New 12-string 335-style thin-line hollow body guitar from Guild!

[Mark Schmieder]

https://guildguitars.com/g/starfire-i-12/

 

I'm multi-tasking like crazy, so have barely had time to briefly skim the specs, but it looks enticing. Hopefully there are audio demos; I'll check after dinner.

[KuruPrionz]

Not sure who makes this hardware or where you could get one but I have a 12 string Daisy Rock guitar with a bridge that has 12 saddles so you can get perfect intonation up and down the neck. Somebody must be selling one somewhere, it would make that Guild completely top notch (if it doesn't already have one).

 

The guitar at this link is just like mine. No affiliation, not my guitar and I don't know the poster. That said, it's a cool guitar. The Guild is cooler but I didn't see a spec on the bridge. 

https://reverb.com/item/2450971-blow-out-sale-daisy-rock-retro-h-12-electric-12-string-w-hard-shell-case

[Scott Fraser]

That's crazy affordable, & I love the pickup switching options, especially that both pickups when split are hum canceling. But they need a few more finishes. I'll take either a sunburst or natural.

[Mark Schmieder]

Can't find any audio demos, but there are some of the Starfire IV 12-string, that sound pretty good. That would flew in under the radar about four years ago.

[Caevan O’Shite]

5 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

Not sure who makes this hardware or where you could get one but I have a 12 string Daisy Rock guitar with a bridge that has 12 saddles so you can get perfect intonation up and down the neck. Somebody must be selling one somewhere, it would make that Guild completely top notch (if it doesn't already have one).

 

The guitar at this link is just like mine. No affiliation, not my guitar and I don't know the poster. That said, it's a cool guitar. The Guild is cooler but I didn't see a spec on the bridge. 

https://reverb.com/item/2450971-blow-out-sale-daisy-rock-retro-h-12-electric-12-string-w-hard-shell-case

The very first thing that I look for in any advertised 12-String Electric is an intonatable 12-Saddle Bridge. If it's only six saddles or- three saddles, or some doofy single saddle design- the next questions are, (A) could it easily enough be replaced with a 12-Saddle bridge, and (B) would it be worth the hassle, as opposed to purchasing a guitar with 12 saddles to begin with?

For the price of this Guild, I'd consider a possible 'mmmaaaybee... '  Or, maybe not. The competitors that first come to my mind, the Reverend Airway 12 and the Rivolta Combinata 12, are considerably more expensive- but they also don't seem to require any kind of upgrades or replacement parts just to make them play right to begin with. Six saddles on a 12-String electric is STUPID. They should be embarrassed that they put it out with only six saddles.  
         
 

[Mark Schmieder]

It has a very narrow nut. Just like the CURRENT version of the lovely Gretsch that I own. My Gretsch is nice but imperfect in ways that can't be corrected without heavy investment that isn't worth it. So I'm always on the lookout for another archtop semi-hollow 12-string. I tried the Hagstrom and love my Viking baritone, but their Viking 12-string was way too aggressive and non-versatile in range of sound for my tastes. I have higher hopes for this new Guild model.

 

Make sure to look at the diagram of all the push-pull settings. I'm wondering if this instrument could replace both my Gretsch and my Danelectro 12-string!

[Winston Psmith]

A buddy is the local Guild rep, and he has one on hand. I'll see if we can meet up, so I can give a full report.

[Caevan O’Shite]

21 minutes ago, Winston Psmith said:

A buddy is the local Guild rep, and he has one on hand. I'll see if we can meet up, so I can give a full report.

THAT would be so very cool!
       
 

[Ivan May]

Whilst Rickenbacker tends to be the leader of the electric 12 string pack, Guild and Gretsch have also made some really good 12 string electrics.

 

John Lennon played a Guild Starfire XII for a short time.

 

 

 

[KuruPrionz]

2 hours ago, IMMusicRulz said:

Whilst Rickenbacker tends to be the leader of the electric 12 string pack, Guild and Gretsch have also made some really good 12 string electrics.

 

John Lennon played a Guild Starfire XII for a short time.

