M-Audio Keystation 88es - Fatar keybed? Which one?

[Reezekeys]

I offered to help fix a friend's Keystation 88es with one note that always sent vel=127. He brought it over, I fixed it (it only needed the contact cleaned), and now I'm fooling around on it until he stops by tomorrow to pick it up. I'm surprised to find that I like the action on this! Not mushy, with a pretty quick return. Semi-weighted of course, but that suits me fine. I would normally be wary of a keyboard that doesn't have a setting for dynamics, but the default setting feels good while playing my acoustic piano sample.

 

I'm curious which Fatar keybed this uses (or which one it might be equivalent to today, given that this keyboard is probably 15 years old). It is a Fatar, right? I did quite a bit of googling but couldn't find any reference to the keybed type.

 

I'm also curious about where this fits in their lineup of semi-weighted 88s. There's Mk1 and Mk3, and a plain Keystation 88. These others seem to have some extra controls on top (transport?).

 

I've been toying with the idea of bringing an 88 to gigs, that's why I'm asking. One of these used might be OK, although I think there are some lighter semi-w 88s around now.

[Justin Havu]

I always thought M-Audio made their own keybeds, but I could be completely wrong.  It's been 10 years since I owned or played one (I have a friend that has the Alesis Q88 which is pretty much a rebranded Keystation [Mk II, probably] that I tried out a few years ago).

 

I had both a Keystation 88es (That would be the Mk1) and two different Axioms (1st Gen 49 and 2nd Gen 61).  The keybed on the Keystation was okey, but I hated the Axioms.  Those felt very spongy compared to the Keystation.

 

I too, have been thinking about getting a semi-weighted 88 again.  Unless I'm on my trusty RD-1000, any other weighted/hammer action keyboard is extremely fatiguing, even with the velocity set to the lightest setting.  Since my carpal tunnel fiasco nearly five years ago (surgery in the left hand, cortisone shot in the right), my hands have not been the same.

[Reezekeys]

Really, M-Audio rolls their own? I always thought it was only Yamaha & Roland that made their own keyboard actions.

 

I'm so used to the synth action on my Roland A800 that the Keystation 88es's action feels a little heavy to me! It's still not as heavy-feeling as the keys on my KX88. At 63 lbs (29kg) not including a case, that beast isn't going anywhere though!

[davinwv]

@Reezekeys- take a look at the Novation Launchkey 88. I know that you might be trying to do this on the cheap, but it gets rave reviews.

[Reezekeys]

Thanks, I looked at that Novation. $400 is actually not that bad a price for a decent 88 but I'm afraid its many features are overkill for me. I don't exactly need an 88 - I just thought it might be interesting to change up and bring a more piano-like experience to my local gigs. Seeing as they're mostly in the vein of  older-folks' music (jazz) I need no bells & whistles other than decent-feeling keys and maybe a slider I can assign to volume. IOW, this would be strictly for playing a piano or ep sample. If I need any more control, I can slap my little Korg NanoKontrol on it. I'll continue to use my Roland A800 for gigs where I need access to multiple sounds, splits, presets, etc.

 

I was hoping to find out the exact mfr and model of this mystery keybed to give me a starting point. I took some pics as I disassembled to help me get it back together. I should have looked for any identifying marks like the name of the manufacturer but didn't - and I'm not gonna disassemble this keyboard again! Does Fatar put their name on keybeds they sell? Maybe the pics will ring a bell with someone. I'm not sure why the forum is displaying this image at about half the width of the page. Doesn't seem to matter what size I upload it.

 

[rockmanrock]

Hi Reezekeys

 

I bought one of these recently and did a big cleaning job on it. I agree, it is an okay keyboard to play. Not amazing but usable. When I had it open I rotated the black rubber key bushings and added some dabs of silicone lube and that improved the clackiness.

 

I'm pretty sure it's not a Fatar, it's made in Taiwan or China so I would bet it's a Medeli, Huaxin, Ringway or similar. I've looked at the Mk3 quite closely on a Youtube video and I think it's an evolution of this one. People say they've made it lighter to play and it's certainly lighter in weight as it's now 6/7kg vs 11kg. I think they removed those steel rails and made them part of the plastic case moulding. They've also removed the steel weights from the keys. Have a look at 1 min into this vid:

 

 

That little PCB you have removed from the keyboard is the key scanning one. I had a hell of a job putting it back on mine, I ended up unscrewing the steel rails. Another big problem I had was the pitch bend pot was worn and was constantly sending pitch bend. I bought another pot (Alps 10k linear RK11 series) but realised it has to be a special pitch bend one that has the resistance over a more limited rotation than a normal pot. M-Audio couldn't help with spares so I ended up getting one from a certain inNovative synth company as they use them in their controllers. They very generously sent me one for free. M-Audio had glued the pitch bend wheel onto the pot so that had to be drilled out to remove it. Still in the process of fitting it all back together. With hindsight I think I should have bought the new one!

