Overwhelmed with workstations

[Yael770]

Hi all,

 

I'm new here and was told this is the place to get advice about keyboards. I'm a percussionist/composer/pianist looking into buying a workstation to aid in composition and eventually make material for an album. I'm not into working with DAWs as I can't get the hang of working in a computer and I love the idea of being able to do all of my composition with an improvisation-like flow inside of a workstation keyboard that has all the sounds I need. I've been looking into the new Roland Fantom 8 but I read that it does not have a linear sequencer, which based on my research and the way I work it seems like I will need. What I imagine composing is something along the lines of modern classical music, long form, not necessarily looping patterns, and potentially shifting time signatures. 

 

Does anyone have recommendations for a keyboard that might be a good fit?

 

I'm certainly overwhelmed with the amount of options out there and all the different specifications, which I don't know what they all mean. All I know is I need weighted keys and the ability to compose with a lot of sounds. If there's the option of rhythm/drums playback for a performance setting that would be the icing on the cake. 

 

Thanks in advance!!

[AnotherScott]

There aren't too many keyboards with built-in linear-style sequencers anymore... I think only Korg and Kurzweil currently make them. (Well, there's also the older Yamaha MOXF8 which is still available new from Guitar Center/Musicians Friend.) 

[ElmerJFudd]

I personally don’t find working on the interface and screens of workstations easier than using a DAW on a Mac or PC, but I realize others may find workstations preferable (particularly one over another due to familiarity - or possibly someone  having experience on a few can suggest reasons why workflow and/or features may be better on one or another).  
 

Scott, are any still  able to complete a full project including live mic’d audio tracks?  I imagine with CD burning pretty much gone on workstations - USB to Mac/PC is necessary for export, master and delivery. 

[Justin Havu]

IMO, Korg's Kronos (or Krome EX)  is probably going to be your best option.  I started composing with a Triton in very much the same way you're describing, and while I can't speak for others, I found the sequencer quite intuitive and easy to get around.  The cool thing about it is if you've stumbled upon a sound that inspires you in some way, you can simply hit the sequencer's RECORD button (or ENTER + RECORD on older Korgs) and it'll copy the entire program or combination, with all of the effects, over to the sequencer.

[AnotherScott]

9 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Scott, are any still  able to complete a full project including live mic’d audio tracks?  I imagine with CD burning pretty much gone on workstations - USB to Mac/PC is necessary for export, master and delivery. 

With Kronos gone, I think now only Nautilus.

[Fuzzy1]

Go and get a Kurzweil PC4 or a Kurzweil K-2700. You'll love those!

👍

[CEB]

If you want to compose and make albums then bite the bullet and learn to use a DAW.  

[uhoh7]

1 hour ago, Fuzzy1 said:

Go and get a Kurzweil PC4 or a Kurzweil K-2700. You'll love those!

👍

The laptop killed the workstation....but the not the "workstation". The term remains in wide use, applied to all sorts of rigs which have their strengths, but basically need a laptop or ipad to be a real workstation. Those that come closest have pretty dated chips and interface, which can be quirky...very long boot times etc. 

 

A whole generation of engineers retired, and software DAWs were aquired by major players like Yamaha, which profit more by having you subscribng to their software than the huge expense of bringing their products to a stand alone state which is actually easy to use. 

 

I have a MOXF, which I like, but it takes alot of time which might be better spent learning a common DAW to get a productive handle on the features, like it's sequencer etc. 

 

Multi-channel synths were also hit hard by the DAWs. A few are left. It's a shame because many of us crave a reliable stand alone workstation that does not need a laptop and can be the center of a multi-channel midi rig. Dawless is a "thing" now on the synth scene. 

 

Bandwidth is a real issue these days for...humans. But the tech industry "needs" to monetise our attention. Yet playing music needs immersion and shedding, and the constant beeps and updates from all manner of needy "aids" and the learning curve of the latest software or classic midi project get in the way, big time, I find. 

 

Real playing is an athletic endeavor which is also very healthy, if you don't get hurt. Last few years I'm loving acoustic instruments. I use the tech to listen, and organise my learning and library. But gigging keyboard players these days mostly need to know their DAWs and alot more. Composers need to know Dorico or something like it really well, and if doing film work, etc, they have to REALLY know their DAW. 

 

Even the academics and historic organ guys are increasingly tied to laptops...hauptwerk is incredible, but....time intensive to get going properly. 

 

Best of luck, I agree the PC4 might be a good choice, let us know what happens. Youtube is your friend these days. 

