Building a two board rig, what is a good pairing?

[kaptainkeys]

As the title suggests, I'm looking to put together a two board rig, somewhere around the $1500 USD mark, as I am starting to put myself out there as a gigging keyboardist in my area.  I'm open to buying used, and need a rig that is fairly lightweight (ideally no boards above the 50 lb mark, before a case), and covers APs, EPs, some clavs, decent hammonds with a good Leslie effect (not necessarily an organ engine, good rompler organs are ok with me), assorted brass and strings, and a wide array of synth sounds.  Ideally, I'd like to have a weighted 88 key board on the bottom and something 61 or 76 up top, and I'd like for both boards to have some kind of master controller functionality.  If this is to much of an ask at this price, let me know, and I look forward to your suggestions.

 

-GotKeys

[ElmerJFudd]

From your description, bread and butter sounds seem to cover it - so maybe you can make this $1500 price mark.  

 

Roland VR-09 on top. 61 synth keys, 12lbs 3oz

or Roland DS61, 11lbs 12oz.  

Kawai ES-110 on the bottom. 88 Weighted action, 26.5lbs 

 

Don’t forget you’re going to need bags, amplification, and a two tier stand. 

[AnotherScott]

Bottom:

Casio PX-5S: 24 lbs, nice action, above average pianos/EPs at its price, good MIDI functionality, apart from not having an expression pedal jack.

 

Top:

Roland VR-09, as Elmer said: 12 lbs, good for organ/brass/strings/synth. It helps if you have an iPad for synth editing, if need be. 

The DS61 alternative is somewhat better on the MIDI front (except maybe for sending Program Changes, not sure about that), and has better patch navigation, on-board editing, better split/layer functions, I'd say better strings/brass (with the free orchestral expansion), but the organ and synth are weaker. I know you said rompler organs are okay, but you are concerned with the Leslie effect, and none of the rompler organ boards have Leslie effects that are as good as those in the boards with organ engines. But maybe it will be "good enough." Though since we're looking at used stuff, I think you might find a Yamaha MOXF6 or MOX6 at around the same price as a DS61. Those Yamahas have pretty much the same pros and cons vis-a-vis the VR09 as the DS61 does, but they are much better from a MIDI perspective, and I think generally better sounding and more flexible.

 

These boards have all been around long enough that I think you're reasonably likely to be able to find used ones, to get to roughly your budget. (There's also a DS76, which would give you the advantage of more keys, an option those Yamahas don't give you, but that's going to be pricier, and it hasn't been around as long as the others, either.)

[Outkaster]

You need to spend a little more to get something decent.

[kaptainkeys]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

Bottom:

Casio PX-5S: 24 lbs, nice action, above average pianos/EPs at its price, good MIDI functionality, apart from not having an expression pedal jack.

 

Top:

Roland VR-09, as Elmer said: 12 lbs, good for organ/brass/strings/synth. It helps if you have an iPad for synth editing, if need be. 

The DS61 alternative is somewhat better on the MIDI front (except maybe for sending Program Changes, not sure about that), and has better patch navigation, on-board editing, better split/layer functions, I'd say better strings/brass (with the free orchestral expansion), but the organ and synth are weaker. I know you said rompler organs are okay, but you are concerned with the Leslie effect, and none of the rompler organ boards have Leslie effects that are as good as those in the boards with organ engines. But maybe it will be "good enough." Though since we're looking at used stuff, I think you might find a Yamaha MOXF6 or MOX6 at around the same price as a DS61. Those Yamahas have pretty much the same pros and cons vis-a-vis the VR09 as the DS61 does, but they are much better from a MIDI perspective, and I think generally better sounding and more flexible.

 

These boards have all been around long enough that I think you're reasonably likely to be able to find used ones, to get to roughly your budget. (There's also a DS76, which would give you the advantage of more keys, an option those Yamahas don't give you, but that's going to be pricier, and it hasn't been around as long as the others, either.)

