Another Live Mixer Advice Thread

[SamuelBLupowitz]

I've got some time off from band gigs until 2023, so I'm trying to take advantage of some ways I can streamline my rig, even ever-so-slightly.

 

To that end, I'd love to consolidate my Behringer stereo IEM mixer and my Rolls keyboard line mixer into one unit. I like to monitor my keys in stereo in my IEMs, and the kind of venues I play, it's a crapshoot whether or not the sound crew can spare an extra aux for that. I'm thinking if I could monitor my keys directly off of my mixer, and then get a mono monitor feed of everything *except* keys that I could send to my IEMs as well, it would give me more immediate control over how loud my keys are in my ears, and eliminate the uncertainty of whether I'd be monitoring myself in stereo or mono.

 

Ideally, I'd need at least three stereo quarter-inch inputs (for keys) and one XLR input (for the monitor feed), plus stereo main outputs (preferably XLR) and a headphone out. If I'm thinking about this correctly, the mixer would also need an aux send that could be sent to the headphone output *only* -- that way I could send the monitor mix *just* to my IEMs, without sending it back to FOH along with the keyboards and ruining everyone's day.

 

Also, it would be great if this mixer could fit on top of my Mojo or my CP88... but on the ground would be fine too!

 

Wondering what's out there that might fit the bill. Or if I'm overthinking this and should reevaluate.

 

Thanks for your feedback, everyone!

[Stokely]

I have done this with a couple different sets of gear, if I understand correctly.

The main concern I would have is--I like to have a limiter with my headphone amp.  Unless you use a mixer with one built-in, that probably means a separate unit.  I'm currently using a Rolls pm55p, which has a mono mic input and stereo (or mono) monitor inputs.  So I can take in a keys-less aux and combine with the stereo keys coming from my Key Largo monitor outs--this is pre-wired on my pedalboard so easy to use.   I realize this is going back to two units and you are looking for one.

I used to monitor with a Soundcraft notepad feeding my behringer p1 (and p2, I have both) headphone pack.  The soundcraft has a pre-fader monitor send, which allows it to act as both a submixer and as a monitor mixer.   Without the pre-fader send, whatever you hear is going to also go to FOH, not good.

Curious to other suggestions.  It would cost a fair bit, but a PA mixer like the XR18 or QSC touchmix (small one) would have the flexibility needed, assuming they have headphone jacks (not sure).  I know some keys players use the XR18 as a keys submixer.

[Sean M. H.]

Samuel, is running your boards into the other board's inputs not an option?  That would get you down to two very small pieces at least*.  For the last year or two, I've been running the way Stokely described...I run my Fantom-0 to the inputs of my PC4 (so no need for a mixer)...then out of my PC4 to a stereo DI (not a key largo or anything fancy, just the regular Radial DI).  The Thrus from the DI hook to the 1/4" input on the Rolls PM55p (for stereo, you need a Y-cable).  And an XLR feed from the sound man also goes to the PM55p.  Works like a champ, and regardless of how good or bad the sound man is, at the very least I will always hear my keys!

 

*actually, now that I'm looking, you're boards are even better set up for this...because the CP88 has XLR outs!  So you wouldn't even need a DI I don't think...if you have your other board routed through your CP88, you could just send the XLR out to the sound man, and the 1/4" out (with a Y cable) to the PM55p...maybe I'm missing something though--if you are running tracks, cues etc would complicate things for instance 

[SamuelBLupowitz]

2 minutes ago, Sean M. H. said:

*actually, now that I'm looking, you're boards are even better set up for this...because the CP88 has XLR outs!  So you wouldn't even need a DI I don't think...if you have your other board routed through your CP88, you could just send the XLR out to the sound man, and the 1/4" out (with a Y cable) to the PM55p...maybe I'm missing something though

I do *love* those XLR outs on the CP88, and so do sound guys! I also love the stereo inputs. But my main band gigs are three boards these days (piano, organ, synth), so I wind up needing a line mixer anyway... and when I do strip the rig down, the CP88 is usually the one to go.

 

All that said, both of these suggestions are helpful; if I can't reduce the headphone amp and the line mixer to one piece of kit, it would still be great to give myself a little more control over my monitoring. But, if I can kill two birds with one stone and only have to buy *one* new piece of gear, that sure would be nice, so I'm open to other thoughts! The XR18 would certainly work if I want to make that jump (though some analog controls might make life easier). 

 

There's also this:

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SM10--samson-sm10-stereo-line-mixer

 

A bit overkill, but it's got auxes, headphone outs, plenty of stereo channels, two XLR inputs, and XLR outputs.

[Stokely]

I almost ended up getting that one, because iirc it has a pre-fader aux when I was doing things that way.   

Many (most cheap) mixers do not have a pre-fader aux so that limits options.  Obviously if you have the monitor feed coming into your submixer, it can't go back out to FOH.  What helped me was to draw out the flow on paper to make sure I wasn't in for nasty surprises!

Key Largo + Pm55c don't take up much space, I also have a Rolls line mixer that is even smaller.  I bought a better power supply for that because the one that came from Rolls was noisy.  If you mount them up together on something (as I mentioned, I have a pedalboard for this) then there's very little to connect and the power supplies are already mounted up and plugged into a strip.

[CEB]

You want your monitor feed to go into your keyboard submix mixer that is also going back to FOH?   You CAN do it but ... you probably shouldn't. 

Are you running a Shure IEM transceiver?  If so I you should just run your IEMs in mono.  Mono sounds fine.