[CyberGene]

I find working in a DAW much easier and smoother than having to use these tiny screens with awkward UI-s on workstations and arrangers. I understand where that new mantra about hating computers and “liberating” from them is coming from but there are a lot of misunderstandings and mostly emotional arguments that preach against DAW-s. Going fully backwards to those times when you were only using real instruments, effect pedals and a 4-track tape recorder is one thing and it can be very inspiring and unlocking your creativity. Using a crippled DAW-like environment though, as in a workstation/arranger is completely different story. But it’s always good to go through a reality check. 

[mauriziodececco]

After all, a workstation is just a computer with a complete software system within a keyboard; unless you need to easily bring your setup around, if you work in a studio working with a real computer will be a lot easier; if you are classically trained, may be you'll find yourself more confortable composing with notation based software, like Dorico; anyway, there are a lot of choices of different approches and style, so the final risk taken is lower (once you have a computer, of course

 

Maurizio

[Farfisakid]

If you decide to go the workstation route rather than DAW/computer the Korg Nautilus would be my recommendation.  It’s slimed down from the Kronos in terms of price and live performance features like after touch but not in sounds so that would appear to be a positive for you. You should take into consideration the action of whatever you decide to go with as you mentioned this would be for classical. Perhaps a Kawai VPC 1 or Studiologic SL 88 Grand plus DAW. All the best with it ...

 

 

 

[Tusker]

16 hours ago, Yael770 said:

I'm new here and was told this is the place to get advice about keyboards. I'm a percussionist/composer/pianist looking into buying a workstation to aid in composition and eventually make material for an album. I'm not into working with DAWs as I can't get the hang of working in a computer and I love the idea of being able to do all of my composition with an improvisation-like flow inside of a workstation keyboard that has all the sounds I need.

 

Welcome to KC Yael770, and to one of our favorite debates. The hardware versus software debate. 😉 Sort of. 

 

Everybody is different. Some of us are more kinesthetic and there is a rough generalization that percussionists are very kinesthetic in their creativity. That stereotype may not be true for you of course. You are a pianist too and you know what they say about keyboardists!!

 

I would make two points to go along with all the the great suggestions here. First If you would like a kinesthetic experience. there are ways to make a daw or a workstation keyboard more kinesthetic. Secondly, get yourself some training in whatever tool(s) you buy and you are more likely to develop a workflow that serves your creativity. If you choose a daw, bear in mind that most successful daw users have an abundance of tactile tools hanging around them so that they don't have to look at the screen. When they do look at the screen, of course it is as big as possible so you don't have to squint or change posture. These tactile tools can be midi controllers (like keyboards or Linnstruments or MalletKats) for note input, control surfaces for controller input (like the expensive MonogrammCC sliders or an inexpensive used Behringer BCR2000) and then a control surface for managing your DAW  and mixing functions (typically a Mackie compliant surface like the Presonus FaderPort or Icon Platform M). The point is to remain tactile so that you can improvise!!

 

A healthy subset of these capabilities is also available in the best keyboard workstations like the aforementioned Fantom/Nautilus. You can create perfectly good music with either set of tools. The DAW may seem like the cheap option at first but that's only the software part.

 

Either way, if you don't get trained it will be frustrating. So get some training and then practice your creative workflow until it gets into your muscle memory, like Hanon or drum rudiments. Then you'll be humming along. Welcome!!

[octa]

not speaking from much recent experience, but, the "shifting time signatures" part seems like it would be much easier to do in a DAW than a workstation. Like someone else said, YouTube definitely helps with learning the DAW's etc.

[CyberGene]

If you have a Mac, you already have a great DAW: GarageBand. Should you decide you need more pro features, you can upgrade to LogicPro X for something like 200 bucks (depending on country and currency of course) which will include so many features and instruments, some of which you can't find even in the most expensive workstations.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Since you mentioned switching time signatures as being important, I would avoid the PC4/K2700 that’s been recommended. To my knowledge as a PC4 owner, you are very limited in this area - you can have different initial time signatures, but you can’t change mid-song. Plus it has weird limitations on exporting standard midi files.
 

My recommendation is a Korg Nautilus. Although I would really recommend going the DAW route, speaking as someone who was workstation-based for a while but eventually shifted to DAW’s (Cubase) for editing convenience. These days I use built-in sequencers in workstations as scratch pads to get ideas down, or for backing tracks if I need them. All serious work is done in a DAW.

[jazzpiano88]

Excuse my ignorance, but does a linear sequencer mean you generate/view/edit individual midi events on any part (instrument) within a sequence?

