Top or bottom board - Kronos vs. Fantom

[Moonglow]

So here’s my situation. My current live rig is a Kronos 88 (bottom) with a Jupiter-80 (top). I have a Kronos 61 in my music room. I would like to replace the Jupiter-80 with a Fantom, but not sure whether to go with the Kronos 88 on the bottom and a Fantom 7 on top, or a Fantom 8 on the bottom and the Kronos 61 on top. 

 

I definitely want to use a weighted action as my bottom board, for playing piano.

 

I can program the Kronos in my sleep, so there’s a comfort level using the K88 as my main controller. However, I’ve heard the Fantom has controller functions comparable to the Kronos, and playing the Fantom 8’s V-Pianos directly from its own keybed is very appealing. 

 

I know the Fantom 8 is a beast in terms of size/weight, so I’m leaning towards keeping the K88 on the bottom and getting an F7 for the top, which isn’t too much difference in schleppage than my existing rig. But factoring size/weight out of the equation, which would you prefer?

 

Any other advantages using either board as the bottom 88 controller over the other?

 

Thanks to all in advance!

[jeffincltnc]

I'm not going to make this answer easier but I owned a Fantom 7 and exchanged it for a Fantom 8.  Everything you've said here is the dillema and I only use mine at home.   The top board I have over my Fantom 8 is the Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S61 MK2, and that's kind of the answer why I do this.

 

Both actions on the Fantom are terrific and you have a choice between an excellent piano action or an excellent synth action, so neither suck.  I was really happy with the Fantom 7 (and Jupiter X) actions and I will start with saying I prefer the Roland actions for BOTH piano and the flagship synths to Korg, although the aftertouch on the Fantoms isn't really good.  So maybe that is an advantage to Korg.

 

For me the PHA50 piano action with wood keys on the Fantom 8 is a piano players action.  If you have played an RD2000 you either like it or not, but it's up there for me.  I don't really care for the Korg RH3 actions, and never have, but I wouldn't kick a Kronos 88 out of bed for eating crackers either.

 

So, for a home studio, picture this -- for me - I have both the Fantom 8 and the Native Instruments integrated to my Mac laptop with Logic Pro X and Mainstage.  On the Fantom 8, the bottom keyboard gives me ability to control parameters of LPX and Mainstage within the touchscreen of the Fantom.  It's done well.   On the second tier, my Komplete Kontrol has the browser capabitilty for all of my NKS compatible plug ins, quick auditions of patches and parameters mapped consistently.   So, imagine my 2nd tier keyboard is Komplete Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, and a bunch of NKS Kontakt instruments.  And then I can play those through either the Fantom 8 and blend them with the internal sounds, or the synths and orchestral stuff through the Komplete Kontrol.  

 

Seems to work well for me, but I didn't answer your question either.

[AnotherScott]

A suggestion: As an experiment, try putting your Kronos 61 over your 88, to see how usable the screen is at the distance and angle it ends up at, to get an idea of what it would feel like playing/operating it over a Fantom 8.

[stoken6]

Is it valuable to have 76 vs 61 keys upstairs?

Do you have an action preference? (I like both the F76 and the K61 actions very much but would probably prefer the Fantom 8’s hammer action to Korg’s)

 

Cheers, Mike

[AnotherScott]

Yeah, a lot of this decision can come down to individual needs and individual preferences. I strongly prefer 7x over 61 keys up top, because I do a lot of LH bass, and I prefer to do it on the top board, but that's obviously not a factor for everyone. Similarly, I really dislike the action on the Kronos 88 (though I liked the RH3 on the SV1), and that's something people will have their own feelings about.

[Motif88]

Fantom 8 on the bottom…

[kaptainkeys]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Similarly, I really dislike the action on the Kronos 88 (though I liked the RH3 on the SV1), and that's something people will have their own feelings about.

Funny, I've played the M3 88 before and I have to say I don't mind it's RH3 keybed, even for organs, though it is quite a bit heavier than my upright piano

[kaptainkeys]

3 hours ago, Moonglow said:

So here’s my situation. My current live rig is a Kronos 88 (bottom) with a Jupiter-80 (top). I have a Kronos 61 in my music room. I would like to replace the Jupiter-80 with a Fantom, but not sure whether to go with the Kronos 88 on the bottom and a Fantom 7 on top, or a Fantom 8 on the bottom and the Kronos 61 on top. 