 

 

 

Rickenbacker gave a 12 string to George Harrison, who used it on Hard Days Night. That gave them a head start. To be honest, I find their necks to be so thin that I can't play clean and clear on them at all. I much prefer the Fender solid body 12 string and while I don't care for the bodies or the stock pickups, the electric Ovation 12 strings from the 70's have fantastic necks, first company to use carbon fiber reinforcement on their necks and the 12s have ebony fretboards and came with Schaller tuners. Under-rated because ugly. The Deacon was one of those love/hate sort of guitars and the Preacher is just kinda homely. Both of them had hot, rock and roll sounding pickups, I like something more chimey sounding. The Fender 12 sounded fantastic, fully intonatable bridge as well. The Ricky's sound good too. 

[Larryz]

Mark, it has been pointed out, 12 saddles would always be better than 6 when it comes to adjusting intonation.  However, I would not pass up a great feeling, great sounding, great playing 12-string just because it had 6 saddles and there were not any 12 saddle replacement bridges.  Tons of guitar makers put them out with 6 saddles and adjusted the intonation in their builds that work just fine. Rickenbacker even put out 6's with a 12 upgrade.  Before ordering the 12, I have heard a tech suggest checking the nut cut and using the original string gauges.  Not all intonation problems are at the bridge.  I wonder why all those 12-string acoustics can get by without any adjustable saddles?  (And still have great intonation).  Something in the build maybe?  I had a Fender Coronado 12 Hockey Stick semi hollow back in the early 70's for about a year before I realized I really preferred a 6-string on 99% of my tunes...

 

Take a clip-on tuner to a guitar store and try before you buy.  You can check the intonation in less than two minutes and know if you should buy a 12-string guitar with only 6 saddles.  My great mom and pop shop have all their guitars set up before putting them out on the rack.  If you are ordering on-line SW does a pretty good inspection before shipping, but MF has the best return policy if the intonation is off...  

 

I'm not a 12-string player (as mentioned above) but I do have one question for those that play them.  Do you prefer the wound string above of the plain octave string or do you prefer the wound string below the plain octave string?  I think I would like the wound string above the octave string if I ever do order a Rick...😎  

[Mark Schmieder]

Yeah, I've had a few opportunities to buy a Rickenbacker over the years, but hate the way they feel, which is a killer for me in spite of the sound.

 

I like my Gretsch for the most part, and it is a model year where the neck was briefly wider. But I like Guild way more as a company, especially since Cordoba bought them and ramped up the quality another few notches. All of my recent guitar family purchases have been Guild, and there are no disappointments.

[CEB]

In general I think the question of number of saddles is overrated.   Its a constant argument with Tele groups.  Three saddles is perfectly fine.  A big problem is people don't always understand how to tune a guitar.  Peterson tuning offsets help a lot. Live you need to tune in silence anyway.

 

But on a 12 string where the the pitch spread on a single saddle is a full octave I don't know.  I have only had one electric 12 and it was a white EDS-1275.  It was a 6 saddle tune-o-matic but I frankly didn't use the 12 string neck much at all.  It just looked cool.  I wish I still had it. 

 

For what it is worth,  One saddle.

 

[Caevan O’Shite]

On 7/20/2022 at 8:14 PM, KuruPrionz said:

To be honest, I find their [Rickenbacker's 12 string] necks to be so thin that I can't play clean and clear on them at all.

Just curious- have you ever gotten your hands on a 660/12 or 660/12TP (  !! TP as in Tom Petty signature model)? Their necks are wider at the nut than most other Rics.

(Oh- and they also come with 12-saddle bridges. Want one with even wider string-spacing with those 12 saddles? There's at least one aftermarket replacement offering out there, from Winfield Vintage... )

Gad I'd love to have a 660/12TP... !!         💖✨


 

 

2 hours ago, CEB said:

For what it is worth,  One saddle.
 

 

First- Love and respect. One of the very finest musicians to ever come along. Towering, impressive, moving achievement- always delivered with a nonchalant, casually unassuming smile as if to say, "Shucks, 's nothin' really, I'm just havin' fun... "... !

Although- for what it's worth, one compensated saddle, and only six strings, not octave courses...
         
 

[surfergirl]

My step-father is big fan of Tommy Emmanuel, and we took my mother and him to see him in Jan 2020, just before everything shut down. I really enjoyed his playing.  