In terms of the top board, another board that would fit my criteria is a 61 key Kurzweil PC3 (PC361, LE6, K6, A6).  Has a decent synth section, a dedicated organ engine with a decent leslie sim, and is fairly lightweight.

[cphollis]

If the $1500 is a hard one, then I would agree with AnotherScott.  But I also would agree with Outkaster.  As the price point goes up you get better Hammonds and leslie emulations, better AP experience, etc. -- not to mention better versions of other bread and butter sounds, etc. 

 

The other budget route that many are exploring -- with some success -- is a used iPad with a decent midi keyboard.   You can get way more sonic bang for your buck if you're willing to live within its constraints.  I would argue the Hammond emulations there are among the best, with APs a struggle for some.  $5.99 gets you a killer classic synth emulation with a bunch of presets, for example -- and they all sound awesome.  Putting all those sounds together in a gig context takes a bit of work, as you're not just pushing the "Cool Piano" button anymore.

 

Just as an exercise, I put together a bucket of usable gig sounds (nothing fancy) for less that $500 of software + keyboard + used iPad + other stuff.  The expensive bit was the B3X emulation which I am intent on finding a way to gig with next season, as I really like the sounds.

 

EDIT: I should mention there is someone around here who shows up to very casual gigs with a small midi keyboard and an iPhone, then plugs it into the shared PA.  He also scrounged a chair and a table that was there, so no stand or seat.  At the end of the gig, he puts the pieces in his pocket, tucks the dinky keyboard under his arm and pedals off into the night.  It gave me something to think about.

[Sean M. H.]

If you go new, I don't think you'll do much better than the suggestions the guys have already made (and even those combinations probably end up over budget)...but obviously going used would open up a few more options.  Maybe a used Yamaha MOXF8 down bottom?  Solid all around board--though the screen/interface certainly feels dated...Used Korg Krome up top?  Again, even that combination might push your budget by a couple hundred bucks though. 

 

I'd also keep an eye on the Roland FA range in the coming weeks.  The release of the Fantom-0 range will likely result in the FA range either being pushed to clearance/closeout prices, or--at the very least--people like myself (possibly) moving FAs on the used market to check out the Fantoms...FA-07s are currently selling for 1000-1200 used.  I don't think it would be too crazy to see those prices drop a bit in the near term?  A $900 FA-07 up top or say a $1000 FA-08 on the bottom would be a great start to a versatile, affordable 2-board rig (excluding the FA-06 because some say the action is unusable - YMMV).  All just speculation on my part of course, but something to keep in mind.

[Mighty Motif Max]

I’ll throw something else in here. Provided you’re comfortable using midi to move sounds around and don’t require lots of controllers on the top board, how about a used FA-08 or MOXF8 with a used Hammond XK1c up top? That would give you great synths and organs with solid other sounds.

 

Alternatively a Kross 2 61 up top if you can get on with the keybed feel. 
 

Or a used Kurzweil SP6 + Yamaha MX61 would be another solid combination IMO. 

[kaptainkeys]

6 hours ago, Sean M. H. said:

A $900 FA-07 up top

I looked into putting an FA up top, but the prices right now are just too high, though I hadn't considered waiting until the new boards came out.

[kaptainkeys]

4 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

I’ll throw something else in here. Provided you’re comfortable using midi to move sounds around and don’t require lots of controllers on the top board, how about a used FA-08 or MOXF8 with a used Hammond XK1c up top? That would give you great synths and organs with solid other sounds.

I had considered doing that but have yet to find an affordable hammond clone.  A used MOXF8 or FA08 is going for just above $1000, so even if I haggled, I still only have like $500 to buy a hammond, and I've yet to see an XK1c or SK1 for that price, or really any hammond board.

[synthizen2]

I use a MOX8 on the bottom, cost me about $800 used. It's essentially the same as MOXF8 except 64 notes polyphony (instead of 128) and you can't import sounds. Otherwise the same board.

