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Another go with a new all-in one board, or transition to a laptop rig thread.....


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10 minutes ago, Stokely said:

Once I sell my behringer monitor mixer I'll think about putting that money toward a Lester K or ventilator if I feel the need.  

My Vent is my safety net for when I can't bring the DMC/Gemini.  For non-organ heavy gigs, it is the perfect way to make rompler or lackluster clonewheel engines way more usable.  That and a good Radial DI are 2 things I always have in my gig bag.

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1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

But to the extent that someone goes with two boards because they can't get all the sounds and functions they want in a single board, yes, a computer does increase your ability to get maximum sound and functionality out of a single board. But to use your example, I just don't know how happy I'd be playing an entire gig (including piano parts) on a single 10-lb keyboard.

Agreed on all points you raise (not just what I quoted), as I said in my post above, "everyone is different and ultimately you do what you need to be happy playing."

 

I'm weird because I do very little pure "synth" playing on my 10-kb keyboard - it's 90% piano! I've been doing it a very long time and would probably have a harder time playing piano parts on a weighted-action controller these days. And I remember only one gig in the last 15 -20 years where the music required me to have two keyboards for quick access to different sounds without the restrictions of a single split keyboard.

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On 3/31/2022 at 11:40 AM, ABECK said:

I typically play classic rock gigs, where I cover a variety of parts, including the usual suspects (Hammond, clav, EP) and occasionally strings, horns, synth leads.

Not the question you asked, but personally, if sticking with hardware, I might also look at some alternatives to the Fantom-08, for those sounds in a lightweight hammer action board. Have you looked at Kurzweil PC4 or Yamaha YC73? 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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This thread is timely for me as I'm in the midst of converting back to a laptop based rig. I've been using a Kronos LS for 3 or 4 years. It's done everything well and really is a fine board. And yup, less to schlep, less to go wrong. But at the end of the day, my vst's just sound better. Way better. We'll ll see if I feel it's worth it after festival season comes to end... 

Custom Music, Audio Post Production, Location Audio

www.gmma.biz

https://www.facebook.com/gmmamusic/

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Dumb but honest question: why not just make a $2.5k controller that's essentially just the chassis and monitor for an updatable hard-drive that can run VSTs? Internalize the interface so no worries about input devices, give the thing a nice big touch screen, maybe a track-pad (Touch OSC right on my controller? Hell yeah)--just make the "body" of a laptop be a nice controller and charge the price we're all happily paying for that laptop and/or keyboard anyway?
 

And if you say "There's no way that could be done for under $4k"...OK, so do it for $4k. Why in 2022 are we still talking about "great keyboard with mediocre sounds vs. great sounds with mediocre keyboard" as our options? Just put the same processor and OS inside the keyboard and we get both.

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

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I beg you, do not go 'the laptop route'. It will cause you nothing but pain. Just the other night I saw a gig where the keyboard player's laptop-rig shit the bed in the middle of 'Africa' - disaster. And my heart sank - the poor kid, misled just as I was, into thinking the laptop-rig was a safe to use on stage for anything complicated. The final straw for me years ago was when a similar thing happened to me on live television - the closest I've ever come to having a heart attack. And yes, this was with a top-of-the-line Macbook Pro, a posh RME interface, Mainstage, and a dedicated Mac OS partition dialled in exclusively for audio work. $6000+ of gear and plugins, and probably hundreds hours tweaking it and programming it, and the rig still didn't fucking work. Never again.


Yeah, VSTs can sound better (debateable, these days), but they are fundamentally not a reliable gigging platform. Too many moving parts.
I would consider it a professionalism thing, you can't have your sounds freak out mid-song any more than you can play the wrong chords, mess up an ending, show up late, or get drunk on the gig.

Get a Fantom or a Kronos if you need that kind of firepower. Keep your rig and your life simple.

Aynsley Green Trio - Caravan

Upper: Sequential OB6 or Roland Fantom 06

Lower: Nord Stage 4 Compact or Yamaha YC88

Sometimes: Hammond SK2, Roland System 8, Roland SH2, Roland SE-02, Roland JX-08, Korg Prologue 16

 

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11 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

Dumb but honest question: why not just make a $2.5k controller that's essentially just the chassis and monitor for an updatable hard-drive that can run VSTs?

Not a dumb question. Someone did try that a few years back... Maybe 10 years ago? Can't remember the name. They had a few big names using their keyboard but for whatever reason it never quite took off. 