 

I definitely want to use a weighted action as my bottom board, for playing piano.

 

I can program the Kronos in my sleep, so there’s a comfort level using the K88 as my main controller. However, I’ve heard the Fantom has controller functions comparable to the Kronos, and playing the Fantom 8’s V-Pianos directly from its own keybed is very appealing. 

 

I know the Fantom 8 is a beast in terms of size/weight, so I’m leaning towards keeping the K88 on the bottom and getting an F7 for the top, which isn’t too much difference in schleppage than my existing rig. But factoring size/weight out of the equation, which would you prefer?

 

Any other advantages using either board as the bottom 88 controller over the other?

 

Thanks to all in advance!

My instinct would be to swap the Jup-80 for the Fantom, you'll have more key real estate plus you'll have less reprogramming to do in both the keyboards and in your head/fingers as to what controllers (knobs and sliders) and sounds are where, just my $0.02

[Mighty Motif Max]

My vote is the Kronos on the bottom, Fantom 7 up top (my variation of that rig is a PC4 on the bottom with a F7 up top). My opinion is that the Kronos is a better overall “primary” board still. Make sure to look through my commentary in the regular Fantom thread as well.

[ProfD]

I'm in the Fantom 7 over Kronos 88 camp. Just swapping out the Jupe.😎

[Moonglow]

21 hours ago, stoken6 said:

Is it valuable to have 76 vs 61 keys upstairs?

Do you have an action preference? (I like both the F76 and the K61 actions very much but would probably prefer the Fantom 8’s hammer action to Korg’s)

 

Cheers, Mike

I’ve been using my K88/JP80 rig for 10+ years (probably the longest I’ve used any single rig) so I’m presently accustomed to 76 keys on top. However, prior to this rig (i.e., the previous 30 years) it’s mostly been 61 keys on top, and while more keys is preferable, I don’t think I’d have too much difficulty readjusting to the downsize. Going with the K61 on top would be a trade off if I end up really liking the F8.

 

I like the F76 action, I found it very similar to the JP80. I’m good with the K88 action, but need to evaluate the piano playing experience of the F8. This may be the deciding factor.

[Moonglow]

21 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

A suggestion: As an experiment, try putting your Kronos 61 over your 88, to see how usable the screen is at the distance and angle it ends up at, to get an idea of what it would feel like playing/operating it over a Fantom 8.

Thanks, Scott. That was the first thing I did, and it worked out well.

[Moonglow]

18 hours ago, GotKeys said:

My instinct would be to swap the Jup-80 for the Fantom, you'll have more key real estate plus you'll have less reprogramming to do in both the keyboards and in your head/fingers as to what controllers (knobs and sliders) and sounds are where, just my $0.02

My instinct, as well, but a part of me wants to shake things up a bit. That is, getting out of my comfort zone to stimulate discovery and develop new/fresh sounds from a different starting point. Yes, I’m conflicted.

[kaptainkeys]

1 minute ago, Moonglow said:

My instinct, as well, but a part of me wants to shake things up a bit. That is, getting out of my comfort zone to stimulate discovery and develop new/fresh sounds from a different starting point. Yes, I’m conflicted.

The way I see it is also does the loss of 15 keys do anything to negatively impact your playing/programming?  For example if those extra 15 keys are being used for zones or samples in some songs and would now need to be mapped to elsewhere or require you to buy more gear or have extra patch changes within a song, I would only swap the JP-80 for the Fantom.  If that is something that doesn't bother you (as much as it would for me with my quasi ocd) than I would say go for it and get the Fantom 8.

[Moonglow]

19 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

...My opinion is that the Kronos is a better overall “primary” board still.

Can you expand on this a little? I apologize if you specifically addressed this in a previous post.

[Moonglow]

13 minutes ago, GotKeys said:

The way I see it is also does the loss of 15 keys do anything to negatively impact your playing/programming?  For example if those extra 15 keys are being used for zones or samples in some songs and would now need to be mapped to elsewhere or require you to buy more gear or have extra patch changes within a song, I would only swap the JP-80 for the Fantom.  If that is something that doesn't bother you (as much as it would for me with my quasi ocd) than I would say go for it and get the Fantom 8.

