A challenge for snobby musicians

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by ernest828@aol.com:

I`ll say it again, hit makers have little time to be spending time online in forums thats because they are working beyond 40 hours creating. Creating does not work 9-5. Most of these hit makers are also working as independents, providing for their own health benefits, 401s, and always looking for their next job. They do not have the luxury to spend time online which this is.

 

These people are living lives that are very much unpredictable and uncomfortable in that they do not know if they`ll be working in another year or so.

Ernest, I said this in a previous post but I guess I need to repeat it: you're just plain wrong. On multiple levels. The picture you paint of the "hit maker" is woefully incomplete. There are some people making a living at music who lead the kinds of lives you describe, but if you're talking about "hit makers" there are LOADS of people in that category whose lives are NOTHING like you describe.

 

Just to name a one example off the top of my head: I have a good friend who co-wrote a number one hit in the 80's. He has not had to worry about money since. He lives very modestly, but he prefers to be smart with his money and live life at a more relaxed pace, rather than having blown all his money on coke and flashy cars and having to crank out more hits in order to maintain an extravagant lifestyle. He prefers to write the kind of music HE wants to write, which isn't necessarily saleable in today's market, and to enjoy life hanging out with his friends and girlfriend. He has plenty of leisure time and that's what he prefers.

 

Incidentally my friend had his hit record because he happened to be hanging out in a hotel room in New York with some rock star pals and they wrote the song together in a few hours. This is called "being in the right place at the right time" or which happens as a result of "networking." Networking is an extremely important part of running your own business, but a good deal of it doesn't look like "work" - it looks like hanging around and partying with your rock star friends, or posting on silly BBS's. It takes a lot of time and effort to build these relationships, and in fact it may well take more time than the actual creative work.

 

Another songwriter friend is one of those prolific geniuses who can wake up and write 3 songs before breakfast, and at least 2 of them will probably be good. He throws down a rough demo and hands it to his publisher, and they take it from there. If he wanted, he could spend the rest of the day posting on forums, but he has other hobbies that he prefers instead.

 

There are many other folks who tour for a few months out of the year and don't have much to do the rest of the time... or who pursue their hobbies during the interminable hours of travel or waiting around in hotels while touring... or who do a hit record once a year or even less often, and don't have a lot to do the rest of the time... in short, there are as many lifestyles lived by "hit makers" as there are "hit makers," and one can't generalize at all about how they live and how much free time they have and what they do with it.

 

And like I said earlier, a large portion of what makes someone successful is their ability to network and get their name out there to the right people. You can be the most talented hardworking soul in the world, and it won't matter if the people who are capable of helping you in your career never hear of you, and your potential listeners never hear of you. The Internet can be a very valuable tool in that respect, so many of us use it. It can't completely substitute for in-person meetings, but it can help start future relationships.

 

This thread was challenging those who complain to step up and prove themselves. In my experience these people will not do so. They will remain complainers. They complain because they are simply too lazy to put in the effort and they lack the discipline it takes to be successful.

 

They will continue to complain because it is just easier.

So who are you talking about specifically? Who is it around here that just complains and doesn't work hard at their music?

[Duddits]

Originally posted by ernest828@aol.com:

I`ll say it again, hit makers have little time to be spending time online in forums

You'd be surprised.

 

Originally posted by ernest828@aol.com:

thats because they are working beyond 40 hours creating.

WAY WAY beyond 40 hours.

 

Originally posted by ernest828@aol.com:

They do not have the luxury to spend time online which this is.

Yes. They do.

 

Originally posted by ernest828@aol.com:

These people are living lives that are very much unpredictable and uncomfortable in that they do not know if they`ll be working in another year or so.

Quite the opposite. Success breeds security. They know they'll be working in a year from now. In fact, their schedules may be filled years in advance.

 

Originally posted by ernest828@aol.com:

Being an artist is a totally different way of thinking and living than most of us realize.

You got that right.

 

Originally posted by ernest828@aol.com:

Its not pretty, its not easy, it is not romantic.