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

I'm not gonna disassemble this keyboard again!

 

I spoke too soon... another key has stated exhibiting the same symptom I fixed two days ago. I'll look at the keybed again, maybe with an eye on which one not to ever use! 🙂 

[rockmanrock]

When I had mine to bits I washed the rubber contacts in mild soapy water and cleaned the PCB gently with IPA. I washed all the keys too, quite a job. You probably know this but the rubber contacts have a high and low side so make sure they go back on the right way.

[Reezekeys]

rockmanrock, thanks for linking to that video. Once I re-disassemble this 88es I'll be comparing its keybed with what's shown briefly on the vid. 

 

17 minutes ago, rockmanrock said:

They've also removed the steel weights from the keys.

 

I could be wrong (and will know in a little while) but I don't remember seeing weights in the 88es's keys.

 

[edit - I just looked at my pics and realized one of them shows the underside of the keys, no weights!]

 

I might advise the owner to buy a complete set of contacts (I see them on Ebay for around $60 - $80) and do the whole keyboard somewhere down the road. It's not my board and I'm just helping him out with this one issue (not taking any $$) so I'm not gonna go to the lengths you did with cleaning!

 

Thanks for pointing out the different manufacturers of these actions. The membrane switches with carbon dots seem to be the most common design. I'm not sure why I assumed it was  Fatar action, I just thought they supplied a lot of synth manufacturers so it was probably them.

[rockmanrock]

They do have some weights in there, in your photo the rectangular end of the white keys and the circular part of the black ones have them moulded in. I've just removed and checked a white key of mine with a magnet!

 

I think just taking off the rubber contacts, washing them and giving the carbon contacts a wipe would probably sort out any trouble. It would involve taking off every key but that's not too bad. This one I have was so filthy I had to go for a full wash. It really is time consuming doing this stuff though.

[Reezekeys]

I'll look for those weights! About to take this keyboard apart again.

 

1 hour ago, rockmanrock said:

When I had mine to bits I washed the rubber contacts in mild soapy water

 

For the last repair I swabbed IPA on the circuit board for the membrane switches and on the carbon dots inside those switches.  Soap & water is better for the switches? I may as well do the whole keyboard if I'm taking it apart again. I'll also look at the dots - hoping to be able to tell signs of wear; soap & water won't fix that.

 

The scanning PCB was a pain to reinstall as it has those spacers. I used some un-bent paper clips and inserted them through the holes on the PCB, then the spacers, and into the rail (or whatever it attaches to). That kept things somewhat aligned until I could hold the board in place and slip the screws in.

 

I notice that this keyboard, along with my Roland A800 and probably most others in this somewhat "lower priced" category use machine screws that go into plastic. I'm no mechanical engineer but this method of assembly seems to assume that one will not be disassembling and reassembling this too many times! A few of the screws holding the top panel of the KS88es have stopped grabbing, and some won't even stay in the hole; the plastic inside is obviously stripped. It's not much of an issue for my friend since this is gonna stay at his house in one spot. The screws holding the membrane switches PCB are like this and I was very careful not to tighten them too much - but it seems to me these parts are going to get stressed a lot so I wonder if the money or weight savings is worth it there.

[Reezekeys]

Sorry for cluttering up this thread but I had to note something - the guy in the video you posted said the minimum velocity he gets on any note, no matter how softly he plays, is 15. He also says the maximum velocity he can get out of the black notes is 108. I just checked on the 88es, and if I play very softly I can get velocities of 1 and 2 on any note. Also, the black notes definitely can reach 127. This could be evidence of M-Audio cheaping out on the action for the Mk3. I would avoid it based on what I just found out.

[Justin Havu]

Wonder if the Nektar 88's are the same way with that velocity limitation.

[Reezekeys]

Depends on where they source their keyboard actions from, I would think. Maybe someone here has one and can hook it to a midi monitor app?

[Reezekeys]

4 hours ago, rockmanrock said:

They do have some weights in there, in your photo the rectangular end of the white keys and the circular part of the black ones have them moulded in.

 

Correct. I assumed I would see actual metal, looks like this action encases the weights in plastic. So the Mk3 sends coarser velocity data and has keys with no weights in them. Not a great selling point!

 

5 hours ago, rockmanrock said:

M-Audio had glued the pitch bend wheel onto the pot so that had to be drilled out to remove it.

 

On the Roland keyboards I've owned and opened up (with the paddles), that's not the case - you can easily separate the pot from the rest of the assembly. Roland won't sell you one though - no more parts for end users as I understand.

[Joe Muscara]

22 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

I always thought it was only Yamaha & Roland that made their own keyboard actions.

