Mac Studio vs Refurbished Mac Pro

[Iconoclast]

I'm not smart enough to know the actual performance differences BUT, considering that these two systems are near identical price, what else would be the pros and cons?  System to be used exclusively in the studio.

MAC STUDIO
 -M1max 10 core cpu, 24 core GPU, 16 core Neural Engine
 -32G Memory

 -2TB SSHD
 

REFURBISHED NEW MAC PRO 2013-2019 (Factory sealed except to upgrade)
 -2.7 Ghz 12-Core Xeon E5-2697v2
 -128G Memory

 -2 TB SSHD
 -3GV AMD FirePro D500 x 2 GPU

[ElmerJFudd]

It makes sense at this time to choose Apple Silicon if you use your machine for more than just a DAW - areas where software and OS updates are critical to the machine being useful and even useable.  
 

Regardless of processor, Apple cuts off OS updates for every model they make after approximately 5-7 years. The August 2006 Mac Pro lost support in July of 2012, 5y 11m.   The early 2008 Mac Pro lost support in August of 2014, 6y 7m.   A 2019 Mac Pro will be at end of life (as far as Apple is concerned) between 2024 and 2026.  You’ll get more mileage out of the Apple Silicon Studio which is where their attention is focused. 
 

Do you do much 4k or better video editing work?  Because both machines you shared are targeted to that. DAW work doesn’t need the high end graphics, not even for dual monitor support with Logic Pro.  32gb vs 128gb of RAM, are you running Vienna Symphonic Library and audio for video projects? 16-64gb of RAM is plenty for MainStage and most music/song production.  

[KuruPrionz]

10 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

I'm not smart enough to know the actual performance differences BUT, considering that these two systems are near identical price, what else would be the pros and cons?  System to be used exclusively in the studio.

MAC STUDIO
 -M1max 10 core cpu, 24 core GPU, 16 core Neural Engine
 -32G Memory

 -2TB SSHD
 

REFURBISHED NEW MAC PRO 2013-2019 (Factory sealed except to upgrade)
 -2.7 Ghz 12-Core Xeon E5-2697v2
 -128G Memory

 -2 TB SSHD
 -3GV AMD FirePro D500 x 2 GPU

The Mac Studio will be viable for many years to come.

The Mac Pro can run OS 11 Monterey but it will eventually be left behind.

 

Now that I'm running plugins that have been updated to run on Apple Silicon and am purging all of my Rosetta 2 plugins, my M1 Mini with 16gb of ram just rips.

32 gigs and an M1max will serve you well. 

[Iconoclast]

That's two votes in support of long term viability:

What about just straight up performance?

[ElmerJFudd]

3 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

That's two votes in support of long term viability:

What about just straight up performance?

Describe your typical usage. Both of these machines are beasts, overkill even for MainStage/Logic on typical music/song production.  If you do 4k or better video work in Final Cut or use beefy plugins like Vienna Symphonic Library for movie scoring - well, then there’s always need for the most horsepower on CPU/Graphics, memory and storage you can get your hands on. 
 

I’ll tell you what else, your electric bill will be lower with the Studio vs. the Xeons.  

[ElmerJFudd]

Apple’s plugins and third party plugins that are updated for M1 processors run amazingly well.  Some developers have yet to release M1 updates, but every month that list gets smaller.  A lot of those non updated plugins will run anyway, but are not as impressive in their efficiency. 

[Iconoclast]

I rarely do any video work but I've been doing more and more recording with a lot of tracks/plugins.

I think my heavy lifts on plugins right now are Reverbs and Keyscape. But even keyscape isn't that bad anymore.

My current iMac is a 2015 that has a really bad case of kernal task bug that I can't seem to get rid of.  I'm looking to spend more time in the studio and was looking to upgrade and want something that is going be bulletproof for at least a couple years.

[ElmerJFudd]

23 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

I rarely do any video work but I've been doing more and more recording with a lot of tracks/plugins.

I think my heavy lifts on plugins right now are Reverbs and Keyscape. But even keyscape isn't that bad anymore.

My current iMac is a 2015 that has a really bad case of kernal task bug that I can't seem to get rid of.  I'm looking to spend more time in the studio and was looking to upgrade and want something that is going be bulletproof for at least a couple years.

Right, I have a few machines from 2012-2014 that have just or are about to reach the end of their usefulness.  

