Another go with a new all-in one board, or transition to a laptop rig thread.....

[JoJoB3]

VSTs  with controller for live shows:
You may not have to spend too much if you're willing to buy good used, but with any type setup there is always the risk of a crash/freeze/etc.
I still use quite often an old Surface Pro 3 i7  (512gb, 8gb ram), which is about the lowest you'd want to aim for of the Surface series (a full pc in touchscreen tablet form) with a controller and run Omnisphere w Keyscape. It's worked well 90% of the time but again there are moments and risks with computers for shows each week.
But if you can find a good used SP3 on up you could make for a far more SANE live vst based rig.  It's touchscreen and very portable.

You will have to streamline the Surface/PC (Win10 here) for best performance, but after doing so either with an audio interface or using ASIO4ALL it works well.

Or build a mini-pc (or NUC), which offers more power then Surface based but then that also requires some sort of screen, mouse/keybd to function and operate...kinda defeating the ease and less load.  Or the usual laptop route (not cheap for the power ya need).

Then again I also still bring out the SM Pro Audio VMachine every so often (very limited to small 32bit vsts but very portable and ez).

Or for even faster and lighter loads with decent sounds - an all-in-one like the Roland VR-09, their affordable answer to the Nord electro (or other VR series on up) is loaded with a lot of useable sounds. Slip it in a backpack style soft case and make things a helluva lot easier (and faster as it's sounds and control are immediate, whereas calling up VSTs worth a spit on a computer can come with loading pauses.  For this reason I still think hardware perf keyboards are still preferred).
The VR-09 is a synth keybed but at 12lbs of decent sounds that can be overlooked, it's perfect for those get in and out casuals/covers/etc.  Great sounding synths, clavs, leads, pads, strings and e pianos, fairly decent organ that approx nobody will bitch about, usable ac pianos (the weakest section - all on a single 61note, 12lb board.  That's about as easy as it can get right now).
* I usually do not recommend Roland products often but this VR-09 for gigs gets an exception. 

GL

 

[funkyhammond]

44 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

The flip side of that is, it's never going to be quite as rock stable or "finely tuned" as a non-VST system (or as fast booting as the quicker booting boards). Because it's still Windows. 

 

Yes, but I was responding to your statement about you not seeing the point compared to using a controller paired with a Surface Pro or similar. Your arguments here hold true with that setup as well.

 

44 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Apple's not going to do it, so it won't be Mac-based. Muse tried really hard to get Linux to work seamlessly with VSTs, and there were still all kinds of caveats. The only platform that's viable for full VST support and licensable OS is Windows.

 

If it had to be Windows, perhaps there would be a way to use an embedded version of Windows (or whatever it is these days) or some other customizations open to developers. But there are lots of different ways to customize Linux. I just did a search and it seems that there is a solution for getting Windows VSTs working in Linux: https://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?t=22072

For a general Linux user, this may be a hassle, but it wouldn't be a hassle for developers. I'm not familiar with Muse, I've only heard of it. Perhaps things have improved since then.

 

44 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

And as long as you're going to leave the system open to letting people install whatever VSTs they want on it (and you'd have to, or there's no point), you're going to have the periodic headaches that come with Windows.

 

I don't see this as a Windows-specific problem. One of the issues that came to my mind right away was the fact that you don't know what VSTs people will install and can't predict how a VST might interact with other running VSTs or with the OS. People put up with the occasional software misbehaving on a general computer. People really don't put up much with software misbehaving on dedicated hardware.

 

It's a tough one. Maybe the manufacturer of such a keyboard would test VSTs (starting with the most popular ones that would most likely be used for a stage keyboard) to work out any wrinkles and even work with the VST makers. Those VSTs could be "certified" to work with the keyboard. It may even result in better coded VSTs in the future that would run better under any OS. I'm sure that would depend on how popular the keyboard would become. I know, lots of hurdles. Just speculating possibilities. 

 

44 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

I think the point remains that Windows VST systems are for the somewhat tech-savvy and committed, and you don't get around that by putting the computer inside instead of outside the chassis.

