Kurzweil Forte won't boot - any suggestions?

[Stokely]

Besides throw it in a ****ing river, or using it as a reason to avoid this company (as if I needed one after my experience with the pc3, once bitten wasn't a lesson I learned I guess).

If it were not obvious, I'm freaking pissed.  This won't even work as a controller if it can't turn on.   I'm going to plug it into my interface in case the screen is the only issue, but the fact that it's not making sound with the default patch that comes up says it just isn't booting.    This is immediately coming up with a blank screen.  I tried the contrast in case that was it.  Disconnected all cables including the power for a bit, power is the only thing connected now.

Putting my disgust aside, is there a safe mode on this thing?  My pc3 was able to boot properly from safe mode after it freaked out, but I can't find anything like that in the Forte manual.

Edit: found it, "boot" or "safe mode" searches didn't find it, but eventually in section 15 they mention to hold enter while powering up.   I held it for a while, nothing.

Edit 2:  I redacted one of my more angry comments since I truly don't know what caused this.  
 

[Stokely]

Well, edit:  moved the power cable to a different outlet and it booted right up.

The outlet it was in is shared with my MODX and neither keyboard has had any kind of issue there for months until today.

Kurzweils seem to be very prone to power-related issues but I don't think we actually have any power issues here....however, I'm going to hook both up to my UPS for whatever good that might do.

So now I'm kind of in tentative mode for gigging this thing.  It might never do it again, or it might do it next time.    This crap is why I'm scared to gig with laptops,  I want my keyboards to turn on and freaking work.

[Sean M. H.]

I gig a Kurzweil PC4...and reliability concerns are one of only a couple of nits I'd had to pick with that board (the other being that it can be difficult to make simple patch edits, because each "partial" has to be edited; a downside inherent with the complexity of VAST I suppose).  I generally love it...but between the Pitch Bend issue, issues with the power switch, boot up issues, and other random glitches etc I've heard about...I've always felt a bit uneasy about using it without a backup. To be clear, I haven't had ANY of these issues, but I've certainly heard enough horror stories to be worried!

 

I also feel less confident in Kurzweil than larger companies like Yamaha, Roland and Korg in terms of build qualityand reliability...could be totally unfair/unwarranted though...

[Doerfler]

51 minutes ago, Sean M. H. said:

 

I also feel less confident in Kurzweil than larger companies like Yamaha, Roland and Korg in terms of build qualityand reliability...could be totally unfair/unwarranted though...

could be

[Stokely]

I've been doing gigs since the early 80s as a teenager and have only had issues with a few keyboards.  Two of these few are by one company.   

It is fair to say that while those both looked in pristine shape, I did buy them used.   I probably am going to stop buying used gear.  Guitar Center has a 45 day return policy but this is well outside that.  Sweetwater has a two year warranty (which I have successfully used on a smaller item) and so that might be my spot from now on.

Follow on question then:  if I decide to leave this at home powered on as a controller (love the action)--should I get something else

I notice the Yamaha YC73 is a perfect fit for the very nice case I bought for the Forte 7.   It checks a lot of the same boxes, more complex synth patches I can get from the MODX or ipad that I gig with.   It has a good organ to back up B-3x in case it doesn't work.    I'd prefer to have different choices in piano from what I have, but no huge deal.   Any thoughts on the action of that one?  I wish I could try one out.  I have a rolling soft case for an 88 as well, so the larger YC88 would be the option if it's just night and day better than the action on the YC.

[ChrisDespo]

I gig w/ Forte and PC361 regularly for past couple years and I’ve been using an UPS for each gig, as well as in my house and it seems to keep them both happy (hope I don’t jinx myself lol).  I love the actions of both as well.  
 

Aside from clean power the UPS provides it keeps everything up and running in case of power blips which do occur on my outdoor gigs occasionally and this seems to work well for me thus far.  

 

I’ve also opened them both up over the years and reseated connectors to make sure they aren’t loosening up from moving them as well (I had an issue with PC361 in particular before UPS that seemed to be fixed after doing this) and I used deoxit on connectors too.  