Check out the benchmark score difference between a 2015 iMac and a Mac Studio (multicore, because Logic/Mainstage is designed to use multicore).  You are not going to be disappointed in the performance gains. 

https://browser.geekbench.com/mac-benchmarks

 

If someone came to me a few years from now and asked if I wanted that Intel Mac Pro for $600-800.  I'd snatch it up just to use as a DAW with whatever version of macOS and Logic still run on it.   But these are computers we are talking about.  Every year that passes they are outperformed by new models and lose value.  
 

i have a 4 core i5 iMac.  It can run 4 threads.  At some point Intel made it possible for newer i5’s to run two threads per core which Logic can take advantage of.  The M1 designs work this way as well.  You’re not going to be disappointed by the performance boost by any m1, m1 pro max pro whatever they call them. These studios eat your iMac for breakfast. 

[Docbop]

I would go with the Mac Studio be it's new and where all things Apple are headed.  For doing mainly audio I would probably just go with  Pro chip versus the Max. 

 

I love my old cheese grater Mac Pro and when working for the church I did double duty as the IT guy for media and graphic departments and we had probably about 10 cheese grater Mac Pros and some previous generation with plastic cases.   So I'm familiar how often Mac Pros can break down.   My old one just collects dust because it once again died and I just didn't want to go through the hassle of fixing it (not sure if it was the PS that died or yet another video card).   At the church the media departments Mac Pro held up pretty good, but the graphic department two Mac Pro's went thru multiple graphic cards and would die and I'd have to cast spell with the various types of Apple resets to get them to boot again.     Never give users the admin password, but the spineless head of IT would cave in to the graphics people.   I finally told him you give them the admin password then you support them don't call me.  So all that my experience with Mac Pros were they broke down more than other Mac and mainly graphic cards (Apple push the hell out of graphic cards) and trying to replace with non-Apple OTC version of the cards didn't always work.    My personal Mac Pro I had Apple care so the first graphic and PS replacement was on Apples dime.   

[zephonic]

I hopped from the classic MacPro to a 16” MBP just last month. I took a long hard look at the Studio, but decided it only made sense with M1 Ultra, if you go for an M1 Max the MBP’s are just better value IMO.

 

 

While not everything is M1 native yet, I don’t think it’s wise to spend a lot of $$$ on Intel Macs this late in the game. If you can have a good working one for under a grand, go for it, other wise I’d just bite the bullet and go with  Apple Silicon. I’m running Cubase 12 in Rosetta and it is nice upgrade from my old 6-core cMP. Once everything has been ported to native I expect it to run better still.

 

I did try to run Logic in native mode but that did not go well. I’ll stick to Rosetta for the time being.

 

 

[KuruPrionz]

11 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

I rarely do any video work but I've been doing more and more recording with a lot of tracks/plugins.

I think my heavy lifts on plugins right now are Reverbs and Keyscape. But even keyscape isn't that bad anymore.

My current iMac is a 2015 that has a really bad case of kernal task bug that I can't seem to get rid of.  I'm looking to spend more time in the studio and was looking to upgrade and want something that is going be bulletproof for at least aa couple years.

One consideration is whether or not your plugins are updated to run on Apple Silicon. 

I use a good number of tracks- 28 on a current project and quite a few plugins. M1 Mac Mini with16 gigs is not causing me any grief now that I've updated and/or removed plugins. I've kept some, waiting for Native Instruments and IK Multimedia to update some things just for one. 

 

I don't see the Intel Macs being a good choice right now unless you can get one cheap and are willing to freeze it where it is. That's not the worst idea either, your decision. 

[miden]

6 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

......Now that I'm running plugins that have been updated to run on Apple Silicon and am purging all of my Rosetta 2 plugins, my M1 Mini with 16gb of ram just rips.

32 gigs and an M1max will serve you well. 

 

 

Yep, same here!

[KuruPrionz]

OK, one question for the OP.

What DAW are you usinig?

 

I ask becasue ProTools is not yet Apple Silicon ready, which means all of your plugins are not ready either. 

They should be updating soon though.

Most other DAWs are good to go at this point. LOTS of .vst plugins are ready and if you install Monterey you will get a comprehensive suite of Apple AU plugins that are all ready to go. 

[Iconoclast]

I haven't used anything but Logic for years now. I've done a little bit of video, but really just matching up already mixed audio files to videos of a few minutes in length.