Some is pretty, some is easy, and some is romantic.

 

Originally posted by ernest828@aol.com:

A few get through the threshold, just a few. These few are not concerned with visiting forums to unwind.

Why not? Forums are fun! And if you're used to people sucking up to you, I would imagine it would be a nice place to get away from that.

 

Originally posted by ernest828@aol.com:

This thread was challenging those who complain to step up and prove themselves. In my experience these people will not do so. They will remain complainers. They complain because they are simply too lazy to put in the effort and they lack the discipline it takes to be successful.

Sure, but this is a forum, not a contest, and there's no need to prove anything here.

[Kaz]

Is this a great thread or what? Zzzz would have loved this. Looks like it got a little off track. A couple folks came through with the challenge...good for them. Not sure who the snobby ones are, but some folks seem a bit defensive. Didn't realize this was a place for networking and promotion. That explains the ass-kissing. Everywhere you go, someone's trying to sell you something.

 

John Lennon said he'd often write songs by lying in bed for days being depressed and staring endlessly at the TV.

I am compelled to comment on this! I know Lennon has said he watched TV a lot or had it on all the time in the background, not sure about the depressed part (do you have a link to a quote of that?), but 2 things: 1, he was incredibly extremely supremely talented, so what he did or how he did it is so much an apples and oranges thing, that I can't stand it!! 2, I could see how that would be helpful in creativity, as that is sort of a getting into the zone thing, a turning off of the mind, whereas this (chatting on internet forums) seems the exact opposite. Arguing or networking or whatever this is, has yet to put me into the zone, except maybe the twilight zone, or the mental patient zone .

[Tedster]

I have (and this is not just based on this one post, but several) the distinct feeling that the cat meows from experience.

 

It might be interesting to divide the "hitmakers" into:

 

Artists (main artist or artists that is)

Studio musicians (if they're involved)

Writers

Arrangers

Producers

Engineers

Marketing and promotion types.

 

A studio musician may well (not necessarily) look at "hitmaking" in a different context than, say, a producer in terms of time and effort involved, etc. For a few of those categories, it's a 9 to 5. For others, it's their ass on the line.

[ernest828]

Ernest, I said this in a previous post but I guess I need to repeat it: you're just plain wrong.

Lee,

 

Once again I don`t know what I was thinking. You are always right. How dare I forget that.

 

Honestly, I find you obnoxious yet I sense a good heart.

 

Peace,

Ernest

[jlampson]

Ernest,

 

Several people including myself posted examples of things they have done in genres that others feel "are easy to do." Ernest, since you're big on opening your mouth, let's hear something you opened your mouth on.

 

John

[whitefang]

Originally posted by cwfno:

total dedication and countless hours of work are required for getting to the "top" of your field. (along with a complete refusal to quit).

And even THAT isn't totally true. Take the case of my friend Bill, who has studied classical guitar since the age of six. By the time he went into college, he had also expanded his interest in jazz. I'm NOT being biased when I claim he could give John McLaughlin a run for his money. However, while in college(getting a music degree), he auditioned for many bands and labels who told him outright that at the time(mid '70's), the field was already saturated with speedy and skillfull white boys playing jazz, and his only hope was if he was already an established session man, sort of like Larry Carlton. Of course, he formed his own combos and such for playing clubs on weekends, but eventually became disillusioned with the music "industry". So even knowing AND blowing won't do it for the uncompromising. Often, you have to be the flavor of the month before you blow!

 

And while we're at it, I'm NOT a pro musician, not even at that playing level. But, I DO have a passion for music, ever since I can remember, and a taste influenced by a wide variety of styles and "genres" I feel qualifies me for some sort of critique.

 

Whitefang

[Hanshananigan]

Originally posted by ernest828@aol.com:

I`ll say it again...

Peace,

Ernest

Wow, Ernest, that is the bleakest description of a musician's life I've ever heard. Not a word of passion or fun or wild experiences along the way. If you are approaching your rising music career with that attitude, you may want to give it up and sell vacuum cleaners instead. You'd probably be quite successful with that kind of hard work and dedication, and might actually enjoy music more...as a rewarding hobby.

