Notation software recommedations please...

[miden]

First off , what I would like to do (I suppose this is the "ideal"??) is open the app, and just start playing. No pre-setup or setting tempos (well tempo I don't mind)  or keys, just press record and off I go.

 

I downloaded the Sibelius trail and it does not seem to be able to accomplish the above, and tbh seems rather "awkward". Are all software notation apps the same? Should I perhaps be looking at an iOS solution instead?

 

It will also need to be able to enter lyrics and chord symbols.

 

Am I asking too much?  I'll probably have more questions, although at this stage I really don't have much of an idea of what to ask

[Mighty Motif Max]

My thinking is to record your performance into a DAW, export as a midi file, import that into Finale or similar, and go from there.

[ElmerJFudd]

You can record and play live into just about any notation app including Sibelius.  You’ll get better results, as in readable notation using step entry from keyboard or mouse and providing the correct time and key signatures.   The reason for this of course is that we don’t play perfectly in time nor do we hold notes for exact durations.   And if you change time signatures or keys, the software isn’t going to recognize that and will start throwing accidentals on everything. 

[miden]

13 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

You can record and play live into just about any notation app including Sibelius.  You’ll get better results, as in readable notation using step entry from keyboard or mouse and providing the correct time and key signatures.   The reason for this of course is that we don’t play perfectly in time nor do we hold notes for exact durations.   And if you change time signatures or keys, the software isn’t going to recognize that and will start throwing accidentals on everything. 

 

 

Yes that is what I have found...I don't want to enter notes via mouse and keyboard though, so unmusical and un-intuitive not to mention time-consuming and an inspiration "cool-off" , and really defeats the purpose of creating something spontaneous.

[ElmerJFudd]

36 minutes ago, miden said:

 

 

Yes that is what I have found...I don't want to enter notes via mouse and keyboard though, so unmusical and un-intuitive not to mention time-consuming and an inspiration "cool-off" , and really defeats the purpose of creating something spontaneous.

Agreed.  The key is to be super comfortable with notation in general.  It’s always easiest to just scratch it out with paper and pencil.   But it looks like crap typically compared to what the software spits out.  With it already on paper, you can take your sweet time learning the software.  As opposed to cleaning up inaccuracies in playing - which takes a lot longer than just putting it in how you want it the first time.  
 

Are you doing parts for other players in your band?   Or just wanting to save ideas?  If it’s a big job/important job - it might be worth recording the audio and hiring someone to transcribe.  But I can’t give great advice as I’m not certain what your goals are.  

 

Here's an example... what I wanted is in the first two bars,  I notated them with the trackpad.  

The next two bars are the result of playing it in instead.  

 

 

[Irena]

I have yet to find notation software that works as intuitively as I would expect. Producing nice clean notation is--for me anyway--tedious and laborious no matter the software. I've been struck though over the last few years by how much MuseScore has closed the feature gap relative to the established commercial players. It takes a while to learn, but so do the others, and the user community Q&A almost always addresses whatever arcane notation issue I'm struggling with. MuseScore is unlikely to be love at first sight for you, but I don't think that any notation software clears that bar for most of us. I'd recommend giving it a look alongside the paid solutions like Finale/Sibelius. 

[miden]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Agreed.  The key is to be super comfortable with notation in general.  It’s always easiest to just scratch it out with paper and pencil.   But it looks like crap typically compared to what the software spits out.  With it already on paper, you can take your sweet time learning the software.  As opposed to cleaning up inaccuracies in playing - which takes a lot longer than just putting it in how you want it the first time.  
 

Are you doing parts for other players in your band?   Or just wanting to save ideas?  If it’s a big job/important job - it might be worth recording the audio and hiring someone to transcribe.  But I can’t give great advice as I’m not certain what your goals are.  

 

Here's an example... what I wanted is in the first two bars,  I notated them with the trackpad.  

The next two bars are the result of playing it in instead.  

 

 

 

Elmer it's pretty much just for recording stuff I play randomly , no fixed project in mind, although one COULD develop from whatever I get down. I reckon I've lost so many creative ideas over the years simply because I didn't record it in any way. Having the notation means if I ever revisit a piece in the future all the notes I played are there, instead of trying to remember what I played from listening to just a recording which I'd then need to transcribe...anyhoo, your thoughts are appreciated and the example was very apt!