Arturia/Keyscape/Helix Native are the only real plugins I've been using.

[KuruPrionz]

5 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

I haven't used anything but Logic for years now. I've done a little bit of video, but really just matching up already mixed audio files to videos of a few minutes in length.

Arturia/Keyscape/Helix Native are the only real plugins I've been using.

Logic will run great on the new Mac, Arturia has most (if not all) of their plugins ready to go. 

Spectrasonics (Keyscape) has an Apple Silcon ready version. 

Helix Native will run in Rosetta 2, they are working on Apple Silicon. 

 

You should be good to go software-wise.

[cphollis]

I have both a 2018 MacBook Pro as well as a newer M1 Max one.  The high-end Apple silicon eats HD and 4K video for breakfast: streaming, encoding, effects, etc. as compared to the older machine.  Also an amazing battery life.  For audio stuff (recording, VSTs, soft pianos, etc.) no real difference.  The longer support period from Apple becomes important sooner than you think if you want to keep running current software on it.  Already there are a few titles not running on older OSes anymore.

[Stokely]

I would personally go for a new chip as others are saying.  

The lower of the two Studio models looks like incredible value for my music projects--though I do wonder if I'd even tax an M1 mini all that much.  I'm currently using a 2016 MBP and I'll likely keep using it for a while yet unless it has some kind of issue.  I have noticed some plugins, that still "work" and pass the plugin check in Logic, are using up way more cpu than they used to , so I'm making sure all these are updated.  This after I upgraded to Monterey.

[KuruPrionz]

On 5/19/2022 at 5:20 AM, Stokely said:

I would personally go for a new chip as others are saying.  

The lower of the two Studio models looks like incredible value for my music projects--though I do wonder if I'd even tax an M1 mini all that much.  I'm currently using a 2016 MBP and I'll likely keep using it for a while yet unless it has some kind of issue.  I have noticed some plugins, that still "work" and pass the plugin check in Logic, are using up way more cpu than they used to , so I'm making sure all these are updated.  This after I upgraded to Monterey.

I've been dealing with the same problem, plugins that become CPU intensive.

Latency went up to a point that I did not want to record. 

I've been removing plugins from my DAW, lots of them. I do a search for the vendor with "Apple Silicon" added and see what the status is for updates. 

 

Right now IK Multimedia and Native Instruments are way behind the curve, almost nothing can be used natively in Apple Silicon. 

I don't have time to do a before and after test for each plugin (or rather, I probably have way too many plugins) so I just cleared things off the DAW and will see what gets updated and can stay. 

 

As of today, recording is back to a usable speed. I still have a good selection of essential plugins (EQ and dynamics). My synth selection has changed but is still pretty robust overall. After the update for my interface is available and installed I should be able to get to full native operation and update to the latest version of Monterey. Progress!!!

[Stokely]

In my case, I'm Intel hardware but I upgraded to Monterey.  I probably shouldn't have but I was done after a long project and I was way back on High Sierra, and wanted the newer Logic versions.

I still have to render out some stems from one song that has about 40 tracks of synths and various fx.  I probably can just freeze all the tracks and sidestep the issue (assuming it will even freeze), but ultimately I need to scientifically try out plugins until I spot the sluggards.  As you say, I have WAY too many and this shows a downside of grabbing stuff from so many companies.    I started doing this with some of my most-used ones from u-he and one from Reverb Foundry.  That sucks about Native Instruments, I have noticed that Kontakt tracks seem more cpu-hungry than before (maybe, I don't know exactly how it was before other than "no problems")...but there weren't any updates available.  Valhalla is another vendor I need to check, I use Supermassive and Delay on almost everything.  Plugin Alliance as well.
 

[KuruPrionz]

4 minutes ago, Stokely said:

In my case, I'm Intel hardware but I upgraded to Monterey.  I probably shouldn't have but I was done after a long project and I was way back on High Sierra, and wanted the newer Logic versions.

I still have to render out some stems from one song that has about 40 tracks of synths and various fx.  I probably can just freeze all the tracks and sidestep the issue (assuming it will even freeze), but ultimately I need to scientifically try out plugins until I spot the sluggards.  As you say, I have WAY too many and this shows a downside of grabbing stuff from so many companies.    I started doing this with some of my most-used ones from u-he and one from Reverb Foundry.  That sucks about Native Instruments, I have noticed that Kontakt tracks seem more cpu-hungry than before (maybe, I don't know exactly how it was before other than "no problems")...but there weren't any updates available.  Valhalla is another vendor I need to check, I use Supermassive and Delay on almost everything.  Plugin Alliance as well.
 