It would definitely be an adjustment. I do use a lot of splits, where those 15 keys come in handy.

 

BTW, I’m a little late with this, but welcome to the forum GotKeys! I’ve enjoyed reading your posts. 👍

[CEB]

This is the rig I want.  Basically swap my FA6 for a Fantom7.  The Kronos is heavy but it will remainy the main controller because SetList is still the best for patch control.  Fantom on top because I use the Roland pads a lot and I want the pads on the top board.   I have considered a Jupiter X but I would have to get a sampler like a SP404 but then the question is where do I stick the sampler and I hate extraneous off board doo-dads in the rig.    However I'm not playing enough post plague to cost justify getting a Fantom 7.

[kaptainkeys]

41 minutes ago, Moonglow said:

BTW, I’m a little late with this, but welcome to the forum GotKeys! I’ve enjoyed reading your posts. 👍

Thanks for the warm welcome, I've found this forum incredibly welcoming and the people here incredibly knowledgeable and helpful

[allan_evett]

20 hours ago, Moonglow said:

It would definitely be an adjustment. I do use a lot of splits, where those 15 keys come in handy.

 

 

Have seen a lot of good answers here that support both sides of the debate. Your above point does merit consideration, especially for stage performance. Missing 15 keys is a strong consideration for your stage rig.

But having an 88-key Fantom is also highly tempting; it's such a high-quality, expressive instrument, in all versions. The Kronos is still a monster keyboard - and granted, does have features not found on the Fantom, but I found the Fantom 8 to have a strong edge for expressive piano playing.

 

Maybe it's time for a complete, rig do-over. Sell one of the Kronos', and look for a remaining-stock Kronos 73; put that above a Fantom 8. You might find the 73 weighted action too heavy for synth work, though.  You could use the Kronos 61 temporarily while porting your Programs over to a Nautilus 73; the remaining homework being the re-do of your Combis. Could be a time-suck, however.

[kaptainkeys]

2 minutes ago, allan_evett said:

You could use the Kronos 61 temporarily while porting your Programs over to a Nautilus 73

Only major drawbacks with the Nautilus are the lack of front panel controls as well as the lack of aftertouch, which might be a deal breaker for some.

[Mighty Motif Max]

On 2/20/2022 at 2:15 PM, Moonglow said:

Can you expand on this a little? I apologize if you specifically addressed this in a previous post.

Sure thing. I think that the Kronos is a more fully-developed main board that is more versatile overall (sounds are subjective but in other ways). Here are the main reasons I think you'd be best off having the Kronos as your main board. I see zero reason to change to a Fantom 8 (especially since it's heavier as well, but I know you didn't want that factored in).

 

 

1. The Kronos keeps splits and layers when triggered over midi, while the Fantom cannot.

 

2. The set list feature on the Roland, called "scene chain", is not as nice as the Korg Set List setup IMO. It's usable for sure, but it's more cramped and doesn't have a lot of the features you'd expect it to have.

 

3. The Roland also stays completely in "Scene" mode all the time - so there's just more red tape in the way of just picking a sound or two when casually using it. If you want to have just a single sound, you still have to save a new Scene with just that one tone in it. Basically it's like having the Kronos stuck in Combi mode all the time. Much more button presses and menu diving to do what you would do in Program mode on the Kronos.

 

4. The Kronos has much better onboard recording facilities if you are into that as well; the Fantom has no linear sequencer, just a pattern-based sequencer.

 

5. A lot of functions are buried in places that don't make sense - not that Korg is particularly good in that area IMO (trying to match up modulation sources to controllers etc).

 

6. If you are hoping to use the sample pads a lot, just know that they are not velocity sensitive. They're basically good for triggering static samples or keyboard group switching stuff (which I don't mess with).

 

7. The biggest advantage of the Kronos, for me, is that it's a much more stable instrument. The Fantom is kind of like newer Apple operating systems - every OS update something seems to break. There have been some bugs, like one with the keyboard freezing when trying to load samples upon startup, that have existed since the very first OS version and have not been addressed. Here we are multiple OS's later, and the same issue is present.

 

8. USB midi controller support is hit-and-miss (for connecting an external USB controller to the Fantom) - half the time you won't get any CC's working (including CC64 sustain) even with notes working, depending on the controller.