1 hour ago, Irena said:

I have yet to find notation software that works as intuitively as I would expect. Producing nice clean notation is--for me anyway--tedious and laborious no matter the software. I've been struck though over the last few years by how much MuseScore has closed the feature gap relative to the established commercial players. It takes a while to learn, but so do the others, and the user community Q&A almost always addresses whatever arcane notation issue I'm struggling with. MuseScore is unlikely to be love at first sight for you, but I don't think that any notation software clears that bar for most of us. I'd recommend giving it a look alongside the paid solutions like Finale/Sibelius. 

 

Thanks for the tip. I'll check it out

[ElmerJFudd]

41 minutes ago, miden said:

 

Elmer it's pretty much just for recording stuff I play randomly , no fixed project in mind, although one COULD develop from whatever I get down. I reckon I've lost so many creative ideas over the years simply because I didn't record it in any way. Having the notation means if I ever revisit a piece in the future all the notes I played are there, instead of trying to remember what I played from listening to just a recording which I'd then need to transcribe...anyhoo, your thoughts are appreciated and the example was very apt!

 

Thanks for the tip. I'll check it out

Right.  I think you’d do just as well perhaps as mentioned above and record your playing to a MIDI instrument track rather than audio.   All the notes are there on a piano roll, you can view it as notation (in many DAWs like Logic, ProTools, etc.) and import into a notation editor - like MuseScore as well.  
 

Are you on macOS or Windows?   Let’s see if we can’t find you free or inexpensive midi sequencing software.   On macOS you can just use GarageBand of course.  
 

https://listoffreeware.com/free-midi-sequencer-software-windows/

[miden]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Right.  I think you’d do just as well perhaps as mentioned above and record your playing to a MIDI instrument track rather than audio.   All the notes are there on a piano roll, you can view it as notation (in many DAWs like Logic, ProTools, etc.) and import into a notation editor - like MuseScore as well.  
 

Are you on macOS or Windows?   Let’s see if we can’t find you free or inexpensive midi sequencing software.   On macOS you can just use GarageBand of course.  
 

https://listoffreeware.com/free-midi-sequencer-software-windows/

 

Thanks, I already have Reaper but it's notation section is awful haha! I've tried a few demos now, Sibelius Musescore Finale. ...not one really worked as I was hoping. Pretty much how thew were years ago. The AI for these apps does not seem to have changed much, but the complexity has

 

I think you are correct though, probs just as easy to record the MIDI into Reaper and then somehow find an app that will accurately transcribe it.

[Adam Burgess]

Having used MOTUs Pro Composer(?) on a Mac Classic, where you can see about 4 bars at once, to Finale 2.5 on a LC II, when I got an educational discount as a lecturer on Sibelius 1.4 on a PowerMac, it was soooo much quicker and looked great.

I've used (put up with?) Sibelius since then - now just 'rent' it monthly if I need it for a project.

I'm very quick on it these days, and can type in notes with the computer keypad quicker (and by sometimes doing things in the wrong order on purpose to make editing/adding articulations easier etc), hitting stuff like chords on an actual MIDI keyboard, and combining the two input methods. It's laborious which ever way you look at it.

I sort of like Dorico, it looks beautiful, but I'm not learning another 'awkward' program. I'll have to put up with Sibelius' quirks and some very strange choices for dialog boxes, and the weird ribbon bar, and… and… 

Tantacrul on YouTube explains everything better than me. It's an hilarious review, but so true.

It's laborious which ever way you look at it. It's laborious which ever way you look at it. It's laborious which ever way you look at it.

[Adam Burgess]

So, if it's for getting ideas down, I'd probs just record into your DAW (with a click if possible), then you can always transcribe it later if you need to. Making notes (reminders) on paper is always easier if there are either bar numbers etc or just landmarks that you feel important. If it's just a short riff - just play it a good few times. Chords and voicings, I still find easier to write with a pen - then, again, transcribe them later using both the recording and the paper notes.