Custom Music, Audio Post Production, Location Audio

www.gmma.biz

https://www.facebook.com/gmmamusic/

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3 minutes ago, mcgoo said:

Not a dumb question. Someone did try that a few years back... Maybe 10 years ago? Can't remember the name. They had a few big names using their keyboard but for whatever reason it never quite took off. 

 

Are you talking about the Muse Receptor?
I notice Dennis Hamm (of Thundercat, Knower, Allan Holdsworth) was repping them back in the day, but nowadays he only uses Yamaha gear - I think that speaks for itself.

Aynsley Green Trio - Caravan

Upper: Sequential OB6 or Roland Fantom 06

Lower: Nord Stage 4 Compact or Yamaha YC88

Sometimes: Hammond SK2, Roland System 8, Roland SH2, Roland SE-02, Roland JX-08, Korg Prologue 16

 

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3 minutes ago, Aynsley Green said:

Get a Fantom or a Kronos if you need that kind of firepower. Keep your rig and your life simple.

Just make sure you get a route your power cord to make sure it doesn't get unplugged, otherwise it'll be a long few songs (especially on the Kronos) watching "Loading Samples" after a drunk patron inevitably trips on the cord right before your epic solo.

Instruments: Walters Grand Console Upright Piano circa 1950 something, Kurzweil PC4-88, my voice

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24 minutes ago, GotKeys said:

Just make sure you get a route your power cord to make sure it doesn't get unplugged, otherwise it'll be a long few songs (especially on the Kronos) watching "Loading Samples" after a drunk patron inevitably trips on the cord right before your epic solo.

 

True, but just wait until theMagSafe power connector on your Macbook Pro didn't quite seat properly and it turns out your laptop wasn't charging this whole time and powers down in the middle of the third song. Happened to me more than once.
I'd say one of the main selling points of the Yamaha YC is that it boots up in 3 seconds!

Redundancy is important - having two keyboards is wise (he said, gigging with only one keyboard for the last 2 years, purely out of laziness).
Look at any of those big arena-tour bands, they have racks full of 'A', 'B' and even 'C' rigs, just in case.

Aynsley Green Trio - Caravan

Upper: Sequential OB6 or Roland Fantom 06

Lower: Nord Stage 4 Compact or Yamaha YC88

Sometimes: Hammond SK2, Roland System 8, Roland SH2, Roland SE-02, Roland JX-08, Korg Prologue 16

 

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31 minutes ago, mcgoo said:

No. That was a rack module. There was an actual keyboard designed to run VSTs several years ago. 

It was the Open Labs Neko and Meko. 😎

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PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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I don’t mean a keyboard that can play VST’s. I mean a computer whose chassis, rather than being a rectangular box, is a controller. Same screen, same processor, same storage, all the same brains pre-integrated into a controller body.

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

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54 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

I don’t mean a keyboard that can play VST’s. I mean a computer whose chassis, rather than being a rectangular box, is a controller. Same screen, same processor, same storage, all the same brains pre-integrated into a controller body.

 

 

Something like this, right?

 

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/open-labs-open-synth-neko-64

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8 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

I don’t mean a keyboard that can play VST’s. I mean a computer whose chassis, rather than being a rectangular box, is a controller. Same screen, same processor, same storage, all the same brains pre-integrated into a controller body.

Sounds suspiciously like a Korg Kronos😂

Instruments: Walters Grand Console Upright Piano circa 1950 something, Kurzweil PC4-88, my voice

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10 hours ago, Aynsley Green said:

I beg you, do not go 'the laptop route'

Sorry to hear of your bad luck, but not all of us have the same experiences. You say you had your incident "years ago" – that could be quite a few MacOS versions back, and/or older audio/midi drivers, etc. I've been using a laptop on all my gigs for the last 16 years, with a few bumps and one show-stopper (my MOTU audio interface lost its connection, I quickly reloaded my sw and switched to the headphone out).

 

I very much enjoy designing my custom rig that does exactly what I need, with the best sounds I can afford, and having it be super-portable. There are definitely tradeoffs vs hardware that have been mentioned (or, beaten to death!) here. I accept those. Maybe I've just been lucky.

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12 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

Hmmm. Conceptually, yes. But less Island of Dr Moreau. Just a keyboard whose brains are a computer. More like Westworld.
 

