Backline question

[JB Sherry]

I just wanted to 2nd the 5-pin MIDI suggestion for a reason not mentioned - line noise. USB MIDI connections are susceptible to line noise and rf interference, whereas 5-pin MIDI is opto-isolated and won’t introduce noise.  I believe you can do longer cable runs with 5-pin, as well. Logic Remote on an iPad will control Mainstage if you need your computer at some distance. 

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, yannis D said:

1 hour ago, TommyRude said:

Thanks Yannis... I'm going to search the forum for notes on the nano controller - seems like a ubiquitous tool.  I think Reeze mentioned earlier about using putty to secure the nano control, is that how you do it?

I put it on a music stand usually, near my keyboard. It's easier than using anything to stick it to a rental keyboard 

 

Glad that works for you but I like the Nano's controls close to me and easily reachable as I play. I also don't get how it isn't easy to roll up two small blobs of putty, stick 'em onto the Nano then press the Nano onto the keyboard - the putty even comes off clean and I save it – I have the same stick in my backpack for the last 6 years! Works great too - the Nano does not move at all.

[TommyRude]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Glad that works for you but I like the Nano's controls close to me and easily reachable as I play. I also don't get how it isn't easy to roll up two small blobs of putty, stick 'em onto the Nano then press the Nano onto the keyboard - the putty even comes off clean and I save it – I have the same stick in my backpack for the last 6 years! Works great too - the Nano does not move at all.

I think either method is fine... seems the essence is to have it close, stable, easy.  I'm thinking to do the same with the Key Largo - - I've got little velcro tabs on my own board, don't want to be dealing with sticking velcro on backline boards.  I'll try both your methods!

[TommyRude]

3 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

Nano Kontrol is a no brainer. So cheap and just works. It's got a place in a lot of my rigs.

hey Icon... that cool table/shelf, is that something you've been able to source from a backline company?  Or is that more for local gigs?

[TommyRude]

3 hours ago, JB Sherry said:

Logic Remote on an iPad will control Mainstage if you need your computer at some distance. 

hey JB, I'm definitely interested in finding slicker/easier ways to control MS.  I haven't introduced my iPad yet, as it seems adding the iPad adds another potential headache - but that may simply be because I haven't hooked it up yet to try.  I currently have my macbook on a tray stand to the left of my boards - not ideal.  I find myself looking/reaching over to the laptop to change patches. 

 

I tried programming a button on the Nord to forward patches, but it was kinda glitchy - one of the few things that didn't work well between the Nord and MS.  Possibly the Nano Controller will help with that, or a footswitch.  I'm really not needing to interact with the laptop much at all - simply forward patches.  Or in the case of callouts/deviations, moving the mouse to the appropriate patch.

[Reezekeys]

12 minutes ago, TommyRude said:

I tried programming a button on the Nord to forward patches, but it was kinda glitchy - one of the few things that didn't work well between the Nord and MS.  Possibly the Nano Controller will help with that, or a footswitch.  I'm really not needing to interact with the laptop much at all - simply forward patches.

 

Does Mainstage require program change commands to select patches/presets? The NanoKontrol doesn't do PCs.

[obxa]

Reeze is correct- Great as it is, the Nano unfortunately  can't send program changes- but there is a complicated workaround using Keyboard Maestro and other software to map buttons from the Nano. (or from Mac keypad).   I quickly got tired trying to make that all work consistently.

 

 i really wish Apple would allow the keypad to call up programs.   That's partly why I use the Behringer X-touch when I need to call up  lots of different sounds by hand (pit band stuff). It can do multiple  and nested program changes over several channels and even exit and enter changes. It's deep but stupidly,  the  programming app only  works on PC .  You can run the app with Wine or Crossover  from a Mac- or just use any Windows machine you have access to.  Akai's mpc controllers can easily do program changes but don't have as many sliders- so is  a good option too.   Many of guys in worship use those as an alternative (or with the nano) and send program changes from  the drum pads.  

 

 All that said,  for the other stuff I normally do- I keep my concerts pretty lean with lots of alias and only 12 or so patches that get recycled within.  So it's not that hard to just scroll as needed if I need something off the set order.  Most times I  use Forscore to send  program changes  because it can do it with page turns or within sections of the song. 

 

I will share from experience that when you first start using MS,  the inclination is to get deep and have ability to control everything,  or have access to 100s of presets. .   In reality you'll spend more time tweaking, and worrying-  and less time playing.  You 'll quickly find the 80/20 rule of the patches/controls  you use (need) most.  But that also depends on kind of music you're doing. 