Vallhalla has updates for their free software. Supermassive rocks!

I did searches on all of my plugin vendors. Cherry Audio is up to speed, all of the Plugin Alliance plugins I own have now been updated, they are still in the process with others. 

Eventide and New Fangled have updates ready now, Arturia is a go. Izotope is in process, I updated my RX9 and tossed Iris 2 since they won't be updating it. 

I have Reverb Foundry Tai Chi, that is updated. 

 

I think it's more efficient to follow the vendors instead of testing. Some things are pretty "iffy" or just need to go away. SampleTank itself has been updated but it is a host plugin and as far as I can tell, none of the plugins that reside in SampleTank have been updated and many of them won't be. So I've removed it from my DAW for now. 

The same problem haunts Kontakt. I don't have the full version anyway, just Kontakt Player but I can tell you for certain that Native Instruments won't be updating Studio Drummer, which I bought 10 years ago and was my primary drum go-to for a long time. 

 

IK did update MODO Drum so I've switched to that and I can't say I am unhappy. It's a great drum plugin and seems to run nicely. 

 

Bear in mind you should be able to remove plugins from your DAW and leave them installed on your system drive. Then if/when updates come you can install them back onto your DAW. 

I have had far too many choices and in some cases I don't need many at all. The Apple AU plugins are a nice selection and Waveform comes with a nice selection as well. 

Eventide Split EQ is just about the only EQ plugin I'll ever really need, sometimes I use a couple others for the simpler interface. 

 

I'll keep clearing things out, I don't care so much if only one or two plugins are causing the problem, it's nice to be able to decide quickly also!

[Docbop]

Had my first actual hands-on with a M1 Mac yesterday and after the mountain of hype I left thinking no big deal.    My buddy needed a new computer and ask for my help since he's a technophobe.   So with his budget I told him to get the 24" iMac, seems like best bang for buck.    So I was helping him set it up and then got to spend a little time with it.   I thought it was good computer especially for my friend, but for me I think my 27" iMac with ten core Intel i9 is as fast or faster.  I'm still running Catalina on my iMac might move to Monterey but waiting for more software to become compatible.   So I learned one thing I'm in no rush to move M1, I'll wait for more M series upgrades. 

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Docbop said:

Had my first actual hands-on with a M1 Mac yesterday and after the mountain of hype I left thinking no big deal.    My buddy needed a new computer and ask for my help since he's a technophobe.   So with his budget I told him to get the 24" iMac, seems like best bang for buck.    So I was helping him set it up and then got to spend a little time with it.   I thought it was good computer especially for my friend, but for me I think my 27" iMac with ten core Intel i9 is as fast or faster.  I'm still running Catalina on my iMac might move to Monterey but waiting for more software to become compatible.   So I learned one thing I'm in no rush to move M1, I'll wait for more M series upgrades. 

The M1 iMac is basically the M1 Mac Mini in a display case.  You’re on a modern Intel Mac, so the difference is not as noticeable.  But for the OP coming from a 2015 iMac and going to a Mac Studio with a 10-core M1 Max 20-core M1 Ultra with 32gb RAM and an SSD.  Not to mention the graphics processing.  Big upgrade.  

[Docbop]

31 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

The M1 iMac is basically the M1 Mac Mini in a display case.  You’re on a modern Intel Mac, so the difference is not as noticeable.  But for the OP coming from a 2015 iMac and going to a Mac Studio with a 10-core M1 Max 20-core M1 Ultra with 32gb RAM and an SSD.  Not to mention the graphics processing.  Big upgrade.  

Depends on what you're doing.   The single core benchmark tests I've seen the Intel is same and occasionally faster being it's clock speed is slightly higher.  For me I think waiting for next gen' M series will be worthwhile. 

[miden]

3 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

.......SampleTank itself has been updated but it is a host plugin and as far as I can tell, none of the plugins that reside in SampleTank have been updated and many of them won't be. So I've removed it from my DAW for now. .....

 

If you don't mind me asking, what do you use in place of Sampletank?