I wouldn't want to do that on a workstation.  It's tedious enough with a computer monitor mouse and keyboard.

Do any linear sequencing workstations allow parts to be audio?  That would be doubly painful, if so, and limiting, if not.

 

[Stokely]

I kind of "grew up" with computer-based sequencers and later Daws (starting in the late 80s) and wouldn't want to try to do similar things on a workstation.  It just seems way too limiting, especially these days where both sound and effects can be done in the box.  That aspect is truly game-changing to me.  

Ironically I still buy workstations, for live non-sequencing use   They tend to be the most flexible and have a great variety of sounds.

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, JazzPiano88 said:

Excuse my ignorance, but does a linear sequencer mean you generate/view/edit individual midi events on any part (instrument) within a sequence?

I wouldn't want to do that on a workstation.  It's tedious enough with a computer monitor mouse and keyboard.

Do any linear sequencing workstations allow parts to be audio?  That would be doubly painful, if so, and limiting, if not.

 

 

Linear means assembling something straight through from beginning to end (as opposed to building something out of loops).

 

Either approach can permit you to view/edit individual events (e.g. to correct a bum note, without having to play the part again).

 

Recording live audio tracks into the keyboard is not as common as it used to be. I think Nautilus is the only current board that lets you do that.

[Franz Schiller]

Since you mention "improvisation based" and "shifting time signatures" and long form editing, I'm going to have to agree with others that you should bite the bullet and learn a DAW.

 

A DAW will be far far far more flexible for recording improvisations and turning it into a finished, polished piece. Even the best workstations are a nightmare to edit on. 

 

Yes it will be painful at first. But with a workstation, it will be painful down the road when you realize all the things it CAN'T do AFTER you've invested all that time and effort.

 

Good DAWs to consider are Logic (cheap and flexible), Studio One (very intuitive), Cubase (for Windows), Reaper (inexpensive).

[ABECK]

19 hours ago, Yael770 said:

Hi all,

 

I've been looking into the new Roland Fantom 8 but I read that it does not have a linear sequencer, which based on my research and the way I work it seems like I will need.

The Roland FA series (FA-08. 07, 06) have a linear sequencer.  Very easy to work with.  (I think you can still get them new.) The more recent Fantom-08, 07, 06 use a different approach, I believe (clips?)  Kurzweil K2700/PC4 also, as mentioned use a linear sequencer, but I've found it limited a bit - very basic.  I like the onboard sequencer for quick ideas, but for full fledged recording, arranging and mixing, I couldn't imagine not using a DAW.

[Mighty Motif Max]

3 hours ago, Franz Schiller said:

Good DAWs to consider are ...Cubase (for Windows)...

For the OP, I’ve used Cubase on MacOS for years and it’s been fantastic. Better than a lot of its competitors if you’re doing a lot of midi stuff.

[RandyFF]

Welcome to the forum!  Whoever advised you did well, you’re not likely to find a friendlier group, many of whom have decades of experience.

 

First things first!  It sounds like you’ve mostly been using piano-centric keyboards.  Learning a modern workstation, even if not using it for composing, is a considerable task in and of itself.  Your composing will be all the better if you don’t put double stress on yourself.  I can totally relate, I’d rather not get all technical with my music, but it must be done to some extent if you want the marvels that modern technology can bring to creative enterprises. 

 

Consider it your learning/training period, that you learn to use a multi-timbral keyboard and learn the basics: how to layer and split sounds (up to 16 on many of these boards!), basic editing so that you know how to shape envelopes to your liking, adjusting cutoff and resonance, going thru the whole rigamarole of finding your favorite sounds amongst thousands on offer within the board, knowing how to save them and back them up so you don’t accidentally lose considerable time/effort spent auditioning/modifying these sounds, and the list goes on and on.  For any given sound, many of these boards can have dozens of possible parameters, and then there’s dialing in the effects, which takes an understanding of how the board divvies up the System wide effects vs insert effects and the signal flow within the board.

 

I suppose you’ve got to decide for yourself if you’re a preset kind of guy (which saves you a lot of the time described above), 0R if you want the sound to be as good as you can make it, which can take a considerable amount of time to achieve.  However, even if you’re mostly a Preset kind of player/composer, you’ll still want to understand what’s possible, sometimes just a handful of parameters can quickly transform a sound more to your liking.

