Roland Fantom-07 vs Kurzweil PC4-7?

[eric.B]

 

I Already own a Yamaha MOX8 and vintage Korg X3 and Roland JV30, I am thinking about getting a new 73/76 board.

I've read the specs so know a bit about the differences but haven't had the chance to compare the 07 and PC4-7 myself.

Any thoughts?

[Mighty Motif Max]

I own a Roland Fantom 7 (the big brother) and a PC4 (88) both. From my perspective, if organ and synths are a big part of your needs, or if you care about electric basses, go for the Fantom 07 (provided you are willing to invest in the model expansion packs as-needed). If pianos, electric pianos, guitars, and any sort of orchestral sounds (strings, woodwinds, brass, percussion) are a bigger part, go for the PC4-7.

[AnotherScott]

MMM is focusing on sound differences, so for a different perspective, I'll talk about some of the more significant functional differences. Roland has better user interface, more rhythm pattern functionality, sampling with trigger pads, and vocoder. Kurzweil has better action for most things (IMO Roland's is better for organ, but Kurz is still okay), 9-slider drawbar control for organ, DX7-compatible FM synth, aftertouch, better MIDI functionality, and 8x the keyboard-playable user sample memory.

[Mighty Motif Max]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

MMM is focusing on sound differences, so for a different perspective, I'll talk about some of the more significant functional differences. Roland has better user interface, more rhythm pattern functionality, sampling with trigger pads, vocoder, and 8x the keyboard-playable user sample memory. Kurzweil has better action for most things (IMO Roland's is better for organ, but Kurz is still okay), 9-slider drawbar control for organ, DX7-compatible FM synth, aftertouch, and better MIDI functionality. 

I thought the PC4-7 has the 2GB of user sample memory that the 88-note PC4 has, and the Fantom-0 has the lowly 256MB. Spot on otherwise. The Kurzweil also has a full sequencer, while the Fantom-0 has a pattern sequencer.

[AnotherScott]

37 minutes ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

I thought the PC4-7 has the 2GB of user sample memory that the 88-note PC4 has, and the Fantom-0 has the lowly 256MB.

Whoops, I messed up in an edit. Fixed.

 

[eric.B]

Thanks for the feedback.

 

So each board has its strengths and weaknesses - I guess that applies to other brands like Korg and Yamaha as well.

Besides the extra keys that must be a reason why a lot of players use (at least) 2 keyboards, to supplement each other.

I have watched and heard several demos but I'll check for nearby stores which have both in stock to try out.

You have to try keyboard action yourself, opinions vary a lot.

 

Prioritizing sounds by usage, for me it would be: 1) synths and a-pianos, 2) e-pianos and organs, 3) strings and pads, 4) (e)basses, 5) brass and last other sounds.

 

Regarding the sample memory: a number for the memory size doesn't mean a lot to me, is 256MB adequate or limited?

I do realize it depends a lot how many samples you need for the music you play.

 

Kurzweil praises the KB3 ToneReal organs but Rolands are considered better? Is Nord still considered one of the best brands for organs?

 

The Kurzweil probably seems more suitable for deep editing.

I like tweaking and editing but, as it can be very time consuming, I'd rather focus on playing.

 

As I don't have much need for a sequencer, patterns, etc. and looking besides workstations, maybe a stage piano / live performance board could also be an alternative?

 

A lot of choices these days - it was a lot easier when I bought my X3 in the 90s 😉.

[Moonglow]

Some of your preferences are expressed in interesting pairs. Here’s my $0.02.

 

1.) Synths - FA07; APs - PC4

 

2,) EPs - PC4; Organs - FA07

 

3.) Strings (acoustic) - PC4; Strings (synth) - FA07; Pads - FA07

 

4.) E-bass - PC4

5.)  Brass (acoustic) - PC4; Brass (synth) - FA07; Other? - Not sure what you mean here. Synths? Woodwinds? Percussion? Guitars?

[eric.B]

1 hour ago, Moonglow said:

Some of your preferences are expressed in interesting pairs. Here’s my $0.02.