 

Oh, you can get around a lot of things by doing that, especially if there are options open to developers for customizing the OS or using an embedded version, etc. Anyway, Linux may actually already be an option. And you never know what some clever developers may come up with for customizing Linux. Again, just speculating. 

[MathOfInsects]

There's always a difference between obstacles and considerations. I think @AnotherScott has raised some considerations, but perhaps framed them more as obstacles. At any rate, an OS developed specifically for this purpose would address exactly these concerns. I agree that latency or buffering would not be tolerated in a keyboard the way they might on a computer--even a computer being controlled by a keyboard, so that would be the first priority. And perhaps the board would release first with proprietary VST's and see if there's a market, after which other VST-makers would adapt their sounds for the embedded OS as a matter of course. The point is, in 2022, it might be time to (re)consider this concept again.

[funkyhammond]

On 3/31/2022 at 12:09 PM, Delaware Dave said:

I liked the idea of the JamKey which was a dual manual controller, one 61 keys and synth action and one 73 keys and more of a piano type action. https://reverb.com/item/43887786-orla-jamkey 

I've often wondered about a keyboard like that so that you had the manuals close for proper organ playing. I personally think they missed the mark by splitting the controls like that. Who wants drawbars (or almost anything) on the far right? I'd have all the controls on the left half and have the right half be all flat. It still would be fine for putting a laptop slightly to the right. And I would have the pitch bend and mod wheel to the left of the upper manual where there is all that space. If the lower manual was semi-weighted, the whole thing should not be too heavy. And there are light hammer action keybeds now, so maybe that would be an option that wouldn't add too much weight today.

[AnotherScott]

9 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

 

Yes, but I was responding to your statement about you not seeing the point compared to using a controller paired with a Surface Pro or similar. Your arguments here hold true with that setup as well.

 

Ah I see. I guess I'm just skeptical that an "in-board" Windows computer can be much more "finely tuned for audio performance and fast bootups" by the factory that what can be done in a traditional external Windows machine, especially if your standard of comparison is what is available to us in non-VST systems. But I see where you were going with this:

 

9 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

If it had to be Windows, perhaps there would be a way to use an embedded version of Windows (or whatever it is these days) or some other customizations open to developers.

 

There's a kind of conceptual inherent contradiction between a closed, embedded system designed to do one thing, and a system you can add third-party software to and customize/configure as desired. That said, there actually was a keyboard with embedded Windows XP that ran VSTs... https://www.crumar.it/?a=showproduct&b=3 

 

Some interesting info on Windows embedded systems at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_IoT

 

9 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

But there are lots of different ways to customize Linux. I just did a search and it seems that there is a solution for getting Windows VSTs working in Linux: https://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?t=22072

For a general Linux user, this may be a hassle, but it wouldn't be a hassle for developers. I'm not familiar with Muse, I've only heard of it. Perhaps things have improved since then.

 

WINE (discussed at that link) is what Muse used as well.

 

9 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

t's a tough one. Maybe the manufacturer of such a keyboard would test VSTs (starting with the most popular ones that would most likely be used for a stage keyboard) to work out any wrinkles and even work with the VST makers. Those VSTs could be "certified" to work with the keyboard.

 

Yes, I think that was kinda Muse's approach, too.

 

3 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

an OS developed specifically for this purpose would address exactly these concerns.

 

But that's the thing... VSTs are written for Mac and Windows. Steinberg owns the VST technology and owns the development platform, and it is Mac and Windows only. There's no such thing as another OS that can natively run a VST, nor can one be invented, unless it emulates Mac or Windows. Unless Steinberg deems otherwise, anyway.  (Again, Linux does it via WINE, a Windows emulator.)

 

For sampled instruments, there is already an open cross-platform standard, soundfont, and there are keyboards you can load them into. Dexibell does a particularly nice job at it, and it is indeed a nice feature. But of course, VSTs have significant benefits, including huge sophisticated sample sets (which wouldn't fit into a Dexibell anyway), and not being limited to sample playback (e.g. all the VA synth and clonewheel VSTs).

 

[MathOfInsects]

These are considerations, not obstacles. You’re right to raise them. But their existence is only logistical—it’s just a snapshot of how things stand now. That doesn’t mean it can’t be solved or look different in the future. 