 

Even before getting into composing, all of the above is a considerable task, and you’re setting unrealistic expectations if you’re thinking that having a workstation is less work than a DAW- esp for someone who doesn’t have keyboard workstation experience.  You’ve got to be willing to get very technical with your new keyboard and learn to ‘make it yours’, all dialed in, which can take months of steady work just by itself.

 

Just saying- composing starts with the sounds, and if you want to stay simple and organic, get good at knowing how to get the layers and splits that satisfy your soul as a musician!  That starts with getting very familiar with the workings of the keyboard.   AND, like others here, the strong suggestion is to use the keyboard for the rough sketches, and leave the actual composing to a DAW.  The built-in bonus here is that once you’ve gotten familiar with how to get the sound you want on the keyboard, many aspects of using a DAW will come much easier for you, you’ll have gained a great deal of familiarity.

 

As someone who is relatively new to the keyboard workstation world, your best bet is to find the most user-friendly keyboard you can- believe me, this can make a huge difference.  Back when I knew nothing,  I bought a top-of-the-line workstation that had all the features I thought I needed, but like many Yamaha’s, the user interface (once you got below the surface), was designed by engineers, not musicians, a very frustrating 1st time experience with a keyboard workstation.

 

For people who are performing live, that would include the Nord Stage, which has most of the controls on the front panel, very little menu diving needed, giving you the tactile experience others talked about.   For someone with composing aspirations, I would guess the Roland 8 with its weighted keyboard and hefty price would be one of the more user-friendly (only based on what I’ve heard, Roland often comes up as such).

 

The point is, get advice on the most user friendly keyboard that would inspire you to learn it, and realize this is not a trivial task.  Many of those on this forum has forgotten how much they’ve learned over the years.  I advised a friend once on buying an inexpensive keyboard, and was shocked at how much I needed to educate him, it takes some doing, esp with an advanced workstation.

 

The other thing is making sure you like the feel of the keybed.  As a pianist, you’ll want a board that responds well to your touch.  Finger to ear connection is very real, the sluggishness of the keybed or its nimble responsiveness can all play a major part in your enjoyment/inspiration.  And of course, the Fantoms around the $2k mark are not going to have the premium keybed the $4k Fantoms do.

 

And then there’s weight- most of the best playing keyboards weigh 45-60 pounds, and by the time you put that in a gig bag, you’re looking at 60-90 pounds!  Do you want to gig with it?  Thankfully many new keyboards have come out with really good keybeds that don’t weigh as much as they used to.

 

The other piece of hard won advice is don’t assume you can make the right purchase the first time out, that can be a very expensive lesson.  You might consider buying a used board that you can learn on.  I was completely blown away, this is years ago, when I tried the Korg Kross, all models are under $1k.  They made it so fun and intuitive to do recording and overdubbing on top of it, as a sketch pad it was super inspirational.  Or, find a board that is known to be deep but friendly, and start learning what it means to deeply edit a sound to your liking so you know how to reach the settings that are important to you.  

 

Will be very curious how you proceed!   I may not, you may not, want to get too involved in technology to realize your composing goals, but even just learning a keyboard workstation itself, IT IS TECHNICAL.  Think of it this way- it’s a Renaissance kind of tool, expanding and multiplying any talent you have.  

 

So be smart about it but be willing to spend the time or find alternative means, like a composing partner that’s handling the DAW and recording.  But you would still need to learn how sophisticated keyboards work if you want to tap into the awe-inspiring sounds you can make these days, and that involves a lot of details and learning that doesn’t feel super musical while you’re in the trenches.  It’s a lot like learning piano- it can take a lot of time to get your foundation, but once you do you can make music!  Like the ‘overnight sensation’ that has been at if for years!

[EricBarker]

In reality, hardware workstations are just really expensive, under-powered, and claustrophobic computers. They're way more complicated than desktop computers, because they have to do the same things with far less dedicated controls. They feel really inorganic and unnatural. It's just like how everyone hates Car Stereos. They're really no different from Home Stereos, they just have half the controls that do double-duty. So I don't understand the incentive of using an onboard workstation, it seems like you'd just be handicapping yourself. Furthermore, many workstations are limited to "in-the-box". There's something magical about hanging a mic in your studio, and grabbing a penny whistle or tambourine to add some acoustic elements to your track. That becomes harder to impossible with an integrated sequencer.

 

Do yourself a favor, just bite the bullet and learn how to use a DAW. Yes, they're complex, but they're far LESS complex than a hardware sequencer, and you can do much more natural and organic work with them, once you get the hang of it.