 

This a great example of a  FREE simple concert template that's hooked up to the Nano- and you can replace the patches with your own.  

https://www.praisecharts.com/worshipkeys

[B4i]

Just to note MainStage doesn’t need PC messages for patch changes. I use note numbers. It all gets mapped at concert level 

 

as an aside I built a usb foot pedal using an arduino board. Each switch on the pedal outputs note data which is mapped in MainStage to patch up, patch down, start playback, and a mystery switch which does different things on different patches 

[mobi]

This looks useful for anyone with a laptop / ipad based setup

 

 

https://www.boss.info/us/products/fs-1-wl/

 

 

• Quote

   

  • Versatile wireless foot controller for software applications and MIDI hardware
  • Control devices wirelessly over Bluetooth or connect to MIDI hardware with a BOSS TRS MIDI cable
  • Rear-panel switch for selecting MIDI mode or HID mode (three onboard setups available in HID mode)
  • HID mode sends keyboard commands for controlling software on computers and mobile devices
  • MIDI mode sends PC/CC messages for controlling MIDI devices
  • USB port for use as a class-compliant MIDI input device (HID mode not supported over USB)
  • Dedicated editor (macOS/Windows/iOS/Android) to customize footswitch assignments and save setups for different applications
  • Three rugged footswitches with smooth and quiet operation
  • Jacks for up to two external footswitches and an expression pedal
  • Runs on two AAA batteries or an optional PSA-series adaptor

   

   

 

 

 

[Reezekeys]

5 hours ago, B4i said:

Just to note MainStage doesn’t need PC messages for patch changes. I use note numbers. It all gets mapped at concert level

 

And the NanoK's buttons can send notes, so all good.

[JB Sherry]

I believe the standard way to do this in Mainstage is to put a couple of buttons on your concert layout in edit mode, map them to the next/previous patch commands, enable MIDI learn on the buttons and press whatever you want on your controller. You should’t have to do any programming on your controller as long as MIDI transmit is enabled for knobs/sliders. It may require more thought if you’re controlling external hardware along with Mainstage. I believe some of the templates in the Mainstage wizard include patch change buttons, so you can copy those. 

 

@TommyRude I highly recommend you try Logic Remote to see if it works for you. It’s easy to set up. 

[TommyRude]

1 hour ago, JB Sherry said:

I believe the standard way to do this in Mainstage is to put a couple of buttons on your concert layout in edit mode, map them to the next/previous patch commands, enable MIDI learn on the buttons and press whatever you want on your controller. You should’t have to do any programming on your controller as long as MIDI transmit is enabled for knobs/sliders. It may require more thought if you’re controlling external hardware along with Mainstage. I believe some of the templates in the Mainstage wizard include patch change buttons, so you can copy those. 

 

@TommyRude I highly recommend you try Logic Remote to see if it works for you. It’s easy to set up. 

thx JB.  Note - I did exactly the MS button assignment.  The "next" is not consistent.  Sometimes takes two taps, sometimes (incorrectly) jumps 8 patches.  Not sending any hardware patch changes - 100% using MS.  Probable there's something weird in the way I programmed the patches. 

 

As for assigning knobs, faders, buttons - learning along the way, not everything works as you initially think it might.  For example, trying to assign a drawbar fader as a volume control - doesn't initially work as you think it might.  i.e. it's backwards, and it jumps in small increments. Similar when assigning a fader for pitch bend.  Also - some knobs may not work as you intend, i.e. trying to assign a knob for "next" - not so good (a 'knob' might be never-ending, v. having a distinct begin/end)!  There are good reasons behind all this, part of the learning process!

 

I'll take a look at LP and report back.

[TommyRude]

6 hours ago, mobi said:

This looks useful for anyone with a laptop / ipad based setup

 

https://www.boss.info/us/products/fs-1-wl/

 

thx for that, looks pretty cool.

 

Which begs a question..  are folks using bluetooth devices on the road?  Reliable, foolproof?  Or glitchy and problematic?  

[Iconoclast]

On 12/23/2022 at 8:59 PM, TommyRude said:

hey Icon... that cool table/shelf, is that something you've been able to source from a backline company?  Or is that more for local gigs?

I built it. Very simple diy with some screws and glue. It bolts through the stand with thumb bolts. Hold beer too.

 

[CowboyNQ]

On 12/24/2022 at 6:29 AM, TommyRude said:

More backline questions..  curious what you guys bring with you?  I'm thinking a cable bag with all the requisite odds and ends that could save a scenario.  Spare expression & damper pedal?  Extra/misc cables?  Midi connectors? Extra power strip?