 

1.) Synths - FA07; APs - PC4

 

2,) EPs - PC4; Organs - FA07

 

3.) Strings (acoustic) - PC4; Strings (synth) - FA07; Pads - FA07

 

4.) E-bass - PC4

5.)  Brass (acoustic) - PC4; Brass (synth) - FA07; Other? - Not sure what you mean here. Synths? Woodwinds? Percussion? Guitars?

Thanks. I created my list thinking which sounds I use most so hence the pairing like synths and APs.

Other sounds are all the ones not mentioned in the first 5 categories like accordions, harmonica, percussion, etc. I hardly play guitar sounds on keys.

 

So it seems like I need both boards 😁

[AnotherScott]

10 hours ago, eric.B said:

Besides the extra keys that must be a reason why a lot of players use (at least) 2 keyboards, to supplement each other.

Yes, because different boards have different strengths (and even TWO may not get you everything you'd ideally want), but there are other reasons, like wanting to have a piano-oriented action for playing piano and an organ-oriented action for playing organ, or for having backup in case a board fails, or to have more total key real estate for quick sound switching/combining without having to spend so much time setting up splits in advance and then worrying about making sure you don't cross into the wrong sound while playing.

 

10 hours ago, eric.B said:

Regarding the sample memory: a number for the memory size doesn't mean a lot to me, is 256MB adequate or limited?

I do realize it depends a lot how many samples you need for the music you play.

Yeah, that's a toughie, there's no way to generalize. Lots of people never use ANY sample expansion memory (heck, most keyboards don't even have any). Some use a small amount, for an occasional one-shot special effect and such. Some load them up with custom multi-velocity keyboard-playable sounds they've sampled from their VSTs. So on one hand, 256 mb can be a lot, and OTOH, 2 GB can be not enough. Unfortunately the answer will ultimately come from your own experience. You'll start using it (or not), and you'll see how fast it goes, for the kinds of things you want to do.

 

10 hours ago, eric.B said:

Kurzweil praises the KB3 ToneReal organs but Rolands are considered better?

I'd give Roland the edge, but sometimes the KB3 can be better, i.e. I think it has the better overdrive, and it's nice to have all 9 sliders instead of only 8. But keyclick, rotary, CV all favor the Roland, I think.

 

10 hours ago, eric.B said:

Is Nord still considered one of the best brands for organs?

Depends who you ask. ;-) But I think most people would probably say it beats the PC4-7 and Fantom-0.

 

10 hours ago, eric.B said:

maybe a stage piano / live performance board could also be an alternative?

There are certainly more options besides these two. The MODX+ is in the same general feature/price/weight category but there are other possibilities as well.

 

2 hours ago, Moonglow said:

1.) Synths - FA07; APs - PC4

I'd agree, especially if you are including how much easier synth editing is on the Roland. But strictly in terms of sound, I'd say the PC4 advantage in piano is more substantial here than the Roland advantage in synth. Both in the sound and in the playability form the action

 

2 hours ago, Moonglow said:

2,) EPs - PC4; Organs - FA07

Again, I agree. I discussed the organs above. And like piano, and I think the Kurz advantage in EP is quite substantial.

 

2 hours ago, Moonglow said:

3.) Strings (acoustic) - PC4; Strings (synth) - FA07; Pads - FA07

Yeah, I think I'm with you again here.

 

2 hours ago, Moonglow said:

4.) E-bass - PC4

I actually haven't compared these. But it's funny that MMM above said the reverse.

 

2 hours ago, Moonglow said:

5.)  Brass (acoustic) - PC4; Brass (synth)

I'm not sure about acoustic brass, it could depend on exactly what you're looking for. Roland's SuperNATURAL brass solo instruments have some nice authentic behaviors in how they play which I don't think you can duplicate on Kurz, and if you load the SRX expansion, you get various articulations (i.e. doits, falls, and shakes), which I don't think I've heard on the Kurz. OTOH, a straight brass ensemble might well favor the Kurz.