 

9. The Virtual Tonewheel engine sounds great, but you cannot change, say, rotary speed from an external controller

 

10. The synth edit controls on the right side are handy, but they are not transmitted over midi. So, for example, if you want to record automation while you play for those parameters, you have to map your chosen parameter to a fader or knob for it to transmit over midi.

 

11. Polyphony gets eaten up quickly if you use non V-Piano pianos, which is sad. Be prepared to edit sounds down to the minimum you need to get the most out of the polyphony.

 

12. There are weird limitations on midi channels for certain sounds - you can't have V-Piano tones on any channel but Channel 1, and VTW (organ) sounds on any channel but Channel 2. At least Kurzweil lets you choose a KB3 channel; on the Fantom they are locked.

 

13. The aftertouch is nearly impossible to trigger - granted, I don't know how the Fantom 8 is in that regard, just the non-hammer action version.

 

14. Finally, if you at all use clavinets or electric pianos, the Fantom is not strong in either of those areas, even with the SuperNatural Rhodes and various old SRX-board based sounds. They're really pretty poor; my Krome was far superior ironically.

 

 

For further reading:

 

[RABid]

JMHO - The Kronos has the better organ. The Fantom has the better piano. Seems natural to put your 5 octave Kronos on top.

[AnotherScott]

45 minutes ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

10. The synth edit controls on the right side are handy, but they are not transmitted over midi.

 

What the... I never would have guessed that. Not just a DAW issue as you mention, but a missed opportunity for controlling soft synths.

 

OTOH, I do like the endless rotaries, for the ability to edit sounds without worrying about the whole "jump or catch" thing (or limited range). Also, along with the LEDs by the faders, they're useful indications of current settings (for internal sounds). I also like how the knobs under the screen are labeled on-screen with their current functions.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Those are favorites of mine too. It’s a weird mixture of awesome UI with absolutely terrible bits here and there.

[Moonglow]

4 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

Sure thing. I think that the Kronos is a more fully-developed main board that is more versatile overall (sounds are subjective but in other ways). Here are the main reasons I think you'd be best off having the Kronos as your main board. I see zero reason to change to a Fantom 8 (especially since it's heavier as well, but I know you didn't want that factored in).

 

 

1. The Kronos keeps splits and layers when triggered over midi, while the Fantom cannot.

 

2. The set list feature on the Roland, called "scene chain", is not as nice as the Korg Set List setup IMO. It's usable for sure, but it's more cramped and doesn't have a lot of the features you'd expect it to have.

 

3. The Roland also stays completely in "Scene" mode all the time - so there's just more red tape in the way of just picking a sound or two when casually using it. If you want to have just a single sound, you still have to save a new Scene with just that one tone in it. Basically it's like having the Kronos stuck in Combi mode all the time. Much more button presses and menu diving to do what you would do in Program mode on the Kronos.

 

4. The Kronos has much better onboard recording facilities if you are into that as well; the Fantom has no linear sequencer, just a pattern-based sequencer.

 

5. A lot of functions are buried in places that don't make sense - not that Korg is particularly good in that area IMO (trying to match up modulation sources to controllers etc).

 

6. If you are hoping to use the sample pads a lot, just know that they are not velocity sensitive. They're basically good for triggering static samples or keyboard group switching stuff (which I don't mess with).

 

7. The biggest advantage of the Kronos, for me, is that it's a much more stable instrument. The Fantom is kind of like newer Apple operating systems - every OS update something seems to break. There have been some bugs, like one with the keyboard freezing when trying to load samples upon startup, that have existed since the very first OS version and have not been addressed. Here we are multiple OS's later, and the same issue is present.

 

8. USB midi controller support is hit-and-miss (for connecting an external USB controller to the Fantom) - half the time you won't get any CC's working (including CC64 sustain) even with notes working, depending on the controller.

 

9. The Virtual Tonewheel engine sounds great, but you cannot change, say, rotary speed from an external controller

 

10. The synth edit controls on the right side are handy, but they are not transmitted over midi. So, for example, if you want to record automation while you play for those parameters, you have to map your chosen parameter to a fader or knob for it to transmit over midi.

 

11. Polyphony gets eaten up quickly if you use non V-Piano pianos, which is sad. Be prepared to edit sounds down to the minimum you need to get the most out of the polyphony.