 

I did what you wanted to do but our production guy saw what I was doing and had a cow.  There are dangers if a knob changes without you knowing it and creates a direct feedback loop back to the FOH.  The way to do it is to run IEMs in mono mix mode.  Front desk sends me what you want and that runs direct to one side of the Shure transceiver.    I send my keys submix to the other side of the Shure.  Using the same mixer route the monitor send to a monitor aux only is risky.  It can cause serious pain and maybe fry some tweeters in a line array.

 

The unlabeled silver XLR input is the monitor feed input.

 

[Delaware Dave]

Have a look at the Alto 802 Live, i think it can do everything you want, not sure but I think it will fit on your mojo.

 

Link

[wineandkeyz]

I’ve done exactly what you describe using a Mackie 1202VLZ4 mixer. An 802VLZ4 would also work, but it uses a line-lump power supple instead of having an internal supply like the 1202.

[Stokely]

Avoiding the feedback loop is the thing.  If you are using the main mix of the submixer to go to FOH, tape down the fader of the channel where you take in the monitor feed if you need to.  I did accidentally turn it up one time (thankfully during soundcheck) and yes it was bad    If you are instead using the aux send to go to FOH (i've done that before) then maybe tape down that send control.

I much prefer having the separate devices honestly.  Together they aren't really much bigger than my soundcraft and there's less to do to set up and double-check to make sure it's all working, since they are already cabled up.   Connect the keyboards to the key largo ins, the FOH feed from the key largo outs, and headphones into the Rolls and I'm done.   

I'm torn on monitoring in mono if I'm sending mono to FOH.  On one hand, keys sound better in stereo and it helps me hear the other instruments/vocals if the keys aren't also right in the middle.  On the other, I like to hear what I'm sending to FOH because some patches vary in strength between stereo and mono despite my best efforts.

[cassdad]

Behringer XR-18 / Midas MR-18.

[timwat]

Samuel,

 

Do you really need a key-less AUX back from the board? I mean, I've never taken a monitor mix back from the board (with keys) and said, "Damn, there's TOO MUCH of me in this mix".  100% of the time there isn't enough, and so I end up adding more me...I've never had to subtract more me.

 

The only time that's not true is in the X-Air "every man for himself" situation where everyone in the band is expected to use the app (Beh or Prosonus or whatever goes with the mixer) to shake and bake your own. But that's easily solved and isn't what you're talking about.

 

Anyway, sorry if this is something obvious I'm missing. Just seems like being hear the house aux and augment with stereo more me would do it. But I miss be missing something.

 

Tim

[The Real MC]

22 hours ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

I'm thinking if I could monitor my keys directly off of my mixer, and then get a mono monitor feed of everything *except* keys that I could send to my IEMs as well, it would give me more immediate control over how loud my keys are in my ears

 

That's how I have been using my monitor.  Much easier to balance while playing, less hassle for the FOH guys.

[The Real MC]

Beware of aux sends.  They can be poor fidelity on cheap boards.  When I upgraded to an Allen & Heath, suddenly the aux sends to the monitors sounded much clearer.

[Zalman Stern]

Nobody has mentioned it, but a Behringer FLOW-8 very likely does what you want. Behringer is in the current setup so you'll likely be familiar with the tradeoffs involved. (Generally good functionality and excellent price with quality that varies. I have not used this particular product, hence the caveat.)

 

Most of the other solutions in the thread are a fair bit bigger, and many do not offer digital control via e.g. a phone, which is pretty useful too. (And looks like the FLOW 8's 7/8 channels aren't on faders to main so you could use them more safely for the FOH return.) It has limiters on the main and monitor output busses, though I don't see one directly adjacent to the headphone output.

 

First and foremost, it sounds like you have your ideal signal path figured out so evaluate the hardware against that and stick to *your* needs. There are a zillion products out there.

 

-Z-

 

[stoken6]

On 11/20/2022 at 7:05 PM, Zalman Stern said:

Nobody has mentioned it, but a Behringer FLOW-8 very likely does what you want. Behringer is in the current setup so you'll likely be familiar with the tradeoffs involved. (Generally good functionality and excellent price with quality that varies. I have not used this particular product, hence the caveat.)

 

Most of the other solutions in the thread are a fair bit bigger, and many do not offer digital control via e.g. a phone, which is pretty useful too. (And looks like the FLOW 8's 7/8 channels aren't on faders to main so you could use them more safely for the FOH return.) It has limiters on the main and monitor output busses, though I don't see one directly adjacent to the headphone output.

 

First and foremost, it sounds like you have your ideal signal path figured out so evaluate the hardware against that and stick to *your* needs. There are a zillion products out there.

 

-Z-

 

Great suggestion if the limiter applies to the headphone output. (Thinking about it, the headphones tend not to have their own buss, normally you choose to hear main or aux busses in the phones - so you should be good). There is a single fader for 7/8 (alongside a single for 5/6 and four faders for each of 1-4). But you could tape it down/remove the knob or something if you don't want it to move. I also don't know how to adjust the sends - is that app-only?

 

There are some weird things about this mixer to be aware of: "Oh, by the way, EZ-GAIN will automatically engage the 48 V phantom power on mic inputs 1 or 2 when no signal is detected, just in case you forgot to do that." Inputs 1-2 are XLR-only - if you're using them for your monitor feed from FoH, or from a keyboard, that might not be fun.

 

EDIT - I had a look at the manual. "These faders can also be used to control the send levels to the MON 1/MON 2 output jacks or the FX 1/FX 2 internal busses when selected in the controlapp or by pressing the menu layer’s related hardware button". So the idiot-check would be to make sure the hardware button for your headphones is set when adjusting the return from FoH. Or maybe use the hardware only for the main mix (with tape/no knob) and adjust your headphone mix from the app?

 

Cheers, Mike.