[o0Ampy0o]

On 5/18/2022 at 11:34 AM, Iconoclast said:

That's two votes in support of long term viability:

What about just straight up performance?

There are game changing turning points in hardware and operating systems that leave everything behind. If you have money to blow then throw it at anything that is best all around performance in the moment. You surely will be buying again soon enough when that performance becomes moot. If you want to invest in something that you will be able to use for a longer time and which has great performance go with the new generation of hardware because Apple is not going to support anything less than the future they are defining. Software is going to go with the flow rather than the puddles or even lakes of stagnancy. Old tech is a dead end. 

[KuruPrionz]

20 hours ago, miden said:

 

If you don't mind me asking, what do you use in place of Sampletank?

SampleTank and Kontakt are both "compilers" or hosts for sounds. 

I haven't found another similar program that is ready for Apple Silicon yet. 

I have a dozen various synths that are up to date. 

Honestly, being a guitarist and having a love for recording analog sounds I didn't use either program much except for drums. IK MODO Drum is up to date and has 10 different drum kits that you can mix and match so that takes care of drums pretty well. 

I have a decent variety of acouustic and electric guitars, nylon string, steel string, 12 string, fretted and fretless bass. There's quite a palette available to me that is hands on and playable. I also have Korg Wavedrum, Roland Handsonic and a box full of thrift store percussion (check the kids towys, if something is "annoying" it might end up there).

Others may find good hosting options, I don't see any way that IK or NI can avoid updating their host programs eventually. 

 

There is a difference between removing a plugin from my DAW and deleting from the hard drive. I still have both Native Access and IK Product Manager and I do keep an eye on their progress. As I've noted, most of the sounds are not updated and many may not need to be updated, a sound file probably won't need it but a program like Studio Drummer that I used in Kontakt will never be updated, it's some 10 years old now. 

[EricBarker]

The stupid truth is that the Pro lines are overtaken very quickly. Apple often doesn't update the Pro lines as much, and it's not uncommon for their consumer lines to outpace them, at a much lower price point. The iMac Pro was overtaken by the iMac 27in in less than 18 months, and never really got a boost. My Trashcan Mac Pro, even though purchased in 2017, was completely outclassed by a 2018 iMac.

 

Secondly, Xeon's weren't perfect, and it's probably for the best that Apple is putting them out to pasture Max processors. The problem is that Xeon's have what I call an arrogant design philosophy. While consumer CPUs developed a lot of higher-level shortcut code to perform specific tasks, Xeon's approach it that they're so powerful they can brute-force their way through any task. They're absolute crap for Video Encoding, for instance, as the i5/7/9 processors hardcoded encoding right into the processor, the Xeon's were about 1/4 the speed or slower. This seemed to be the case across all benchmarks. Sometimes the Xeon's would perform better, but a surprising amount of time they performed worse than their consumer counterparts...

 

...and this is even before Apple Silicone, which completely smokes the Intel stuff. All reports are that the Apple Studio is just a higher power computer in every way to the current Mac Pro, and it will be supported for years, while the Intel-based Pro will be incompatible within 6-8 years or so.

[ElmerJFudd]

9 minutes ago, EricBarker said:

The stupid truth is that the Pro lines are overtaken very quickly. Apple often doesn't update the Pro lines as much, and it's not uncommon for their consumer lines to outpace them, at a much lower price point. The iMac Pro was overtaken by the iMac 27in in less than 18 months, and never really got a boost. My Trashcan Mac Pro, even though purchased in 2017, was completely outclassed by a 2018 iMac.

 

Secondly, Xeon's weren't perfect, and it's probably for the best that Apple is putting them out to pasture Max processors. The problem is that Xeon's have what I call an arrogant design philosophy. While consumer CPUs developed a lot of higher-level shortcut code to perform specific tasks, Xeon's approach it that they're so powerful they can brute-force their way through any task. They're absolute crap for Video Encoding, for instance, as the i5/7/9 processors hardcoded encoding right into the processor, the Xeon's were about 1/4 the speed or slower. This seemed to be the case across all benchmarks. Sometimes the Xeon's would perform better, but a surprising amount of time they performed worse than their consumer counterparts...

 

...and this is even before Apple Silicone, which completely smokes the Intel stuff. All reports are that the Apple Studio is just a higher power computer in every way to the current Mac Pro, and it will be supported for years, while the Intel-based Pro will be incompatible within 6-8 years or so.