 

12. There are weird limitations on midi channels for certain sounds - you can't have V-Piano tones on any channel but Channel 1, and VTW (organ) sounds on any channel but Channel 2. At least Kurzweil lets you choose a KB3 channel; on the Fantom they are locked.

 

13. The aftertouch is nearly impossible to trigger - granted, I don't know how the Fantom 8 is in that regard, just the non-hammer action version.

 

14. Finally, if you at all use clavinets or electric pianos, the Fantom is not strong in either of those areas, even with the SuperNatural Rhodes and various old SRX-board based sounds. They're really pretty poor; my Krome was far superior ironically.

 

 

For further reading:

 

Thank you so much for that, Mighty Motif Max. I appreciate the time you put into your thoughtful and detailed response. You provided valuable information that would have taken me forever to uncover, or at least longer than any 30-day return policy. 😀Thanks again! 👍👍

[TJ Cornish]

My rig for a long time has been Hammond XK-5 over Kronos88, but I picked up a Fantom 7 last fall. My thoughts as a live-only player:

 

 

The Kronos still does many things that no other keyboard on the planet can do - direct sample streaming from disk is very cool, and many sounds are great. The Korg RH3 is a fine action for general keys stuff, but is unusable for organ (IMO, obviously). The Fantom 8 action was just too dang heavy for me - even for piano, and even unusable-r for organ.

 

Sounds:

I’ve never loved the Kronos piano sounds - either too bright, too dull, or weird resonances here and there. I owned the hardware Korg CX-3 and it’s…fine. The Kronos version is equally…fine. I actually prefer the Fantom organ to the CX-3. I’m not going to argue that it’s more accurate or nuanced than the CX-3, but I find it sits nicely in a mix and cuts through in a way that just works for me. The CX-3 is a little muddier. Neither are in the same universe as the XK-5. On the piano side - I really, really like the VPiano. I had to do a fair bit of tweaking to get the velocity curve right (believe it or not I like “light” plus limiting the max velocity to about 118), but again, the VPiano does what I tell it to do in the mix and I don’t fight it like I feel like I have to with the Kronos.

 

I agree with Max that the EPianos are better on the Kronos, and I think I would go so far as saying that many categories of sounds are better on the Kronos, but probably the Fantom is different rather than worse most of the time.

 

Set list vs scene chain:

 

The Kronos set list mode in some ways is better than Fantom scene chain - you can write way more stuff and as the entries are on the screen you can label them there, and as the screen is central to the keyboard, it can be triggered with either hand. In some ways, I will argue that in some ways Fantom scene chain is better. My workflow on the Kronos is to have a set list with my songs alphabetized at the beginning of the list, and then for the gig I copy and paste the songs in order to the end of the set list where I have my working list of songs for the gig. This lets me recycle the set list entries from show to show.

 

On the Fantom, changing scenes is on the TR buttons on the right side of the board. The plus side is they are physical buttons and so you’re sure when you’ve pressed it, and I will argue setting up the scene chain is faster on the Fantom - you push TR button one, pick the scene, push TR button 2, pick the scene, etc. There is less paging back and forth as you can use the screen to pick the scenes and the buttons to set the slots. There is a big caveat here - there is no external librarian software for the Fantom, so if you reach some significant number of scenes, it’s very time consuming to alphabetize them on the Fantom - you basically have to shuffle and and rewrite everything to get it in order. While this is also true on the Kronos program/combi banks, either using the set list function like I laid out above and/or using one of several free 3rd party pieces of software, it’s a lot easier to re-sort your stuff.

 

Polyphony and other stuff:

 

IMO the polyphony thing is overblown. I have polyphony problems on the Kronos, too, and with VPiano, I have LESS trouble with the Fantom than the Kronos. Roland made a marketing decision to over-program their factory sounds. Turning off the nearly inaudible nuances gets you a lot of polyphony back. Do I wish they would have made the architecture more efficient in some ways (e.g. have mono things only take up one voice rather than everything being stereo) - sure, but honestly this isn’t a big deal.

 

The controls on the Fantom are a big part of why I bought it - the LED ladders on the faders are something I sorely missed when my OASYS died and I swapped to a Kronos. The pads are useful, and I would argue that not being velocity-sensitive makes no difference, as I have 76 other velocity-sensitive things that are arguably better when I need them.

