way down. Sounds awful but as long as it protects I'm good! I try my best to turn my ears as low as possible and still hear. That particular limiter I turn high enough so that it won't kick in at "normal" volumes. Two things that have caused my IEM headphone pack/amps to sound like crap--the limiter kicking on, or the batteries getting low Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Yes, ideally the limiter should have its threshold set so as to not touch the audio at all in "normal" operation. No threshold control on the PM55P so we can only trust it'll do the job if needed. I know I would be very unhappy if it kicked in at the listening levels I use - but that's not the case. Due to my deteriorating hearing I try to keep my in-ears level as low as I can without compromising my playing, so I'm not surprised I've never heard it work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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