Casio, Kawai do their own. 
 

i was very turned off by M-Audio’s actions in their early days and I haven’t checked since. I had a 61 and grew to hate it, used an early 88 at an audition and it was gross. The weirdest, yuckyest feeling action I’ve ever tried. 
 

One time a year or two ago I was walking on trash day and saw a keyboard, probably an 88, sticking out of a trash can. I thought, wow, maybe I can … then realized it was an M-Audio and kept walking.

 

All that being said, if they’ve improved and you like it, that’s good for everyone. 

[Reezekeys]

33 minutes ago, Joe Muscara said:

i was very turned off by M-Audio’s actions in their early days and I haven’t checked since. I had a 61 and grew to hate it, used an early 88 at an audition and it was gross. The weirdest, yuckyest feeling action I’ve ever tried.

 

33 minutes ago, Joe Muscara said:

All that being said, if they’ve improved and you like it, that’s good for everyone. 

 

Actually they may have worsened it, if what we've uncovered in this thread is true! The Keystation 88es I have at my place now is at least 15 years old. It's the one with true weights in the keys unlike, apparently, their newest Keystation 88 ("Mk3").

 

They seem to have three lines of non-hammer controllers: Oxygen, Oxygen "Pro", and Keystation. I remember an earlier Oxygen, it was kinda toy-like with very mushy action.

[rockmanrock]

7 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

I'll look for those weights! About to take this keyboard apart again.

 

 

For the last repair I swabbed IPA on the circuit board for the membrane switches and on the carbon dots inside those switches.  Soap & water is better for the switches? I may as well do the whole keyboard if I'm taking it apart again. I'll also look at the dots - hoping to be able to tell signs of wear; soap & water won't fix that.

 

The scanning PCB was a pain to reinstall as it has those spacers. I used some un-bent paper clips and inserted them through the holes on the PCB, then the spacers, and into the rail (or whatever it attaches to). That kept things somewhat aligned until I could hold the board in place and slip the screws in.

 

I notice that this keyboard, along with my Roland A800 and probably most others in this somewhat "lower priced" category use machine screws that go into plastic. I'm no mechanical engineer but this method of assembly seems to assume that one will not be disassembling and reassembling this too many times! A few of the screws holding the top panel of the KS88es have stopped grabbing, and some won't even stay in the hole; the plastic inside is obviously stripped. It's not much of an issue for my friend since this is gonna stay at his house in one spot. The screws holding the membrane switches PCB are like this and I was very careful not to tighten them too much - but it seems to me these parts are going to get stressed a lot so I wonder if the money or weight savings is worth it there.

 

With mine, after I'd taken it apart the second time I used some tape to hold it together until I've completely finished (yet to happen!).

 

I got the soapy water tip from a Youtube video. I can't find it now but I think it was someone who was connected to one of these Chinese keyboard manufacturers. If the silicone rubber isn't ripped and the dot is still in place and not worn I think soapy water should be enough. I did see some repair videos where the dot had been worn off, must have been some heavy hitters. I think the idea is to thoroughly clean any debris out that would fall onto and mess up the contact.

 

Sounds like you had the same trouble refitting the scanning PCB. Good tip with the paper clip. I had to take the rails off as the red mist was descending by that point. As I was doing it I thought this is probably how it was assembled in the factory, the PCB would go on then the rails.

 

As for the screws into plastic, yes they're a bit dodgy - the outer case ones seem the most fragile to me. Hope you have noticed there are two self-tapper sizes, the ones along the front by the keys are short ones. If the threaded holes got really chewed up or cracked I think some epoxy putty (Milliput here in the UK) would fix it well.

 

[rockmanrock]

3 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Correct. I assumed I would see actual metal, looks like this action encases the weights in plastic. So the Mk3 sends coarser velocity data and has keys with no weights in them. Not a great selling point!

 

 

On the Roland keyboards I've owned and opened up (with the paddles), that's not the case - you can easily separate the pot from the rest of the assembly. Roland won't sell you one though - no more parts for end users as I understand.

 

One of the reason I bought this old one was because quite often things get cheapened over time. They certainly have cut down on the metal and heft but some people seem to be saying that the MK3 feels better than the old ones. I can get 127 on mine too. I think I could manage with not hitting the really low values but not getting to 127 would be annoying. Maybe they didn't account for the weights removal in the new one! I think the main complaint about all these cheap MIDI controllers is the lack of velocity consistency. There's a video by Merriam pianos on Youtube where he shows it's harder to control than a fancier keyboard action. This one:

 

 

[rockmanrock]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

I remember an earlier Oxygen, it was kinda toy-like with very mushy action.

 

On a German forum they said the early M-Audio Oxygen ones were developed or made by Taiwanese company Midiplus.