 

When my PC3 was in repair for a few months, I used a controller on top and used the MOX8 for ALL of my sounds, including the organ. While the Yamaha B3 "rompler" sound isn't as good as the modeled KB3 engine in the Kurzweil, it was passable enough for gigs (pretty good, in fact... just a somewhat poor leslie simulation).

 

If you can pair that MOX8 with a cheap controller board on top, that'll get you through.

 

[kaptainkeys]

55 minutes ago, synthizen2 said:

I use a MOX8 on the bottom, cost me about $800 used. It's essentially the same as MOXF8 except 64 notes polyphony (instead of 128) and you can't import sounds. Otherwise the same board.

Unfortunately, inflation and supply chain have driven up the used prices of the MOX8/MOXF8, the going rate in reverb is around $1000 for both.  Having the ability to import user sounds and more polyphony is something I would like, but not 100%.

55 minutes ago, synthizen2 said:

When my PC3 was in repair for a few months, I used a controller on top and used the MOX8 for ALL of my sounds, including the organ. While the Yamaha B3 "rompler" sound isn't as good as the modeled KB3 engine in the Kurzweil, it was passable enough for gigs (pretty good, in fact... just a somewhat poor leslie simulation).

Certainly good to know that if necessary, I could get by using just the Yamaha on a gig if I only need organs for one or two songs.

 

-GotKeys

[RABid]

I’m a strong proponent of a dual Rompler setup. That way if one keyboard goes out you can get through the gig.

[kaptainkeys]

16 minutes ago, RABid said:

I’m a strong proponent of a dual Rompler setup. That way if one keyboard goes out you can get through the gig.

That's why I'm looking at building my rig around a PX5S and PC3LE6, both have good APs, EPs, brass, strings, and synths.  If one stops working, or if I only want to bring one board, I can still get through the gig.  The only downside is that the organs in the PX5S are quite subpar, but are probably decent enough to make it through a song or two if I'm just playing chords, though I wouldn't use it for searing Jon Lord solo.

[Mighty Motif Max]

8 minutes ago, GotKeys said:

That's why I'm looking at building my rig around a PX5S and PC3LE6, both have good APs, EPs, brass, strings, and synths.  If one stops working, or if I only want to bring one board, I can still get through the gig.  The only downside is that the organs in the PX5S are quite subpar, but are probably decent enough to make it through a song or two if I'm just playing chords, though I wouldn't use it for searing Jon Lord solo.

Maybe consider swapping the PX5S for a Yamaha MX88 or Roland Juno DS88?

[kaptainkeys]

13 minutes ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

Maybe consider swapping the PX5S for a Yamaha MX88 or Roland Juno DS88?

Any particular reason why?  The PX5S is a better master controller than the MX, and the DS has no way to set up zones to control external gear.

[synthizen2]

23 minutes ago, GotKeys said:

That's why I'm looking at building my rig around a PX5S and PC3LE6, both have good APs, EPs, brass, strings, and synths.  If one stops working, or if I only want to bring one board, I can still get through the gig.

 

But the idea of having a controller board as 2nd tier is that you can play the organ parts from a non-weighted board, and play both piano and organ at the same time without needing a keyboard split.

 

On the MOX8, I put it into Song/Mix mode (instead of Program or Performance mode), and that way I can MIDI up a controller to the MOX8 and play the organ parts on MIDI channel 2 using the controller.

[Mighty Motif Max]

27 minutes ago, GotKeys said:

Any particular reason why?  The PX5S is a better master controller than the MX, and the DS has no way to set up zones to control external gear.

For the MX, much better organs, IMO better EP's and pianos, better acoustic instruments, better brass, and (IMO) a significantly better keybed. But yes, it does lose out on master control capabilities. I'd think you could use the PC3LE as your master controller if needed. Also you should be able to set up all your zones etc on the PC3LE so you don't need advanced capabilities on the MX in that scenario.

 

The Juno suggestion is because I've generally found that Roland and Kurzweil soundsets complement each other well. The Juno would be strongest of any of the boards discussed in the synth side of things IMO.