[funkyhammond]

24 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

WINE (discussed at that link) is what Muse used as well.

 

The link topic is about the Carla VST wrapper. WINE is just part of the solution. The thread also discusses Linvst. These are currently developed software. Things are changing. 

[AnotherScott]

6 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

 

The link topic is about the Carla VST wrapper. WINE is just part of the solution. The thread also discusses Linvst. These are currently developed software. Things are changing. 

 

As I understand it, Carla and Linvst are open source attempts to do the same thing Muse did (create a reasonably usable VST emulation system that runs under Linux via the WINE Windows emulator). I think maybe things are changing here only to the extent that the open source community is trying to restore the functionality that disappeared when Muse products went out of production. IOW, I'm not sure I see advances here... I see an attempt to get back to where we were in 2016 or thereabouts, when Muse ceased production. (I admit this isn't a topic I know much about, though.)

[funkyhammond]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

As I understand it, Carla and Linvst are open source attempts to do the same thing Muse did (create a reasonably usable VST emulation system that runs under Linux via the WINE Windows emulator). I think maybe things are changing here only to the extent that the open source community is trying to restore the functionality that disappeared when Muse products went out of production. IOW, I'm not sure I see advances here... I see an attempt to get back to where we were in 2016 or thereabouts, when Muse ceased production. (I admit this isn't a topic I know much about, though.)

 

Interesting thread about Muse and maybe why it didn't succeed: https://gearspace.com/board/music-computers/1138137-did-muse-research-go-out-business.html

 

Edit: The posts towards the end, especially the last one, are the most interesting and many of those issues would also apply to a company trying to develop a stage keyboard that could run any VSTs.

[confidence]

I had a PC-based rig back in the day when it was uncommon. It never fell over in a performance (did once in an audition, which was a bummer). But for me, the problem was the amount of time and hassle it took to keep it from doing that, and the constant gnawing sense of insecurity that it might, that detracted from my focus and enjoyment of playing.

 

If I were to do it again, it would be as an add-on rather than a replacement. One board with decent action and sounds for security, and MIDI out to a laptop where you can go nuts: set up anything your heart desires, because if it fails (or you just get bored of setting it up), you've still got options.

 

In fact given that you need at least a controller board to play your laptop, I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't do this. All it costs is the difference in weight between a controller and a board with sounds, and while that may be considerable with a Fantom, it's much less so with a Kurzweil PC4 or similar. Then you can judge for yourself what role the keyboard plays - whether most of the bread and butter sounds, or only there as a backup. You can even decide this according to the requirements of different gigs, how important absolute security is etc.

 

Life's too short to give yourself stress you don't need.

[Aynsley Green]

On 4/5/2022 at 7:03 AM, confidence said:

I had a PC-based rig back in the day when it was uncommon. It never fell over in a performance (did once in an audition, which was a bummer). But for me, the problem was the amount of time and hassle it took to keep it from doing that, and the constant gnawing sense of insecurity that it might, that detracted from my focus and enjoyment of playing.

 

If I were to do it again, it would be as an add-on rather than a replacement. One board with decent action and sounds for security, and MIDI out to a laptop where you can go nuts: set up anything your heart desires, because if it fails (or you just get bored of setting it up), you've still got options.

 

In fact given that you need at least a controller board to play your laptop, I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't do this. All it costs is the difference in weight between a controller and a board with sounds, and while that may be considerable with a Fantom, it's much less so with a Kurzweil PC4 or similar. Then you can judge for yourself what role the keyboard plays - whether most of the bread and butter sounds, or only there as a backup. You can even decide this according to the requirements of different gigs, how important absolute security is etc.

 

Life's too short to give yourself stress you don't need.

 

I must agree, worrying about your rig takes you out of the music, which is hard enough.
I will confess have used the laptop to run backing tracks and the like since I quit Mainstage, but that's less of a worry given the CPU load is practically nil. It's when you start running more than one plugin at a time is when it all starts to fall apart (also temperature is a big one - gigs in direct sunlight will cause your Mac to overheat, I guarantee it).