[KuruPrionz]

3 hours ago, CEB said:

In general I think the question of number of saddles is overrated.   Its a constant argument with Tele groups.  Three saddles is perfectly fine.  A big problem is people don't always understand how to tune a guitar.  Peterson tuning offsets help a lot. Live you need to tune in silence anyway.

 

But on a 12 string where the the pitch spread on a single saddle is a full octave I don't know.  I have only had one electric 12 and it was a white EDS-1275.  It was a 6 saddle tune-o-matic but I frankly didn't use the 12 string neck much at all.  It just looked cool.  I wish I still had it. 

 

For what it is worth,  One saddle.

 

"In general I think the question of number of saddles is overrated. " Yes, and No. Tommy's expensive, custom made acoustic guitar? There is compensation carved into the saddle, I've done that with both my Rainsong 6 and 12 string guitars and it works pretty well. Note that Tommy is playing a 6 string guitar and he is using a microphone to record so it's not technically an electric guitar. 

 

Electric 12 string is another animal. Stay down in the cowboy chords and you can do pretty OK. Go up to the 12 fret and beyond and if you like out of tune chords, there's your baby. 

I don't like the sound, compared to a fully intonated bridge it sounds terrible. 

The 3 saddles on a Tele? if they aren't the modern style with intonation adjustment milled into the saddle then you have 3 choices, make the higher pitched string intonate correctly and the lower pitched string sound out of tune or make the lower pitched string intonate correctly and the higher pitched string sound out of tune OR set the saddle so that both strings are somewhere in the middle and both are out of tune. Multiply that times 3 and yeah, stay below the 5th fret or play only single note lines and you might not bother too many people (depending on their sense of pitch). I don't love guitars like that and it's just too easy to install modern saddles if you want to go with 3 saddles. 

I've had just about everything in my shop at one point or another and guitars that are intonated to play as in tune as possible will be my preference every time (without those insane zig-zag frets that claim to be perfect (depends entirely on your set of strings, you better use what they are using!!!!).

 

The problem only gets more noticeable when there are double courses with octave strings. You could just have 10 intonation adjustments since the 1st and 2nd courses are identical strings. 

I've played and owned fully intonated 12 string guitars, Leo Fender had it right in the 60's, the Fender electric XII had 12 adjustable saddles and sounded fantastic. 

[CEB]

Nah!  All acoustic saddles are simply correctly carved or they aren't.   There isn't a dime's bit of difference between Tommy's saddle and the one That was carved for my Martin.   The old 3 barrel saddles are fine also if you know the guitar and how to tune it.  I have the original style and 6 saddle bridges and a set of Callaham Compensated saddles on my Teles.    They all work.   Heck my Junior is in tune across the neck once I learned how to squeeze it.   LOL  People just like buying fancy stuff.

 

I don't know jack about 12 strings. 

[KuruPrionz]

19 minutes ago, CEB said:

Nah!  All acoustic saddles are simply correctly carved or they aren't.   There isn't a dime's bit of difference between Tommy's saddle and the one That was carved for my Martin.   The old 3 barrel saddles are fine also if you know the guitar and how to tune it.  I have the original style and 6 saddle bridges and a set of Callaham Compensated saddles on my Teles.    They all work.   Heck my Junior is in tune across the neck once I learned how to squeeze it.   LOL  People just like buying fancy stuff.

 

I don't know jack about 12 strings. 

You may consider bridges that allow correct intonation to be "fancy stuff", that's your right. I consider anything that improves or corrects intonation to be an essential aspect of any guitar that I want to sound good. I use a scalloped fretboard because I want easy access to all the microtones that are part of American music. The guitar is intonated correctly so I can correctly play "incorrectly" rather than trying to "correct" an incorrect intonation so I can play "incorrectly. Simply removing another layer of useless and pointless complexity in my mind. 🙃

 

"Heck my Junior is in tune across the neck once I learned how to squeeze it. " Which means it is not in tune unless you have to perform a special procedure that may very well limit you playing things that would be very easy if the guitar was actually intonated. No two ways about that one, it's either correct or it's not. 🤔

 

People play slide in tune (or not) as well, a moveable fret instead of "squeezing" the guitar. I've pushed or pulled notes into something useful often enough. I don't want to be distracted by something like that, I just want to be free to play without "squeezing" just so and no other way. It's like driving a car with one tire that has 7 pounds of air in it and the other 3 have 32 pounds - "If you hold the steering wheel this special way you can sort of drive around." I guess fixing that one tire so driving is uniform is "fancy stuff" too? 🤣

 

As far as 12 strings go, would you want a typical 6th string and a light gauge 4th string intonated identically? Not if you can hear pitches, been there, done that, don't do it any more. 