 

I guess ideally you list everything out on the backline request, and it all shows up perfectly at every venue, and everything works.  You just show up with your laptop or whatever patch system you have, plug it in, all works quickly.  But that sounds pretty Pollyannish, I would imagine that things don't go as planned more often than they go correctly?

 

Way back in the day, we would bring everything with us.

I bring a bag with all my instrument cables, power supplies, IEC cables, sustain pedals, plus assorted bits and bobs like gaffer tape, screwdrivers, etc.

 

I never rely on the backline company to supply the right peripherals (one time they forgot to supply the actual keyboard).  
 

[TommyRude]

17 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

I built it. Very simple diy with some screws and glue. It bolts through the stand with thumb bolts. Hold beer too.

 

got it... very nice.  But - I'm assuming you don't take that on the road / fly gigs?  What do you use to accomplish the same objective?  Standalone tray stands?

[Iconoclast]

4 hours ago, TommyRude said:

got it... very nice.  But - I'm assuming you don't take that on the road / fly gigs?  What do you use to accomplish the same objective?  Standalone tray stands?

No, I've never taken that on a fly gig. But it wouldn't be that hard to travel with a piece of wood painted black and just ask for another x stand to put it on.

Actually, the picture you're commenting on is exactly that; a repurposed shelf painted black that I put on a Knox H stand (highly recommend the knox stand for accessories).

The shelf that bolts into my K&M stand is a bit different.

[TommyRude]

5 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

No, I've never taken that on a fly gig. But it wouldn't be that hard to travel with a piece of wood painted black and just ask for another x stand to put it on.

Actually, the picture you're commenting on is exactly that; a repurposed shelf painted black that I put on a Knox H stand (highly recommend the knox stand for accessories).

The shelf that bolts into my K&M stand is a bit different.

 

Thanks for all that Icon!  While I've got you here, can you describe your pedal setup?  Couple of things.. firstly, what's that device in the middle?  Looks like possibly a midi switcher, similar to what Mobi posted earlier?  Also - the two damper pedals - curious how you're using those with one board.  Cheers!

 

[Iconoclast]

3 hours ago, TommyRude said:

 

Thanks for all that Icon!  While I've got you here, can you describe your pedal setup?  Couple of things.. firstly, what's that device in the middle?  Looks like possibly a midi switcher, similar to what Mobi posted earlier?  Also - the two damper pedals - curious how you're using those with one board.  Cheers!

 

Pedals from R to L:
-Dedicated leslie slow/fast: plugged into the Nord but passed through to Mainstage when using VST organs

-Sustain: plugged into the Nord

-Programmable midi switcher (Morningstar MC6 in this case) for patch up/down. Plugged into the USB Hub
-Master Volume for the entire rig. Plugged into the Nord but passed through and mapped to Mainstage's Main volume slider. The Nord's output goes to the I/O device and then back into Mainstage so the pedal controls volume there.

-Expression. Plugged into the Nord but passed through. Different uses depending on the program.

The MC6 plugs directly into the USB bus so you can use it with any keyboard. It runs on it's own channel so no matter how I change the rig it always commands a patch up or down. You can also use for basically ANYTHING else (leslie, sustain, or anything that accepts a midi command) but I find that it's a little tight to be using the middle switches unless I'm looking directly at it, which I never am. So I just use the corner buttons. There's a lot of options for this kind of equipment and of course I bought something that is expensive overkill. But it's 110% programmable and a neat bit of kit.  Tech21 and numerous other companies make cheaper/simpler more economical solutions than the MC6 which is really designed for guitar players with extensive pedal boards.

[TommyRude]

On 12/24/2022 at 9:01 AM, JB Sherry said:

 

@TommyRude I highly recommend you try Logic Remote to see if it works for you. It’s easy to set up. 

hey JB, just got around to Logic Remote, works nicely! (and took about 10 sec to set up 😁 

 

Now I've got the problem of wanting to use something like ForScore for hands-free charts, kinda tricky to use both at the same time... dang!

[ap ka baap]

"I recently purchased some vibrant overlays from Ebay that can be written on with a grease pencil; however, I frequently opt for 1/3" post-it tape to mark settings effortlessly. Another fantastic addition to my setup for Mainstage is the Behringer X touch mini. It's sturdier and offers better visibility, although it's not as portable for travel compared to other options. Nonetheless, it's become my go-to for local gigs." Fragrance Du Bois Perfumes In Pakistan