[allan_evett]

44 minutes ago, RABid said:

I’m a strong proponent of a dual Rompler setup. That way if one keyboard goes out you can get through the gig.

 

That does make sense, and could be pulled off for around $1500. 

 

I just checked out a couple of  Studiologic Numa Compact 2x demos. It's a worthwile contender for a bottom-tier stage piano+; lots of helpful ROMpler components, plus a basic drawbar organ engine included. You could combined a Numa Compact 2x with a Korg Kross 2, 61 and be just about at your $1500 budget goal.  The only disadvantages you might find are the key actions of both instruments, which are not premium quality. Some players find the 88-key 'lightly weighted' action of the NC 2x not to their liking; and the synth action of the Kross 2, 61 is similarly challenging for some. I sat in on a gig where the fellow keyboardist had a NC 2x, and was fine with it; but I'm pretty forgiving when it comes to actions.

 

Otherwise a Roland VR-09 would be a great choice, maybe paired above a Kawai ES-110, or Casio PX-360 for piano (or used PX-350, or better yet a used PX-5S).  The Casios would give you more ROMpler types of choices - especially the PX-5S. And the piano actions are a much more realistic step up from the Numa Compact 2x. 

 

[kaptainkeys]

27 minutes ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

For the MX, much better organs, IMO better EP's and pianos, better acoustic instruments, better brass, and (IMO) a significantly better keybed. But yes, it does lose out on master control capabilities. I'd think you could use the PC3LE as your master controller if needed. Also you should be able to set up all your zones etc on the PC3LE so you don't need advanced capabilities on the MX in that scenario.

 

The Juno suggestion is because I've generally found that Roland and Kurzweil soundsets complement each other well. The Juno would be strongest of any of the boards discussed in the synth side of things IMO.

On the MX88, is there a way to make zones to control external gear?  Like if I wanted to control a sound module or a patch from the Kurzweil I could do that?  Does the John Melas editor allow you to do this?  (I'm going to buy it if I get the MX because programming on the MX's tiny screen does not sound like fun)

[funkyhammond]

39 minutes ago, allan_evett said:

Some players find the 88-key 'lightly weighted' action of the NC 2x not to their liking

 

 

Just to be clear, the NC 2x is a spring semi-weighted action, not a hammer action. I'm looking to put together a very similar 2-board setup and I don't think it makes sense to go with semi-weighted keys with an 88-key bottom board.

 

Or am I wrong about this?

[AnotherScott]

13 hours ago, GotKeys said:

In terms of the top board, another board that would fit my criteria is a 61 key Kurzweil PC3 (PC361, LE6, K6, A6).  

Yes. Beats the Juno DS and (at least for the purposes at hand) the MOX/MOXF I mentioned. I'd say organ lags the VR09; and synth lags in terms of ease of use. But overall, Kurz is much more versatile. Good choice if you're okay with it being double+ the weight of those other options.

 

As for some of the other things brought up... If you're looking for other options in the lightweight hammer-action-board-with-sounds category that includes good MIDI zoning, in about the same price range as PX5S, the Korg Kross 88 could be a possibility, either generation. You lose the real-time knobs and sliders, but you get 16 zones (internal or external) vs. 4 internal + 4 external. You also get the expression pedal input, and monophonic synth options (instead of poly only). Though Casio wins on polyphyony and patch remain. Orchestral sounds are stronger on Korg.

 

For something cheaper than VR09 for organ and synth, the Casio XW-P1 could be a possibility, but probably harder to find. Organ is not as good, but not bad, provided you are looking for cleaner organ sounds, because the Casio overdrive is terrible. The nice thing about the Casio is that it's also a decent 4-zone MIDI controller. But nothing about it compares to the PC361.

[funkyhammond]

Here's something that doesn't always get mentioned when talking used gear. What about durability? I'm reading some things about the Casio PX-5S/PX-560 getting clacking keys after a few years of heavy use because of subpar felt and even sometimes developing side-to-side key movement. Any common issues reported over time on any of the other boards recommended? 