Even more fun, the 4th course combines a wound string and a plain string that is tuned an octave higher and the 3rd course may be a thin wound string or a fat plain string with a very thin plain string tuned an octave higher. Intonation points are not similar at all and the sound is not pretty even at the 7th fret, unless you like that "out of tune" sound. I don't, a fully intonated 12 string guitar is truly a beautiful thing and "fancy" hardware can make that possible. Settle if you must, I refuse. 😇

 

[Larryz]

+1 CEB, My junior has no saddles and it is what it is for intonation LoL!  No different than having an acoustic saddle when it comes to intonation adjustments.  Many expensive jazz boxes new and vintage come with a carved wooden saddle on top of a floating wood base with only height adjustments.  You better mark the location or tape it in place before removing the strings, so it doesn't move on you and throw the intonation off.  I prefer my two set ups with a wood base and a TOM on top and I have both pinned in place. I have had two Teles and preferred the 6 saddle over the 3 barrels.  I never messed with the 3 barrels as luck would have it, it stayed right on intonation-wise.  And thanks for the Tommy video, he's one (if not the) favorite of my guitar players.  He sounds like he's got the tuning and intonation issues under control with no saddle adjustments LOL! 😎

 

+1 Kuru, I never messed with my Fender 12 intonation and IIRC it only had 6 saddles.  But the intonation stayed right-on (luckily).  I can see having upgrades on the 3 barrel Teles for intonation adjustments as I would probably never get it right LOL! The 6 saddles made it easy.  I think you are on to something with the 12 string electrics having 12 saddles as the two plain and wound strings being an octave apart would be easier to deal with and get it right on.  With the 12 string acoustics it is what it is...😎

[Mark Schmieder]

 

That demo was just posted a few days ago. The first one so far, as near as I can tell. I don't like it as much as my Gretsch or Danelectro.

[Caevan O’Shite]

9 hours ago, Mark Schmieder said:

That demo was just posted a few days ago. The first one so far, as near as I can tell. I don't like it as much as my Gretsch or Danelectro.

Have you gotten your hands on a new Guild Starfire I-12, or are you basing that on this video?
   
 

[KuruPrionz]

13 hours ago, Mark Schmieder said:

 

That demo was just posted a few days ago. The first one so far, as near as I can tell. I don't like it as much as my Gretsch or Danelectro.

First, the gentleman playing the guitar is not very good, at all. Judging from the way he wields his right hand like a weapon (and from the sound of it, uses a heavy pick too), he is a hard rock strummer who can barely pass an audition. He doesn't make the guitar sound good, the attack is harsh and his playing sub-standard.

 

The guitar itself could sound beautiful if put in the right hands. Whether it plays to your preference is another matter, you have to have one in your hands to know that. 

If you have 2 nice 12 strings already there's not much point. 

 

So, there is that. I noticed that when he talks about the tune-o-matic bridge they show a shot of the tailpiece all the way through that part. Another 12 string with 6 saddles, ugh. If I'm not mistaken, your Dano has a fully intonatable bridge, I have one of those bridges and plan on using it for a project 12 string. 🙂

[Caevan O’Shite]

23 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

First, the gentleman playing the guitar... He doesn't make the guitar sound good, the attack is harsh and his playing sub-standard.

 

The guitar itself could sound beautiful if put in the right hands.

And the amp-tone (whether a real amp, or some form of Direct amp simulation) is a bit harsh, frazzy and blatty, as well. Something much cleaner and percussively chimier, like a classis Fender or Vox sound, would have served much better. Or, for that matter, even something more overdriven but tighter with better definition.
 