[eric.B]

13 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

There are certainly more options besides these two. The MODX+ is in the same general feature/price/weight category but there are other possibilities as well.

For people using a stagepiano or a board like a Roland VR730: I realize it isn't a workstation and aimed at playing live but do you find it lacking?

[Moonglow]

16 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I'm not sure about acoustic brass, it could depend on exactly what you're looking for. Roland's SuperNATURAL brass solo instruments have some nice authentic behaviors in how they play which I don't think you can duplicate on Kurz, and if you load the SRX expansion, you get various articulations (i.e. doits, falls, and shakes), which I don't think I've heard on the Kurz. OTOH, a straight brass ensemble might well favor the Kurz.

 

Good points. There's a SuperNATURAL trumpet I really like and I've created some nice ensemble brass Scenes using combinations of Fantom programs, although I'd probably still give the nod to Kurz for orchestral brass.

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, eric.B said:

For people using a stagepiano or a board like a Roland VR730: I realize it isn't a workstation and aimed at playing live but do you find it lacking?

That's too broad of a question. People's needs are different. And comparing VR-730 to Fantom-07, VR-730 to PC4-7, and any particular stage piano to either of those boards, can all yield different answers, i.e. you might find the VR730 lacking for your needs, but not necessarily other boards "like" the VR730, or this or that stage piano.

 

Maybe it would be best if you explained what it is you need a board to be able to do. Then there would be a reference point as to how well a VR730 or any particular stage piano could fill that need, and whether/where it would fall short of the PC4-7/Fantom-07 for your purposes.

 

 

[Delaware Dave]

or maybe it would be best if you opened up a new topic.  This one is the fantom vs the Kurz.  Now the topic shifts to the VR series but users read the topic and don't know the topic has shifted. Owners of the VR might be able to positively contribute to that discussion but don't know its even happening.

[ABECK]

Soundwise, I think both are going to get you what you would need (kind of guessing what you "need", but both have big enough libraries and decent enough engines to cover most bases.)  Both are fairly light and probably have similar build quality.

So that comes down to User Interface, tactile controls and keybed feel.  If you play a lot of organ, the 9 sliders on the PC4 would be a strong advantage.  If you have a need to create a lot of patches (e.g. you play a lot of cover tunes with a variety of signature sounds), then out of the box, the Roland will likely have a less steep learning curve.

[eric.B]

Fair points, and I realize I'm shifting from the topic title.

Owning a MOX8 I was looking for something similar available today with 61/73/76 keys but probably another brand as for another flavor of sounds.

And I'm seeing more options as I look further into today's offer of keyboards, especially as I will be focusing on playing and not on sequencing, deep editing, vocoding, etc. with it.

Although, if the features are there, who knows if they may come in handy in  the future.

 

So I want to make a shortlist of several boards which seem appealing and try to find a store so I can try them out.

[Tom Williams]

On 9/15/2022 at 9:18 AM, eric.B said:

So I want to make a shortlist of several boards which seem appealing and try to find a store so I can try them out.

[Stokely]

No doubt.  I went into Sam Ash the other day, and got a bit excited when I saw they had put the keyboards back into the big keyboard room.  That lasted until I looked at what they had.  They didn't even have the "usual suspects", the Modx/Fantoms.   It was a sea of crap controllers and low end gear with an outlier or two like a Kawai MP7.  I don't think they had a single keyboard you'd call a synth other than (arguably) one Krome.

Hilariously I got a Sam Ash marketing email about taking 15% off from items "on the wall" at the stores...yeah, you need to have something I actually want first.

 

[Delaware Dave]

When I look at the full package FEATURE offering I would have to lean toward the Kurz.  Semi bias because I own the PC3 and have been very happy with the choice.  It's been a workhorse and still competes 14 years after its release date.

[eric.B]

10 hours ago, Tom Williams said:

Alas my remark was serious. 

Where I live you dont have to be surprised only 1 or 2 (maybe even none) of the boards you want to try are available. 

Dont even start about the 61/76/88 versions. 

[CEB]

The Roland because I really like the SP404 functionality built into the Fantom.