 

I am not bothered by the MIDI limitations mentioned by other posters - it just isn’t my workflow.

 

The things that do bother me:

 

I run click from the keyboard to the band. The good news is it’s really easy to setup on the Fantom. The bad news is there are only a few metronome sounds if you want to use the built-in function (you can work around this with samples, but it’s a big pain).

 

The super big giant one is the horrific LFO tempo sync issue. The main LFOs have a button that says tempo sync, but it doesn’t phase lock to the main tempo; it free-runs at a similar rate. If you want to have sounds that go wah-wah in time, you can’t use the main LFO to do this as it will drift. I contacted Roland support - “as designed”. You can work around this by turning key trigger on which works for simple note patterns but can turn into a waterfall of independent LFO phases if you play a lot of notes, or you can use one of a few MFX objects that do actually sync to the internal MIDIClock, but then you lose your MFX slot for that sound. This is the one that kills me on the Fantom.

 

A lesser concern but still annoying - patch remain doesn’t work on the VPiano - even when you go from one scene with VPiano to another scene with the same VPiano. WHY!?!?!?

 

I bought the Fantom as the 80/20 board - when I don’t want to drag out the XK-5 plus the Kronos plus the laptop with replacement piano sound, the Fantom does a good enough job at everything that really matters that often I can get away with one board. This is really the central thing for me. The LED ladders allow me to swap between patch volume and organ control much better than on the Kronos. Due to the overly (IMO again) heavy action of the Fantom 8, the choice to go Fantom 7 was obvious. 

[Moonglow]

Thanks for that TJ Cornish! With the exception of the occasional studio project, I'm solidly a live player. I handle Set List mode of the Kronos same as you, having an alphabetized listing of all songs in a "master" set list, and then copying it to a new location to develop a customized set list for each show. Your evaluation makes me think I would prefer it over Scene Chain.

 

I too, have never been fond of the Krono's pianos (I use the Epic Grand in mine), and my strongest attraction to the Fantom 8 is the prospect of playing the V-Pianos from it's own keybed. So a couple of follow-up questions:

 

1. How do the V-Pianos play from the Kronos 88 keybed?

 

2. Could things be configured such that a V-Piano program (e.g., from a Fantom 7) can be played exclusively from the Kronos keybed, while playing other (i.e., non-piano) patches from the Fantom keybed? That is, the V-Piano would only make sounds using the Kronos keybed?

 

Thanks again!

 

 

 

 

[kaptainkeys]

16 minutes ago, Moonglow said:

2. Could things be configured such that a V-Piano program (e.g., from a Fantom 7) can be played exclusively from the Kronos keybed, while playing other (i.e., non-piano) patches from the Fantom keybed? That is, the V-Piano would only make sounds using the Kronos keybed?

You could probably do that by changing the global channel (e.g. 3) in the Fantom since V-Piano presets are locked to channel 1, and then set up a combi on the kronos with a zone to transmit on channel 1

[AnotherScott]

Nice writeup, TJ.

 

4 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

direct sample streaming from disk is very cool

 

I think I might pick that as the single most "unique" benefit of the Kronos. That and the Set List mode really differentiate it. (And I guess KARMA, but I never used that.)

  

4 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

The Korg RH3 is a fine action for general keys stuff, but is unusable for organ (IMO, obviously). The Fantom 8 action was just too dang heavy for me - even for piano, and even unusable-r for organ.

 

I'm not sure I could be happy with either one of them (though as I've said, I was fine with the RH3 on the SV1). 

 

4 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

I actually prefer the Fantom organ to the CX-3. I’m not going to argue that it’s more accurate or nuanced than the CX-3, but I find it sits nicely in a mix and cuts through in a way that just works for me. The CX-3 is a little muddier. Neither are in the same universe as the XK-5.

 

I'd be curious to know how easily/seamlessly one could integrate, say, VB3m from your smartphone into either one of these boards.