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

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A handy (handier than me) person could probably build a nice-looking chassis that takes care of one problem with laptops on stage:  where to put them, and all the peripheral stuff.  I do a fair number of gigs on stages so small I literally have to move my keyboards to get on/leave them, no room for a stand or table.  Have this chassis seat the laptop, an interface, optional DI, midi controller/keyboard and a power strip to plug things into.   Obviously with a laptop that opens this wouldn't make a very good bottom keyboard in a multi-keyboard rig though.  A hardware keyboard would be a backup for the computer sound and its sound could come out of the same outputs via a mixer or the DI, Key Largo comes to mind to do both jobs...    Basically all together it could look like a hardware keyboard, albeit probably a wooden one unless someone is good with sheet metal!  :D  Bonus points for a removable top so you don't need a case or bag.

The whole contraption would set up just like a hardware keyboard, plug in power and the Key Largo outputs to FOH and you should be ready (the laptop could already be on and asleep with mainstage loaded).   Or better yet, install a patch panel on the back for all connections, including power.

And while I think I'm just having fun thinking of it, my neighbor is a very good retired woodworker and he's offered to do a project for me free just to keep busy (though I'd pay him anyway)...hmmm....I've got an older macbook pro just sitting around and a key largo in my rig already.

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On 4/1/2022 at 12:00 PM, ABECK said:

My Vent is my safety net for when I can't bring the DMC/Gemini.  For non-organ heavy gigs, it is the perfect way to make rompler or lackluster clonewheel engines way more usable.  That and a good Radial DI are 2 things I always have in my gig bag.


I think I may go with the Lester K from Thomann, it's only 160 bucks.  Mini vent is more than double that.  While the slow leslie and general organ tone was fine at my gig Friday, the fast leslie was a mess.  The overdrive was...ok.   One thing I'll need to consider is reverb (which I don't tend to use a lot of anyway)...if it's on my patches then of course it will now be pre-leslie.   I was already considering turning off reverbs on all my patches simply because when I make Multis on the Kurzweil you can end up with a hodgepodge of different fx that are a pain to control in multi mode; if I turn them all off, then I can apply a light reverb from our main mixer and dial in to taste for the particular venue depending on how reverberant the place is.   Or of course I could add an fx pedal that could use my Key Largo's fx loop!  :)   A reverb/echo pedal with tap tempo could be a lot of fun....The Nux Atlantic is only 89 bucks from Thomann and that seems like a very good pedal.

Shipping is basically free because I'm also ordering a keyboard case.  I've noticed the shipping actually goes down a bit when adding items to my order, compared to shipping with the keyboard case alone (?)  Bottom line, when ordering from them, makes sense to do one order if you need multiple things rather than separate orders...

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1 hour ago, Stokely said:

A handy (handier than me) person could probably build a nice-looking chassis that takes care of one problem with laptops on stage:  where to put them

...

Have this chassis seat the laptop, an interface, optional DI, midi controller/keyboard and a power strip to plug things into.   Obviously with a laptop that opens this wouldn't make a very good bottom keyboard in a multi-keyboard rig though.

 

Currently, I think the best solution for these kinds of problems is to use something with a tablet form factor, like a Surface Pro. Lots of keyboards already have enough free space for one, and if not, there are good brackets that can often clamp on to your keyboard stand. Unfortunately, Apple continues to be resistant to a Mac tablet, so for gig use, Windows or iOS would be my choices for software instruments.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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The Open Labs Neko 64 was mentioned. With all the hardware improvements that have happened over the last 15 years, I'm surprised no one else has tried to come out with anything similar but as a convenient stage keyboard. Maybe a company like Studiologic or some startup company may try at some point, who knows. If enough musicians start using laptops or iPads live, it might get some people thinking.

 

If you had a stage keyboard that came in a few sizes (73 SW, 73 HA, 88 HA) with a large color touch screen, lots of assignable knobs and sliders, and was internally a computer for running downloadable VSTs (perhaps even having some basic sounds in ROM as backup), what would you guys think? What do you see as being potentially major issues? I can think of a few but I'm wondering what you guys think.

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10 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

f you had a stage keyboard that came in a few sizes (73 SW, 73 HA, 88 HA) with a large color touch screen, lots of assignable knobs and sliders, and was internally a computer for running downloadable VSTs (perhaps even having some basic sounds in ROM as backup), what would you guys think? What do you see as being potentially major issues? I can think of a few but I'm wondering what you guys think.