 

A rig like a Fantom-06 (with its Mainstage integration) + a laptop running just one major plugin like Keyscape would be a simple one-cable rig, and if the laptop shits the bed you'll still have the Fantom-06 piano sounds able to be thrown on in 2 seconds. Keyscape is wonderful, but it's still CPU heavy enough to cause the rig to wobble a bit.

[Stokely]

Confidence in his post above (ironic and appropriate name, that!) really hits it on the head for me.  For my gigs, as a non-pro who often has to leave work (at home but still) in a hurry to get to a Friday gig with little time to set up, I want no-brainer.  Computers and even ipads are "brainers".  Not to say a keyboard can't screw up, they do and I've had it happen--in particular due to power issues at a couple venues, which opens that whole conversation about power conditioning or battery power...that's one area where the laptop would have an advantage.

I have enough to worry about with new songs and lyrics to remember, as well as dealing with (in some cases) less-than-ideal monitoring and other PA issues that might crop up.  Recently it's been inclement weather as we've had a few outdoor shows that got cancelled last minute or were on the verge...have to be ready with your tarps and hatches battened.  These are gigs where I bring one keyboard and little else to make it easier to get out of harms way.

At home, I have the time as a hobbyist to work through any hassles I have with the computer, and so can enjoy the convenience of vsts to go with their increasing quality!  And there's nothing to easily knock over since my laptop is closed and flat on my desk, though our new kitten sure makes a go of it....

Still I definitely enjoy reading about the VST rigs because I do own a lot of nice ones, and who knows might try it again at some point.

 

[Noah DC]

I gigged for several years with a used $200 Surface Pro 2 (ie earlier model than the OP suggests) and a Komplete Audio interface - never had a single issue running Pianoteq and Wurlie. Now that some boards have built-in interfaces requiring just one cable, my take is that there really isn’t any reasonable grounds to call an iPad or tablet rig any more complicated than, say, one of the hardware modules that are so popular around here. It’s a no brainer in the most basic sense. But, as always, to each their own.

[Aynsley Green]

6 hours ago, Noah DC said:

I gigged for several years with a used $200 Surface Pro 2 (ie earlier model than the OP suggests) and a Komplete Audio interface - never had a single issue running Pianoteq and Wurlie. Now that some boards have built-in interfaces requiring just one cable, my take is that there really isn’t any reasonable grounds to call an iPad or tablet rig any more complicated than, say, one of the hardware modules that are so popular around here. It’s a no brainer in the most basic sense. But, as always, to each their own.

 

iPad probably makes things more straightforward, given the OS is more stripped down etc. Actually integrating it into a rig with seamless patch changes, volume control, CC messages would not be so straightforward, I would think. 

 

Anyone gone the 'iPad route'?

[AnotherScott]

6 hours ago, Noah DC said:

I gigged for several years with a used $200 Surface Pro 2 (ie earlier model than the OP suggests) and a Komplete Audio interface - never had a single issue running Pianoteq and Wurlie. Now that some boards have built-in interfaces requiring just one cable, my take is that there really isn’t any reasonable grounds to call an iPad or tablet rig any more complicated than, say, one of the hardware modules that are so popular around here. It’s a no brainer in the most basic sense. But, as always, to each their own.

I think you touched on what could be an important differentiation between the hardware and software approaches. As a rule, hardware simply won't let you do anything that won't work or will bring a system to it's knees. All you ran on the PC was Pianoteq and a Wurlie, so the workload was relatively light. But there's no mechanism stopping you from taking the computer beyond what it can comfortably, reliably do. If you don't push the PC too far, you maximize stability... but there's no clear indication of how close or far you are from that line. All the capabilities available could tempt people to do things they wouldn't even be able to attempt on their hardware boards, but, as the saying goes, the PCs can give you enough rope to hang yourself.

[ABECK]

Finally made my decision to stick with hardware.  Ordered a K2700.  I've been very impressed with how the KB3 has progressed and the EPs and Pianos should do nicely for my gigs.  (I'm curious to try the Ventilator on a sub out routed to the inputs on the K2700.) 

Yes, on the heavy side, but ultimately the additional features and storage over the PC4 tipped the scales.  Very excited to dig in and start building out some of my typical go-to multis.  (just gotta wait till they are back in stock!)