 

ps- I agree with you about your challenge. However, I don't pull that "anyone can do X type of music" attitude (nor do most folks here, as far as I can see), so it just doesn't apply to me.

[the stranger]

Originally posted by ernest828@aol.com:

Let me tell you many artists making the hits today are not spending much time on forums, I`m sure some visit occassionally like Craig but they are way too busy to be wasting time on here posting nonsense. You see people here with thousands of posts, that tells me two things:

 

1. They have no life

 

2. They rather be posting than making music. Which says they are not artists.

 

I know thats going to get some comments and I love the one I hear all the time, "I come here to unwind from work." Please, just get on with it and admit you enjoy this more than hard work which is creating.

 

Peace,

Ernest

And just what is this definition of "a life"? Just because somebody spends their time in a manner that differs from you doesn't mean they don't have a life. And really, why do you care? You seem to have some chip on your shoulder against the regulars here.

And why exactly are you "wasting your time" in this thread "complaining"?

 

And just what is this definition of "artist"? Writing isn't an "art"? This forum is just as valid an artform as any other. And who cares what these people are doing? And just based on what you see people do here isn't any indication of anything. To claim that the frequent posters aren't artists is pretty fucking red. I don't see you having any real success in your endeavors, because your attitude sucks.

 

Number one waste of time on internet forums? Responding to comments like yours. Please go back to your "productive use of time", and please quit wasting ours.

 

And last but not least, what are you doing here? Doesn't your presence here conflict with your view that we're all a bunch of time wasting slackers who don't have what it takes to be an "artist"?

 

And if you don't think posting here is hard work, try being a regular on political forum.

The regulars there probably put more effort into the content of that forum in a day than the entire white house press team does in a month.

 

And my opinion would be that anybody who has this much concern over "hits" and the people who make them doesn't have a true idea of what real art is.

 

Real artists don't give a piss about hits.

[Tedster]

Just once I'd like to tear up a hotel room, ride a Harley down the hall...off the balcony into the pool, and wake up hungover nearly smothered with nekkid females.

 

 

Now THAT'S what I call "art".

 

HAHAHAHAHA....

 

You know me, I'm just being a smartass...

[ernest828]

And just what is this definition of "a life"? Just because somebody spends their time in a manner that differs from you doesn't mean they don't have a life. And really, why do you care? You seem to have some chip on your shoulder against the regulars here.

And why exactly are you "wasting your time" in this thread "complaining"?

I didn`t know I was complaining. However you make good points. I agree I should be spending more time working on my stuff but I admit I too come here to chill and de-stress.

 

And just what is this definition of "artist"? Writing isn't an "art"? This forum is just as valid an artform as any other. And who cares what these people are doing? And just based on what you see people do here isn't any indication of anything. To claim that the frequent posters aren't artists is pretty fucking red. I don't see you having any real success in your endeavors, because your attitude sucks.

I guess so. I realized its not a good idea to disagree here with certain people like Lee and Tedster. They seem to be favorites and anyone who does not kiss up, gets whacked. No problem. I actually agree that I am being a little too critical of them and others.

 

I don`t know you any better than you know me so lets stop.

 

Peace,

Ernest

[Steve LeBlanc]

I don`t know you any better than you know me

that's the bottomline in this conversation...you placed a judgement (intentionally or not) on people who post here a lot without considering how little you know about them.

 

FWIW...there was a time when I worked every waking hour on music, I had spurts but was never able to stay productive at that level. It was always when I'd take a few days off in nature or playing video games or something that creativity really peaked. That's still the case but I have a ton more distractions now, yeah I chose the life I'm leading, no it's not perfect but with what I've gained I'd have it no other way.

 

Peace.

[hard truth]

I want to give credit to the handfull of forumites who actually posted their music here in response to my challenge. We should reward them with gentle, constructive feedback.

 

I'm glad to see that the notion that "any idiot can make(pick a genre)music" is apparently not held by many forumites.