I'm not sure I see a reason to buy something like that compared to a board with lots of assignable knobs and sliders that simply had enough free space to conveniently place a Microsoft Surface Pro or similar running Gig Performer, Camelot Pro, whatever. What's the benefit of having the computer on the inside instead of sitting on top? I guess some wiring convenience. But I'd prefer to keep it separate. Two big advantages:

 

1) If I want to upgrade the performance in years to come, it's simpler to just buy a new tablet,

 

2) If I want to work on setting up sounds or what-not, I don't necessarily have to unpack and setup my gigging rig, I could plug the tablet into any little keyboard and do much of the same work at my desk.

 

Something I'm happy to see is boards where you can seamlessly mix and match internal and external sounds. The Fantom-0 and MODX are strong here. I've been meaning to see how close I can get to that on a PC4.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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24 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

“Why would my phone need to connect to the internet?? I have a computer for that!”

And if I never left the house, that would be 100% true!

 

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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19 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

I'm not sure I see a reason to buy something like that compared to a board with lots of assignable knobs and sliders that simply had enough free space to conveniently place a Microsoft Surface Pro or similar

 

Yup. I understand that the solution wouldn't be for everyone. But one reason was mentioned earlier in this thread: you don't have to worry about someone stealing your expensive laptop/tablet at a show while you're on a break (or you having to carry it around everywhere just to prevent that). Another reason would be that the computer hardware and OS could be finely tuned for audio performance and fast bootups. With a generic computer, you might have to do some research and work to make that happen. Some people don't want to have to get into those technical details or take the time.

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Also, I worry a bit about just how much support Apple will maintain for music apps.   We had discussions about the usb c connection on the newer ipads along those lines...and of course they want to remove headphone jacks whenever they can.    We are a tiny niche part of their business I'd guess, so I doubt they are making decisions with us in mind.   I don't consider it likely things will stop working any time soon, but as with computers, it can be more work to use multi-purpose machines for music vs machines built for the purpose.

No doubt I prefer a tablet form factor...I simply velcro mine to my MODX and it isn't going anywhere.   However, I have had a few glitches at gigs where midi or audio have simply stopped working.  That, and a nasty popup asking if I wanted to upgrade my OS to use my peripheral...er, no, I want you to use the peripheral just like you used it earlier that day when I was doing some programming on my rig.   I've never had that pop up since, which leaves me both relieved and wondering just what prompted it in the first place.

I do have a ton of good VSTs that I like, but best in class for organ is B-3X which I only have for ipad!   I wish they'd allow it to run on a phone, now you are really talking easy to incorporate into the rig (if harder to actually read and use if you need to!)

But as I mentioned I'm on a simplify kick and did the last gig with one keyboard (backup MODX in my car), no ipad sounds (though it was there for my lyrics and my mixer app).  I'm sure the worm will turn again and I'll want multiple keyboards with the ipad or maybe a laptop :)

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Software licensing schemes come to mind on this topic.  Out and about we need to be able to have the machine licensed or a dongle.  Software  that checks for license on the internet is not ideal.  Especially if it does so frequently or always.  I’m not familiar with any iOS music apps that work this way. 

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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6 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Hmmm. Conceptually, yes. But less Island of Dr Moreau. Just a keyboard whose brains are a computer. More like Westworld.
 

 

Westworld? Are you sure? Just don't give it Bulk Apperception. I battle enough with my technology as it is.

 

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7 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

Another reason would be that the computer hardware and OS could be finely tuned for audio performance and fast bootups. With a generic computer, you might have to do some research and work to make that happen. Some people don't want to have to get into those technical details or take the time.

The flip side of that is, it's never going to be quite as rock stable or "finely tuned" as a non-VST system (or as fast booting as the quicker booting boards). Because it's still Windows. 

 

Apple's not going to do it, so it won't be Mac-based. Muse tried really hard to get Linux to work seamlessly with VSTs, and there were still all kinds of caveats. The only platform that's viable for full VST support and licensable OS is Windows. And as long as you're going to leave the system open to letting people install whatever VSTs they want on it (and you'd have to, or there's no point), you're going to have the periodic headaches that come with Windows. I think the best way to use Windows is, once you get it doing what you want, don't change anything (or be prepared to put in some optimization time if you do). And that includes actual Windows updates, which themselves, are alway a balance between staying current and hoping nothing messes up.

 

Someone might think I'm over-stating the issues a bit, or under-stating them, but regardless, I think the point remains that Windows VST systems are for the somewhat tech-savvy and committed, and you don't get around that by putting the computer inside instead of outside the chassis. So I'm skeptical of this as a viable mainstream approach. I'm all for controllers that are more computer-friendly in the way they can integrate VSTs into live performance... but I'm not looking for the keyboard/controller manufacturer to supply the computer.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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