 

Hopefully this can be of some help.  All the best… 

[Stokely]

I bought a small UPS with (supposedly) some kind of voltage correction for gigs after weirdness at one venue...and haven't been bringing it out, it's heavy and I hadn't had any further issue.  I now use a rolling Husky tool cart for cables so maybe I'll see if it will fit in there.   I suppose it could just take the place of the Furman strip I normally bring.

Just curious, what ups do you use?  I might not want to argue with success, I can use mine at home (was intending to actually to try to keep my router from going down in power blips.)

Regardless this was at home, hadn't been moved in a month.  The fact that it worked right away with a different outlet, same power cable, is interesting.

I'm not super handy (understatement) and I'd worry I'd do more harm than good opening them.   If it gets where it won't boot at all, no risk!   I did toss a friend who has fixed a keyboard or two 50 bucks to check my pc361 (screen issue, no dice), so I might see if he wants to work on it.

[ChrisDespo]

I’m not near it at moment but I’m pretty sure it’s this one:  APC UPS

 

it’s a beast (heavy!) but I’d rather have it with me than not.

 

I had found some videos about opening them and it wasn’t too bad really (both of mine are long out of warranty so not worried about voiding that).  I try to take pix of everything as I’m opening it to make sure I put it back like I found it and don’t end up with an “extra screw” or something like that lol.  If you can handle a screwdriver you can probably handle getting inside both of them.  If I can find those vids I’ll try to post a link to them if it will help.

[Jim Alfredson]

Maybe that outlet is slightly loose and during the boot up phase it got jiggled a bit, causing the unit to reboot but leaving weird stuff in memory? Leaving it off for awhile cleared the memory and let it boot again?

 

Just guessing. These modern digital boards are basically task specific computers. If the data gets corrupted, they can hang just like a regular computer. And that data can stick around in the memory for quite some time. My JBL 708p powered monitors have a similar issue. One of them will sometimes go “dead” and not emit sound. Rebooting hangs it. If I unplug it for a day and try again, it boots fine. It has all sorts of fancy DSP and memory. 
 

Sorry you’re having this issue. I have to add that I use my Forte for gigging all the time and have never had any issues. 

[Stokely]

Thanks everyone, I'll admit I'm a bit gun shy on this issue after my pc3 had booting problems at one gig (and never did make it back completely I don't think).

I'll be using the UPS moving forward and keeping a wary eye on this.  As I say, if it can't boot that's a double whammy because then I can't use it as a controller at home.

Now this is going to sound completely strange after complaining I want things to turn on and work:  I just bought mainstage     I am very invested in software at home, run an older but still pretty good macbook pro with Logic and I honestly haven't been doing all that much with it.  If the Forte doesn't end up working--or maybe if it does--I might explore the route of having a controller with this laptop.   That controller might very well end up being my pc361, which is sitting in a case.  It has an audio problem and pitch wheel and the latter is a bummer, but mainly I'd be using piano and some poly synths.  I have an interface in my Modx, and another one in my Key Largo.   Speaking of my Modx, that is the backup plan because it has proven it can do shows by itself.

This is basically an attempt to use "sunk costs" before possibly running out and getting another expensive computer in a box with keys.  If reliability isn't 100% with either, it kind of opens up possibilities.   I've already been doing this with my ipad for many shows now, but considering all the nice plugins (on top of logic stock ones) I have, I'll see how this goes at home first at least.   I'll probably come to my senses and be out 30 bucks  lol!

[Svendoggy]

Saw your post while searching for an answer to my own Kurz Forte isssue. I have two Fortes; mainly because one usually needs to be in the shop or on its way at any given time. I have NEVER had a less reliable keyboard. That said, when it works it sounds great; and the wealth of sounds is impressive. But damn!...if it's not one thing it's another with this keyboard. So did you get your issue solved, and are you still using it?

[Stokely]

I didn't, not really.  It boots, sometimes.   I haven't done the testing I intended with different sockets/measuring power, but so far I can't reliably reproduce it.  The same cable, same outlet one time doesn't work and another time does.  Same thing with other cables and outlets.