 

[obxa]

All great advice above.  I'll add my 1.5 cents.  All boils down to your needs.   Like most tools, Daws and Notation software do better as they're intended. 

 

If you're just looking to see what you've played,  the notation part of most Daws will do you fine, even it's not the strong suite of any of them.  That said,  Logic does a pretty good job.  Though I wouldn't use it if I needed to actually make a chart/score.   

 

For "legit" score/charts you'll need to check out and use the current 4 or 5 out there.   They all suck and do great at the same time.  So pick your poison and work with the warts.   There is at least a standardized format (Xml). and you can usually import/export from one notation program to another.  Plus if you're DAW will output XML you can always start there for the "creative part", and use the notation software for getting it to the "visual part".     As mentioned, most notation programs read Midi files, but it's not always an easy import.

 

 

I'm a long time Finale user.   I'm so old I started out in school with Jim Miller's Personal Composer on DOS, along with Dr T's sequencing software!    If I have an inspired idea I wouldn't start in Finale to get it down.  I do have to create charts and/or scores most  every week for my Church gig,  plus various show gigs and that's where it shines. But even after all this time, still curse at Finale and it's bizarre way of doing things. 

 

 

  One thing that has saved my sanity (and carpal tunnel)  that will  also work for any notation software, is some sort of Macro Program.  I use Keyboard Maestro (Mac). But I'm sure there are others in Windows world if that's your system.  The Elgato Stream deck is also wonderful. 

[Reezekeys]

On 6/13/2022 at 5:19 PM, miden said:

creating something spontaneous

I have to say, if "creating something spontaneous" is my goal, firing up a notation program would probably be the last thing I'd think about. Open a DAW or midi recording app, create a midi track and start playing. Be spontaneous. Later you can edit out the stuff you don't like and fix the stuff you like but might have done better. THEN export to a notation program.

 

I've been using notation software since the Copyist on the Atari ST. In my experience, notation software has, hands-down, the steepest learning curve of any music-related software. IMO there is no way or reason to be "spontaneous" with this kind of software. It's for getting your finished ideas into a format others can understand, or for you to send to the copyright office (and you don't really need to do that!).

 

I have an old version of Sibelius and after all these years, I'm only reasonably fast in creating a very simple lead sheet. I always start with a hand-written chart to get the form and basic notation down; I find it easier to know exactly what I want to chart out before opening the software, as it avoids a lot of editing down the road. I also still find myself needing to crack the manual a lot since I usually run onto a situation where I need a non-"standard" way of notating something. YMMV, anyway, my .02... good luck!

[Tusker]

On 6/13/2022 at 7:16 PM, miden said:

 

Elmer it's pretty much just for recording stuff I play randomly , no fixed project in mind, although one COULD develop from whatever I get down. I reckon I've lost so many creative ideas over the years simply because I didn't record it in any way.

 

One option is to improvise into a DAW, then move the MIDI notation into a notation app, but do some beat mapping first to line up your grid to the notes: the opposite of quantization. This way you don’t lose the feel of your precious ideas, but they make more sense when viewed later in a score editor or notation. Example below is for logic but I believe Reaper has the same function  … 

 

 

[Franz Schiller]

I've solved that issue in 2 ways:

 

• For the quickest capture of ideas, I have a basic FREE audio recording app. It's called "Audio Record -Audio Recorder1" in the App Store. You don't have to set up projects or nothing. It's just like a tape recorder. Very basic.

 

• I switched my DAW to Digital Performer (DP). DP is very special because it's the only DAW that allows multiple sequences in one project. You can create a whole album in one project.

 

So, every month, I setup a DP project only to capture random ideas. I have a template sequence with my main MIDI keyboard all setup (MIDI tracks and audio tracks). So if I get an idea, I can very, very quickly duplicate the sequence, tap in the tempo, and change the meter if needed. DP's notation abilities are pretty decent. And you can always export MIDI or XML to work on it in another program. But once you have that template ready, you can get recording your MIDI very, very quickly.

 

The only downside is DP has a pretty steep learning curve. But that's because it's so powerful.

 

Good luck!