 

I've been able to find a Casio PX-5S used and new in my area but can't decide if I should go for it. It also lacks an expression pedal input if that's at all a concern. Maybe not for @GotKeys since the top board would be used for organ, but I am also sometimes going to have just a single hammer action board setup and it would be nice to have the expression pedal for one or two organ tunes in that situation. The PX-560 (same keybed as the PX-5S) has the expression pedal input but is a bit more expensive and maybe not quite as versatile as a MIDI controller as the PX-5S but still decent as far as I can tell. And it has a decent touch screen. I've managed to find a PX-560 in a local store to try out. The action is a light hammer action that feels good and is easy to play on but something about the velocity curve seemed a bit off with the APs. Putting the touch setting on "Heavy" helped a bit but not completely.

[AnotherScott]

28 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

I've been able to find a Casio PX-5S used and new in my area but can't decide if I should go for it....I've managed to find a PX-560 in a local store to try out. The action is a light hammer action that feels good and is easy to play on but something about the velocity curve seemed a bit off with the APs. 

If you get a chance to try the PX-5S, bring this alternate piano patch with you and load it from a USB stick... one of the things it did for me was improve the velocity connection. (Unfortunately, that piano patch cannot be loaded into the PX-560.)

[kaptainkeys]

35 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Korg Kross 88 could be a possibility, either generation. You lose the real-time knobs and sliders, but you get 16 zones (internal or external) vs. 4 internal + 4 external. You also get the expression pedal input, and monophonic synth options (instead of poly only). Though Casio wins on polyphyony and patch remain. Orchestral sounds are stronger on Korg.

The Kross has the ability to control external modules in Combi mode?  From reading the manual, it didn't seem that way.

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, GotKeys said:

The Kross has the ability to control external modules in Combi mode?  From reading the manual, it didn't seem that way.

Yes. Each Timbre (zone) can control either an internal or external sound. For external, you set it for EXT (or EX2 if you also have to send MSB/LSB bank change messages). Not immediately obvious... the way you send the "0 to 127" Program Change itself is by assigning the internal timbre that corresponds to that number (even though you won't be playing the internal sound). It's the kind of thing that only makes sense to a programmer...

[Shamanzarek]

I would second the Casio XW-P1 as an inexpensive top Keyboard that can cover a lot of ground. The tone wheel organ section is more adjustable than ROMpler organs and can do a couple things the much more expensive tone wheel simulators can't. It has a very full-featured programmable hex layer synth section. There is an assortment of other sounds like pianos, strings, brass, etc. The XW-P1 was discontinued but a used one might turn up with some searching. 

[allan_evett]

3 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

 

Just to be clear, the NC 2x is a spring semi-weighted action, not a hammer action. I'm looking to put together a very similar 2-board setup and I don't think it makes sense to go with semi-weighted keys with an 88-key bottom board.

 

Or am I wrong about this?

Not at all. The action does have 88 squared off plastic keys, shaped like those on a piano. But the response is spring-based. That's why I suggested alternatives, if the OP required a weighted, piano action.

[stoken6]

Suggestion: Kurzweil SP6 downstairs and a 61-key upstairs. Kurzweil's MIDI implementation means you can get separate sounds transmitted from the MIDI controller vs played locally.

 

Cheers, MIke.

[ElmerJFudd]

3 hours ago, Shamanzarek said:

I would second the Casio XW-P1 as an inexpensive top Keyboard that can cover a lot of ground. The tone wheel organ section is more adjustable than ROMpler organs and can do a couple things the much more expensive tone wheel simulators can't. It has a very full-featured programmable hex layer synth section. There is an assortment of other sounds like pianos, strings, brass, etc. The XW-P1 was discontinued but a used one might turn up with some searching. 

Hmmm. Has Casio discontinued this board and a few other models recently as well?