 

One thing that bugged me about CX3 on the Kronos was the ergonomics of it. I never used it much, so maybe some of this is addressable, but for example, for rotary, I want a footswitch to toggle rotary speed, and a panel light or screen indicator to tell me its current status. I didn't like the buttons for the percussion controls... those thin buttons that would butt right up against each other were hard to hit quickly and accurately, especially if the area were not well lit. And I seem to remember that the lights in the button didn't necessarily always align with whether or not that percussion function was engaged...? Maybe I'm misremembering. Either way, I wonder if the Fantom's clonewheel ergonomics may be better? Certainly the LED ladders next to the faders would be useful. In hindsight, when using the Kronos for a CX3 sound, it might have been beneficial to navigate off the Set List screen and to the CX3 visuals, where the on-screen display and touchscreen buttons may have been helpful, rather than relying on only the physical Kronos controls.

  

4 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

I really, really like the VPiano. I had to do a fair bit of tweaking to get the velocity curve right (believe it or not I like “light” plus limiting the max velocity to about 118),

 

I think preventing Roland pianos from triggering their highest velocities (or at least preventing them from doing it as easily) may often be a key to improving them. They just get so bright (even more apparent considering their starting points), and also probably contributes to the complaint of people finding them "metallic."

  

4 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

I agree with Max that the EPianos are better on the Kronos

 

I've consistently found Korg EPs superior to Roland's whether comparing Korg's high end EP-1 as you are here, or even comparing their low end models (e.g. Kross vs. Juno DS).

  

4 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

On the Fantom, changing scenes is on the TR buttons on the right side of the board. The plus side is they are physical buttons and so you’re sure when you’ve pressed it

 

Yes, even with a good on-screen system, I like the option of easily accessible, well labeled, discrete (not running into each other), highly visible (not black-on-black) buttons. Sometimes the more tactile experience is preferable, as you say, and it can be quicker, and it can be available when the screen is "busy" elsewhere. It could also be helpful on an outdoor gig where glare can make the screen hard to read.

 

4 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

The pads are useful, and I would argue that not being velocity-sensitive makes no difference, as I have 76 other velocity-sensitive things that are arguably better when I need them.

 

I agree, at least depending on usage. I'd like velocity sensitive pads for drums, but I have little need to do that anyway. The Casio MZ-X500 has velocity sensitive pads, and I actually turned the velocity sensitivity off because I was only using them for the occasional one-shot sample trigger, and for that function, it was better for it NOT to be velocity sensitive.

 

4 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

A lesser concern but still annoying - patch remain doesn’t work on the VPiano - even when you go from one scene with VPiano to another scene with the same VPiano. WHY!?!?!?. 

 

It would be nice if you could create a scene where a Part is specified as "Unchanged" -- that is, keep using the same sound that this Part already had, to prevent the unnecessary "unloading and reloading" of the same sound into the same part. Or, alternatively, the ability to create a Scene where a part is "locked", where that part won't change no matter what other Scene you invoke, until/unless you specifically unlock it. I've wished for this on the MODX, as well. 

4 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

the Fantom does a good enough job at everything that really matters that often I can get away with one board. This is really the central thing for me. The LED ladders allow me to swap between patch volume and organ control much better than on the Kronos. Due to the overly (IMO again) heavy action of the Fantom 8, the choice to go Fantom 7 was obvious. 

If I had to gig with just one board, and weight wasn't an issue, I think Fantom 7 and Kurzweil K2700 (or maybe Forte 7) would be my front runners, depending in part on whether I wanted a semi-weighted action that was still pretty playable for piano, or a hammer action that was still pretty playable for organ. (In a lower weight range, my pick would be the Kurzweil PC4-7.)

 

One thing I'd look for in a single-board scenario is, does the board let me do a split in such a way that, mid-song, I could easily change the sound on one side of the split, without causing any glitch to the sound I'm still playing with my other hand (as well as independently adjust its volume and octave). Seamless sound transitions alone do go a long way here, in that of course you can seamlessly switch from one split combination to another, but it does require that you have pre-setup both of your split combinations in advance. Sometimes I just like to grab sounds on the fly, as I need them. Obviously, with two boards, you can just keep playing one board while you change the sound on the other. But when you split a single keyboard, it's not always so easy to treat the two halves of it so independently. Kronos is weak at that. How is the Fantom?

 

 

[kaptainkeys]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

those thin buttons that would butt right up against each other were hard to hit quickly and accurately, especially if the area were not well lit.

That's one thing that the PC3 does better, the buttons are larger. farther apart, and are in line with the wheels, making them easy to align your fingers with