 

23 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

I noticed that when he talks about the tune-o-matic bridge they show a shot of the tailpiece all the way through that part.

I noticed that, too! All the while stating, "...the guitar employs a trusty Tune-o-Matic bridge, and Stop-Bar tailpiece, to ensure solid intonation along with great sustain."
        
Overall, though, this does seem to be a pretty decent 12-String electric- for the price. The production model electric 12's that I would prefer are also considerably more expensive!
      
 

[Scott Fraser]

You don't get to do an electric 12 string demo without a couple Roger McGuinn intro licks. Just like you don't get to demo a Mellotron clone without playing the Strawberry Fields intro.

[surfergirl]

I love The Byrd's, was listening to their  cover of My Back Pages yesterday.

[Larryz]

I asked once before but never got an answer...do 12 stingers prefer the octave on top of the wound strings or below the wound strings?  The demo shows the octaves above the wound strings and seems to get the Rick Byrds Tambourine style sound.  I think George's Rick had the wound strings on top?  I can research this ??? but thought I would ask the pros on this forum?  

 

ps. I do like the coil tapping feature on the model in question...

[Mark Schmieder]

Good points, it's just that the demo reminded me a lot of the Hagstrom Viking 12-string that I didn't retain in my collection, so I figured I didn't need to consider the player and settings all that much as the basic character of the instrument rang so familiar to me. Probably the same factory, maybe similar specs.

 

Of course I am always willing to be convinced otherwise, but rarely do we have the luxury of "try before you buy" with instruments outside the mainstream.

[KuruPrionz]

2 hours ago, Larryz said:

I asked once before but never got an answer...do 12 stingers prefer the octave on top of the wound strings or below the wound strings?  The demo shows the octaves above the wound strings and seems to get the Rick Byrds Tambourine style sound.  I think George's Rick had the wound strings on top?  I can research this ??? but thought I would ask the pros on this forum?  

 

ps. I do like the coil tapping feature on the model in question...

"I asked once before but never got an answer...do 12 stingers prefer the octave on top of the wound strings or below the wound strings? "

The answer could be "Yes" or it could be "Both", perhaps even "Neither" in case somebody doesn't like 12 strings (they are fired!!!!).

 

Larry Z, as with many things in life - there is no correct method of placing the strings on a 12 string. The octave on top does tend to sound more chimey and the octave below a bit thicker. Rickenbacker 12 string guitars come from the factory with the octave below, you would probably need to cut a new nut to switch them around and I haven't studied the bridge but an Ovation electric 12 string I used to own had a solid metal piece with the intonation machined in, if the Ricky has anything like that it could be problematic changing the orientation. If there are 6 adjustable saddles then the intonation will get worse as you move up the neck, no two ways about it. 

 

I don't recall ever seeing an acoustic 12 string with the octave below, just electric. My Daisy Rock 12 has the octave below, it sounds different and plays different and I like it. 

I've got a project mix and match Ovation solid body (Deacon neck and Preacher body) that I want to get up and running, that one I'll put the octave on top to avoid having to cut a new nut. Then I'll have one of each. 

 

My Rainsong 12 string is octave above and I love it. I just like having different sounds, even if they are subtle. An electric 12 string with octaves above just does not sound like George Harrison's guitar. So it goes...

[Larryz]

Thanks Kuru! I've never got to play a 12 with the octave below.  On your octave below, do you find that you can play just the wound bass sound without the octave chiming in on down strokes?  It would seem harder (if possible) to do with the octave above? 😎

[Caevan O’Shite]

16 hours ago, Larryz said:

...do 12 stingers prefer the octave on top of the wound strings or below the wound strings?

Hehhehhehh... I'm no Pro, but I'm an opinionated bastard who'll rattle off what I think are pros and cons...  

'Depends'. If I really had to choose one or the other, I think I'd go with the 'regular' string on the bottom, octave on top. This gives just a little better definition, more 'fundamental', base of the octave-course pair.

That also makes it a bit easier to emphasize the 'regular' string- but if you're already playing a 12-String, why wouldn't you want to always have the octaves chiming out all the time? Besides, that's what pining for a double-neck is for!