[uhoh7]

22 minutes ago, EricBarker said:

In reality, hardware workstations are just really expensive, under-powered, and claustrophobic computers. They're way more complicated than desktop computers, because they have to do the same things with far less dedicated controls. They feel really inorganic and unnatural. It's just like how everyone hates Car Stereos. They're really no different from Home Stereos, they just have half the controls that do double-duty. So I don't understand the incentive of using an onboard workstation, it seems like you'd just be handicapping yourself. Furthermore, many workstations are limited to "in-the-box". There's something magical about hanging a mic in your studio, and grabbing a penny whistle or tambourine to add some acoustic elements to your track. That becomes harder to impossible with an integrated sequencer.

 

Do yourself a favor, just bite the bullet and learn how to use a DAW. Yes, they're complex, but they're far LESS complex than a hardware sequencer, and you can do much more natural and organic work with them, once you get the hang of it.

You are right they are, but that's because they've had little love to remedy the issues. A standalone rig which does not demand you stare at a screen and move a mouse, and does not constantly get "updated"....there's a market. 

[Nathanael_I]

I don’t think there’s a market. If there was, digital porta-studios would be popular. But they aren’t. You can get little all in one hardware recording solutions. But they are not popular. This is a niche desire. Just like keyboard workstations. The market shrinks every year, and is almost certainly tied to age demographics. Kong and Yamaha have already decided workstations aren’t marketable at the profit point they need to be interested. No more Kronos.  The Montage flagship….  The world has changed. 

 

Use GarageBand. It’s awesome. It’s worth buying a cheap used Mac just to get it. It 100% crushes any workstation for ease of use, workflow, power, capability, etc. anyone can learn it with a few YouTube videos. A $100 interface will get you going with one cable. This was simple and stable 10 years ago. It’s even more true today. 

[AnotherScott]

7 hours ago, uhoh7 said:

A standalone rig which does not demand you stare at a screen and move a mouse, and does not constantly get "updated"....there's a market. 

 

I think there's a bunch of screen staring regardless of whether the screen is inside or outside the keyboard. But you could avoid the mouse and also more easily place the screen most conveniently if you use a tablet. So maybe look for an iPad-based DAW, or maybe a PC-based one running on something like a Surface Pro. The nice thing about the ones for iPad is that they are clearly all optimized for touch, whereas many apps that technically run on a PC tablet do so relatively poorly because they were not designed for touch from the outset. To the extent that someone might say an iPad-based DAW is less capable than some of what can be done on a Mac/PC, remember that the exercise hear is not to compare an iPad DAW to a Mac/PC, but rather comparing the iPad DAW to what you would find in a Korg or whatever.

[octa]

if you're on a PC, give Reaper a try. It's free, and real easy to get going. (available for Mac also) After a month or so, they'll start asking for $60 donation. 

 

the DAW option is a lot more portable, flexible and affordable than the mostly obsolete workstations. And you don't lose all your projects, when the workstation is eventually bricked. 

 

3 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

So maybe look for an iPad-based DAW

I've used the iPad DAW "Auria" some and found it useful, though not the most affordable. Curious to try Cubase for iOS. Have had success with Garage Band on iPad too. (MacBook G.B. version has a bit more functionality iirc)

[Motif88]

After almost 20 years of workstations (Motif 8, Motif ES8, Motif XS8, Kronos 88) I switched to Logic Pro and haven't looked back. If your goal is home/studio based composition, I'd recommend looking at the DAW route. Oddly, I bought an returned a Fantom 08 as my brain doesn't work that way anymore. If I was still playing live, I'd take the Fantom 08 and the Hydrasynth Deluxe in a heartbeat.

[ElmerJFudd]

This hardware sequencer looks like a rabbit hole I'd want to be in for no more than 20mins.  

I'd rather order a new power adapter for my Roland MC-50mkII.  😉

Logic Pro, DP, PT, Cubase, Reaper, etc. etc.  All preferable to me.  ymmv

 

 

 

[El Lobo]

To me, DAW vs. workstation is kind of a distinction without much of a difference. As others have said, a workstation is a DAW with much more limited controls. (Actually, now that I think of it, DAW stands for Digital Audio Workstation.) Once you're set up with your keyboard and DAW, you can improvise all you want and capture it all in a much more flexible and controllable form. I have a dedicated workstation keyboard and also software DAWs (plural) in my computers. If what you want to do is just play and compose, I think you're limiting yourself by avoiding a DAW and looking to do it in a workstation keyboard. But there are others in this thread with far more knowledge and experience than I. Read what they say. They have good and helpful advice.