 

https://www.midiplus.com.tw/en/

[Joe Muscara]

Oh yeah, IIRC, I couldn't get 127 out of my 61 without some serious, possibly injury-inducing force. I shoulda tried a hammer  , but I ended up selling it to someone so that worked out better for me.  

[Reezekeys]

11 hours ago, rockmanrock said:

They certainly have cut down on the metal and heft but some people seem to be saying that the MK3 feels better than the old ones. I can get 127 on mine too. I think I could manage with not hitting the really low values but not getting to 127 would be annoying.

 

11 hours ago, rockmanrock said:

the main complaint about all these cheap MIDI controllers is the lack of velocity consistency.

 

Not getting to 127 is a total deal-killer for me but when you look at these newer controllers you start to see where they're aimed at. Witness the "auto" features like Novation's "scale mode" that "makes sure you always hit the right note", the Ableton Live integration where pressing a pad plays loops, etc. Nothing against the tech, but I suspect the folks wanting these features are not using the keyboard to play nuanced piano performances where a lack of velocity consistency would be noticeable. IMO, making such a keybed is very doable as I've been playing a high-end sampled piano on 4.5kg Roland A800 Pros for ten years, and a similar Roland PCR-M80 controller for six years before that. It's also been shown that some of the cheaper controllers fudge the pitch bend and mod wheel data as well - either sampled more coarsely or with a few bits lopped off.

 

Today is "wash day" for my buddy's KS88es!

 

[stoken6]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

when you look at these newer controllers you start to see where they're aimed at. Witness the "auto" features like Novation's "scale mode" that "makes sure you always hit the right note", the Ableton Live integration where pressing a pad plays loops, etc. Nothing against the tech, but I suspect the folks wanting these features are not using the keyboard to play nuanced piano performances where a lack of velocity consistency would be noticeable.

Yeah, controllers aimed at live "traditional musicians" are rare these days. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Jose EB5AGV]

Beware when you clean those contacts. The only conducting part is a thin graphite-like layer. If you remove that, the contact is doomed. Adding some, very little, graphite powder may help, at least temporarily. But replacement of the rubber contacts is the way to go.

I have an old Roland PCR-M50 controller which had problems and the only real fix was to change the rubber contacts.

[Reezekeys]

21 minutes ago, EB5AGV said:

Beware when you clean those contacts. The only conducting part is a thin graphite-like layer. If you remove that, the contact is doomed

 

Thanks for that. I was going to clean them yesterday but the weather here in the NY area intervened - no power here, so I left our house for the day. We're OK now.

 

What you say may account for the advice to use mild soapy water to clean. My plan is also to swap the positions of some of these strips (most have 12 contacts) to put the lesser-used ones from the bottom & top of the key range in the middle. Everything was working fine except for the two notes that started sending vel=127 only. Considering my friend is a drummer who will use this keyboard sparingly, primarily to play drum parts, we'll go with the soap& water cleaning and hope for the best.

[Jose EB5AGV]

One interesting thing is to understand how the keyboard computes key velocity. It is simply derived from time between closing of the two contacts, which are mechanically offset. So, when first contact fails (acts late) and the contact is made after some extra pressure is exerted, instead of an instant before, the keyboard assumes time between contacts is really small, so the high velocity is incorrectly measured.

 

I am not sure what would happen if only the second contact works. Maybe it generates also a 127 velocity note (it would be kind of safe mode default). All in all, first contact seems to be the more problematic one, but of course you clean both, once there 😉

 

Jose

[Reezekeys]

I just chimed in on another thread "Mojo61 Developing Stuck Notes" where I watched a video posted by a Nord owner describing disassembling his keyboard to clean a contact. Interesting that he says to never use liquids anywhere as they could be harmful to the graphite layers! It looks like graphite on the dots in the rubber contacts as well as on the circuit board where they contact. I'm tending to believe that washing the rubber contacts in mild soapy water as described by rockmanrock is OK. Then again, this isn't my keyboard! I don't want to eff anything up here! 🙂 

[Mr -G-]

It is the same switch principle found in TV remote controls. Cleaning gently both the rubber and the board contact part with isopropyl alcohol and a Q-tip should be fine.

[Reezekeys]

That's what I thought, thanks.

[Justin Havu]

On 12/21/2022 at 6:53 PM, Reezekeys said:

Depends on where they source their keyboard actions from, I would think. Maybe someone here has one and can hook it to a midi monitor app?

 

Just got an Impact LX88+.  Checked the MIDI monitor in Studio One, and I can get anywhere from 1 to 127 for velocity.

 

Action is quite smooth, although the key travel is just the tiniest bit deeper than I'm used to.  Other thing is the tops of the accidental keys slant backwards starting right at the front of the key, instead of, say, halfway up the key like most unweighted/synth keybeds.  Again, I'm not too bothered by it, it'll just take some getting used to.