So I'm resigned to using this as a home studio controller, provided it boots and stays on...I like the action but it's way overqualified for such limited duty!  Such a great form factor for live gigging but I don't dare use it.  My older pc361 is also on controller duty, with a screen that normally doesn't work, noise in the audio outs and a pitch wheel that goes haywire all the time (so I disabled it).

I don't think the issue would be something as silly as a loose cable--I don't manhandle it between failures and successes-- but I'm going to open it up to see if anything obvious shows.

Needless to say this being my second Kurzweil with issues I'll never buy another one nor ever recommend the brand.  I wish I'd listened to the old "once bitten" adage, though it was a newer model so I hoped it might prove reliable.  

[b3plyr]

In the course of having a PC88MX, K2600, and a Forte, I have never had a problem with Kurzweil. And this is without using a UPS.

[Delaware Dave]

My PC3 is as solid as the day i bought it.  Not one issue. I would reseat the cables, there is probably one that is loose.  Does the Forte have a trap door on the bottom like the PC3 does where you can reseat the cables?

[Stokely]

For my part, I haven't checked yet.  I hope that's all it is.  It's got so many good things going for it.

To be fair to both my keyboards, they were used though in mint condition outwardly at least.   Neither developed an issue until well after Guitar Center's 45 day period of course  I've had the pc361 looked at by a tech and it would need a new screen.  It made it through hundreds of gigs and I paid 875 for it, so no regrets there.

[Mr -G-]

Or maybe the main switch is faulty...

[Stokely]

That was a thought, because at least once I adjusted the power cable seating and it booted soon after.  Only that once though.  Might be faulty, or a loose cable in that area.  When it fails it's getting some amount of power, because I get a white screen.  It just doesn't move on from there.

I'll see if the same guy who checked my pc361 is available to take a look at it, providing I don't see anything obvious.   These suggestions are giving me a bit of hope that it's fixable   We'll see.

[Delaware Dave]

If you're getting a white screen I'd definitely check the cables. Kurz does a peripheral check on bootup, checking keybed, screen, wheels, etc.. 

[Viv Savage]

I had a boot-up problem once with my Forte 7 and while it was very concerning, I believe I was able to address it by following someone’s advice from the FB group and unplugging all cables including pedals.  As I recall there might be an issue with a boot-up procedure relating to peripherals like Delaware Dave says, and I think it might have had to do with pedals moving during boot-up.   I haven’t had the problem again.

[Stokely]

Thanks everyone.  I did unplug everything and it's worth noting perhaps that a couple times when I changed outlets it suddenly started working.  Not consistently on that new outlet, it would refuse to boot after that on the new outlet and it would then work again on the old outlet, but it seems that something is being "jolted".   Talking 10 attempts to boot at one outlet, then first time it works on another.   But unfortunately it wasn't something I could reliably reproduce to get an "aha".   Currently I only have a power cable in and I've tried several different ones to see if that makes a difference, no dice.  

After work today if I have time I'll open 'er up.

[Stokely]

Funnily enough...

I cleared some space on our big dining room table, got some firm foam pillows and a spread to make a contrasty and supportive work space,  bowls to hold screws etc and then went into my office to get the Kurzweil.   "Let's fire it up to see if it works now", this after a week or so of it being off.  Worked.   Turned off, tried again.  Worked.   There aren't any other cables plugged into it fwiw.

Yay?      As a database engineer, there's almost nothing worse than the problem you can't reliably reproduce.  It hurts my brain.

One difference from most of the prior attempts is that the cable is going right into the wall, no power strip.  Early on I suspected an old strip I was using and changed it out--along with trying a few different power cables that worked on other gear--still searching for that elusive "gotcha"    As soon as it refuses to boot again I'll open it up, I'll give it some more attempts.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Any chance you're using an FC7 by chance? I remember hearing about issues with the FC7 + static bricking Kurzweils in the past.

[Delaware Dave]

Either it is the power strip or loose connections inside the board.  If there is a trap door underneath open it up and reseat all connections. Dont ask me why but 9 times out of 10 it is those connections as opposed to the ones on the boards  inside the kurz itself.  

[Viv Savage]

I was using an FC7 when mine did the white screen o’ death.  I’m putting my money on pedals moving and sending values during boot-up. 

[Stokely]

I've had no pedals connected (or any cables other than power) for a while now.

Well, I thought I might have a pattern but while writing this it did a left turn.

I had noticed:
If it's been on for a while, it won't boot up if turned off.  If left off for a time after that, it boots up.
If it hasn't been on for a while, I can turn off/on any number of times (well, several at least) and it works.

The left turn is that after an hour being on, I turned it off and back on.  It stayed white for at least 3 times longer than normal but finally did boot up.
I then turned it off and on again, and it stayed white for maybe double THAT time before booting up.
In the past, I've left it on the white screen for far longer and it never did boot.
Edit:  Wow, I did it yet again after another 15 minutes of being on, and this time the boot took at least five minutes!


This suggests to me that maybe something is overheating?  Or some power supply weirdness?  I can't think of any other reason the time being on would matter, and I certainly don't understand how the white screen would hold for differing lengths of time.   This doesn't seem like a loose cable but who knows.  I'm not touching it to potentially jog anything after hitting the switch.

If it is a heat problem--and that was a SWAG--it is booting more than it did a few months ago...and my room is probably 8 degrees cooler right now than the normal AC temp (I'm in FL, AC is unfortunately on 10 months out of the year).  Hmmm....I could test by bringing it out to the porch where it's a fair bit cooler yet.

[Stokely]

Can't edit my post, was going to tack this on.

I left the Forte off all night, just flipped it on.  The white screen lasted about five seconds, then it booted.  That's the fastest I've seen it boot ever.    The longest was yesterday, it took five minutes to reboot when it had been on for an hour.   

[Delaware Dave]

Reseat the connections to eliminate it as an issue.  If that doesn't solve your issue then I would next look at the power supply being dicey.

[vonnor]

Had this happen to my Forte7 only once. At band rehearsal, not at a gig. The screen got all the way through startup til it hit the OS Version screen, then went dark and powered off. I had all the midi, audio, and foot pedals plugged in the back panel before I turned on the power, and had the MIDI-In and MIDI-Out reversed by accident (not saying this was the cause, just for situational awareness). I unplugged everything except the foot pedals and it started right up no issues.

 

~ vonnor

 

 

 

 

[Stokely]

I agree with Dave (though I'm far from any kind of electrical engineer)...this seems like a power problem.  Or I guess it could be a software issue without a power or heat problem, but if so why consistently does it take longer to boot the longer it's been on?   And once booted there's no issue that I've noticed.

And again I have nothing plugged in but the power cable right now.

I'll take the suggestion and open er up and see what I can see.  I'm a bit hesitant to do it but I have little to lose.  I remember trying to fix keys on my JX10, open things up and cleaned the membrane.  Fixed a couple keys but made a couple more go out...yeah.

I will say that if this consistency holds, at least I know I don't have a brick....it would work fine for a controller so that's a bit of a silver lining.

It also occurs to me that I don't think I've tried any kind of reset or "system boot" like the pc361 had...on that keyboard, I was able to boot into a safe mode (to use the old windows xp term) and from there boot and it fixed the booting issue on that keyboard.  I'll check into that.  I have some patches but that's the least of my worries, might save them out first though!

[Stokely]

Well...I've kind of hit an impasse.

I have no experience with working on anything (hardware at least) and I see about a billion screws with no idea which I should mess with and which I shouldn't.  I tried taking the ones off the bottom that appear to be holding on the bottom plate (and not to mount something internal, hopefully) but that plate won't come off.

The last thing I want to do is make this thing into a total brick.  I'm going to put the screws back on, hope I didn't **** it up and make a decision.

Keep it as a controller, don't throw good money after bad.    It has booted consistently in the past two days even after being on all day (though it did take five minutes).  

or
Contact a local shop if I can find one that can take a look.  If their bench fee to even open it is too high I'm going to say **** it and go with option 1.

I guess option 3 is to discount it massively and sell "as is" to someone that is either happy with it booting slow, or thinks they can fix it.  If that discount is too massive I'll just keep as a controller (and that's assuming I could find a buyer, which I doubt).

Tired of this shit honestly.  I just want my gear to work and I'm ready to move on.